The White Council assaults Dol Guldur?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

The original idea of this topic came to me on this thread.
As we all know, in the year 2941 T.A. the White Council drove out the evil power from Mirkwood. This topic greatly interests me, so I thought that I'd try to put together what actually happened there at that time. If anyone feels interested, I'd like to see your opinions, or evidencies you bring to let more light in this story.

The questions to which I hope to find answers here are:

1. Did the Wise really, personally, come to Dol Guldur?
2. Who was actually in the White Council?
3. Were they all there in Dol Guldur, or someone stayed home?
4. Were they all alone in the forest, or did they bring an armed force with them?
5. If they did, whom did they bring? An Elvish commando from Lórien, or something else?
6. Was there actually any battle? Did Sauron flee before the attack, or during it?
7. How the battle looked like? Galadriel sings a song and half the wall of Dol Guldur's fortress crumbles down? Saruman shouts exorcisms and the spirit of Sauron flees? Or Glamdring swings above the heads of Orcs?

To make this clear and to keep up with the topic, I used the numbers to mark the questions, so if you are trying to answer any of the questions, please put the number in your post to show what you are replying to. Try also to support your meaning by quotes from the books, or just some evidence from the books (e.g. to answer #5: I surely know they didn't bring Beorn with them, since he was in the Battle of Five Armies by then, and even he didn't have any contact with anyone except Radagast before then), or at least tell that what you make is pure speculation or just a fan imagination (concerns mainly question #7, which is really there mainly for releasing our fantasy. Nevertheless, even that could be supported by some evidence - e.g. Gandalf can kill Goblins with lightings, as we know).

Hope this topic would be fun at least for someone

EDIT: Since I already started this topic with a nice lining-up of the answers, I'll keep here also a list of the current progress of research (wow, that sounds). This is mainly for that if anyone wanted just some answers, he wouldn't have to read through million posts to come to them. The list would be, of course, updated.

List of current progress in answering the questions:

1. No suggestions yet.
2. Solved: Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Círdan. Possibilities not yet closed: Glorfindel, less likely Erestor, Celeborn, Galdor.
3. No suggestions yet.
4. A suggestion about that they had a "fire support".
5. A suggestion that hey had elves with them to shoot escaping Orcs.
6. No suggestions yet.
7. Proven information that "the devices of Saruman" played main part in the battle. But what exactly they were is not sure.

[Thinlómien]

#2 My educated guess () would be Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Círdan, Elrond and Celeborn at least. Probably Radagast too. Maybe some others.

[radagastly]

#2:
Thinlómien:

#2 My educated guess () would be Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Círdan, Elrond and Celeborn at least. Probably Radagast too. Maybe some others.

To that list I would add Glorfindel (that's the main reason he was sent back to Middle Earth in the first place) and possibly Gildor (when he wasn't busy wandering with his company.) Maybe Thranduil as well, though I often wonder why he was out partying in the woods while the White Council was preparing for battle within his own borders.

#4: My guess would be they brought a small contingent of elvish soldiers to clean up any fleeing orcs and contain the skirmish. Most of the Necromancers troups would have been sent to fortify Mordor by then, since Sauron was intending on going there all along.

Not sure about any of the other questions. This is all theory anyway. I don't think Tolkien provided many details on this particular chapter.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Thanks for your addittions, Lommy, radagastly!

I think I have one more thing to add here:
#2

Originally Posted by OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE

But at length the Shadow returned and its power increased; and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír.

This makes clear these members: Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Círdan. Although Círdan was surely an important figure, I always considered him to shrink to a picture of the "Old Man and the Sea" after the Last Alliance; nevertheless, the statement that he was a part of the Council makes clear that he must have at least once wandered at least to Rivendell (where the 2851 Council was held, as is said in UT, "Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire").
I feel sorry for Radagast, because as much as I'd like to see him participating on the Council, the quote above suggests that no other wizards were in the Council. Since the Council does not equal to "The Wise" ("The Wise" is a more general group of Istari and Eldar), I think Radagast is out.

Glorfindel. I am not sure, radagastly, where you get that information that the fact that he was sent back has any connection with the Council - there surely were many who could have been in the Council and were not.
But I agree with putting Glorfindel on the list. The black horse, eh? (wait, his horse was white) Maybe he's not the outsider after all. In my opinion, from what we know, we have more evidence pointing that he might have been a member than, let's say, Celeborn. First, he was a Noldo, and a very powerful one, indeed. Of course, as we know, in Tolkien's world, power always does not mean being fit for something. But he was certainly active at least on the Council of Elrond. And from there I'd serve with one quote:

'Then,' said Glorfindel, 'let us cast it into the deeps, and so make the lies of Saruman come true. For it is clear now that even at the Council his feet were already on a crooked path. He knew that the Ring was not lost for ever, but wished us to think so; for he began to lust for it for himself. Yet oft in lies truth is hidden: in the Sea it would be safe.'

We might notice some interesting things in Glorfindel's speech here. I know my assumptions are based on mere words, but that's the best we have thus far. Anyway, you must judge it for yourselves. The first thing is, it seems to me that Glorfindel speaks about the (White) Council in a very familiar tone. Second, more important, that he says "Council" in one sentence, and right after that he says "he wished us to think so". This may mean "us good guys", but I don't think it was spoken openly of the Ring before the council of Elrond, so if Glorfindel weren't present when Saruman spoke about the Ring (i.e. on the Council), he impressively quickly adapted himself to the position of "us" from the Council. This indicates to me that he actually knew about Saruman's speech to the Council before, implying that he was there when it was spoken, thus, being a part of the Council.

Thranduil&co. I don't think Thranduil was there. As radagastly said, he is never mentioned to have anything with the Council (and at minimum in the year of Dol Guldur assault he prepared for the Battle of the Five Armies and didn't seem to care of any Necromancers). Also, in the quote above it is said that there were "other lords of the Eldar". Eldar, at least in Third Age (of which we speak), meant only Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri. Thranduil, although being of Sindarin heritage, was not a lord of Eldar, but lord of Avari. This would, I think, leave all Thranduils out.

Galdor. I am very reluctant about this one, although radagastly implies he might have been there. He was sent to the Council of Elrond "as an errand from Círdan", something like his deputee, since Círdan couldn't have come personally. In my opinion, he's not doing exceptionally good job (in comparision to, let's say, Erestor - see below). If Galdor was a part of the Council, then he must have a very feeble mind, because he seems to be totally "out" in some quite obvious things. And he adresses the others "the Wise"; therefore, apparently not counting himself as one of them (although, the Wise does not equal the Council; but I think all of the Council were Wise, but not all Wise were in the Council, not vice versa):

The Wise may have good reason to believe that the halfling's trove is indeed the Great Ring of long debate, unlikely though that may seem to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?

So in my opinion, not Galdor, he's a mere emissary of Círdan.

Erestor, on the other hand, is something different. He is the "foremost of Elrond's counsellors", and he has some quite good addittions to the topic during the Council of Elrond. He is really active and (in contrary to Galdor) seems to know what he's speaking about, though there is no real evidence of him being in the White Council. But since we know the 2851 Council took place in Rivendell, it is possible to imagine him there (as well as Glorfindel).

The last is the most problematic. Celeborn. Well, this is hard. The fact that Galadriel is in the Council (even summoning it first) does not necessarily mean her mate was there as well. I'm waiting if anyone to support or disqualify him. So far, the best evidence of him being in the Council is that he is an "Eldar lord" (and we don't have too many Eldar lords here). But the fact that Galadriel in Lórien speaks to the Fellowship about her first summoning of the Council, her mate is sitting right beside her and she does not mention anything like "...and Lord Celeborn was there too..." speaks against him for me.

[Thinlómien]

But Celeborn was in some way close with Elrond and Gandalf, or that's the feeling I get reading the part in LotR where they all sit like stones in tye night and discuss the past times. I think that implies that Celeborn had had plenty of dealings with Gandalf and Elrond (which would be politically wise and which the Lórien-part in LotR implies) and thus I see no reason for him to be excluded from the council.

[mhagain]

I have serious difficulties seeing Celeborn on the Council. For all that he may be accounted one of the Wise, he doesn't really show it when the Fellowship first arrive in Lothlorien.

There's speculation in Parma Endorion that Glorfindel might be a Vanya. "Few among men have spoken with them" in the Silmarillion writings certainly implies that some among men have had the opportunity to speak with them, whether that is AElfwine and similar figures, or men at the War of Wrath, or something entirely different, is another matter. If he is one, then he's almost certainly a candidate for the Council.

As for Cirdan, I personally think his lot was to stay at the Havens. Even at the Council of Elrond he only sent a representative, when it might be reasonably imagined that he would have come himself.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lac:

Glorfindel. I am not sure, radagastly, where you get that information that the fact that he was sent back has any connection with the Council - there surely were many who could have been in the Council and were not.

I didn't mean to suggest that Glorfindel was sent back to Middle Earth specifically to join the Council of the Wise, but that his purpose was similar to that of the Istari, except with less innate power but more power to act. He was there to help in the fight against Sauron, else he would probably not have been asked to go. He may have volunteered, of course, to leave the West and return for a time, but in the end, it's the same. He was there to fight and advise in the struggle against Sauron, that's all.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But Celeborn was in some way close with Elrond and Gandalf, or that's the feeling I get reading the part in LotR where they all sit like stones in tye night and discuss the past times. I think that implies that Celeborn had had plenty of dealings with Gandalf and Elrond (which would be politically wise and which the Lórien-part in LotR implies) and thus I see no reason for him to be excluded from the council.

Where is the passage where Celeborn and Elrond and Gandalf discuss past times? I don't remember this. I guess they all assembled for the crowning of Aragorn, but I don't remember anything about this...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Where is the passage where Celeborn and Elrond and Gandalf discuss past times? I don't remember this. I guess they all assembled for the crowning of Aragorn, but I don't remember anything about this...

It's in the chapter "Many Partings", RotK, and takes place after the coronation, on the way back to Rivendell and the Shire. The "discussion" took place silently; the passage is one of the main sources for the use of Ósanwe.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by radagastly

I didn't mean to suggest that Glorfindel was sent back to Middle Earth specifically to join the Council of the Wise, but that his purpose was similar to that of the Istari, except with less innate power but more power to act. He was there to help in the fight against Sauron, else he would probably not have been asked to go. He may have volunteered, of course, to leave the West and return for a time, but in the end, it's the same. He was there to fight and advise in the struggle against Sauron, that's all.

Well, this would make sense then. Yes, I agree and now thinking of it, I really see Glorfindel very likely to be a part of the Council. People (and elves) are not sent back for nothing, and if he was there to battle against Sauron in some very important way, it would be quite strange to act "solo" and not to coordinate (at least in the main things) with the rest of the Wise.

That Celeborn thing... well, I think the proof is still less solid than Glorfindel's. Although being head of the Galadhrim, he still didn't participate on many things in which Galadriel did. I would like to see something of at least 99% value of putting him to the Council.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by radagastly

his purpose was similar to that of the Istari, except with less innate power but more power to act.

This seems to be a good summary of Glorfindel. His main previous role was in 1975 of the 3rd Age where he drives the Witch King away. Even though the Istari were on hand at the time, they clearly were not leading armies against the forces of Sauron...

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

It's in the chapter "Many Partings", RotK, and takes place after the coronation, on the way back to Rivendell and the Shire. The "discussion" took place silently; the passage is one of the main sources for the use of Ósanwe.

Yep, forgot about this. Very nice passage, especially the touch about a passerby perhaps thinking they had come across some "grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands..."

[Elmo]

Just a point about what the White Council had to face in Dol Goldor.

After reading about the fate of Elves after they die in Morgoth's Ring it's clear that Sauron wasn't called the Necromancer for nothing. He controlled the spirits of evil Elves who had refused to enter the Halls of Mandos. I'm guessing Dol Guldor would be an abode of many of them. What form would these demons take? I'm guessing Galadriel would have to use Elvish magic to combat them in some way. I don't think even without Sauron there you could have taken Dol Guldor just with a mundane force.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Really, hewhoarisesinmight? That's indeed very interesting... if you have anything more you could add about that, I'd certainly like to hear about it... hmm... seems I have to try to somehow (well, yes, but how) obtain Morgoth's Ring and all those books as well...

Anyway, to the topic. Someone has said here that the answer to #7 is possible only as a speculation. Well, not actually:

Originally Posted by Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond

But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.

So it was "by the devices of Saruman". Whatever evil elf-spirits might have been there, everything was accomplished by the devices of Saruman.

The only question is, what "the devices of Saruman" mean. I don't think only some "blasting fire" would be enough to drive Sauron off. Should "the devices" be interpretated only as "plans"? Or did he use some of the Enemy's devices, when he was studying them for so long? Not that the Council would allow him, for example, use Uruk-hai (of course he didn't have them yet at that time)... but maybe something more "subtle", like the "blasting fire", would be good...

Any ideas?

[Elmo]

Well an Elf who refused to join Mandos was evil so they just drifted about without a body. It was deemed dangerous to communicate with said spirits as you be in peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies, and also they might take control of the living person's body and become, zombies I suppose. Its very fascinating as Tolkien lays the blame of all those bad stories about Elves you hear in folklore due to these spirits. Like children being kidnapped and the like...

Anyway Sauron was a master of communicating with these evil elven ghosts and taught this trick to followers. It is therefore not unlikely Sauron created Elvish zombie type things by giving these 'houseless' Elves what they desired - a body.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Its very fascinating as Tolkien lays the blame of all those bad stories about Elves you hear in folklore due to these spirits.

Hm, I don't think I follow. Can you be more specific?

[Elmo]

Thus it may be seen to those who in latter days hold that the Elves are dangerous to Men and that it is folly or wickedness to see converse with them do not speak without reason

Aelfwine says this and you can't speak to these Elves becuase they delude you and take your bodies. That's why Elves got a bad name throughout the ages.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In defense of Radagast: elsewhere (can't find it at the moment) Tolkien glosses the White Council as 'the Istari and the chief Eldar,' which presumably would include Radagast, as well as the Ithryn Luin if they were still around. And in The Hobbit Gandalf went to a 'gathering of the White Wizards,' which implies a number larger than two.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

In defense of Radagast: elsewhere (can't find it at the moment) Tolkien glosses the White Council as 'the Istari and the chief Eldar,' which presumably would include Radagast, as well as the Ithryn Luin if they were still around. And in The Hobbit Gandalf went to a 'gathering of the White Wizards,' which implies a number larger than two.

Of course, this I thought at the start as well. It is at the Appendix B in LotR around the year 1000 Third Age "The Wise (Istari and foremost Eldar)...". But unfortunately, I later found out that in "OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE" it is said more precise who they were, and it does not mention ol' Raddy at all (cf. above). Which is really a shame.

And also, in the Hobbit, the term "wizards" probably include the elves as well. After all, Galadriel is referred even in LotR that way. From the point of view of "common people", the elves were all wizards.

[skip spence]

I was wondering about the White Counsil the other day, regarding the Hobbit movies...

I was thinking about the time when the White Counsil ousted the Necromancer from Dul Guldur. How did they manage this? I know that Sauron just feigned resistance and then pulled back to give his enemies a false sense of security and to return to Mordor. But with which forces did the WC attack Dol Guldur with? For all they knew they were in for a very difficult siege with uncertain outcome, and must have brought a strong host with siege capabilities and materiel, if we presume Dol Guldur was a fortified stronghold with plenty of men and god knows what to defend it. Or maybe Dol Guldur wasn't a strong fortress at all?

So who do you reckon partook in this attack? The elves of Lorien? The elves of Rivendell? The Elves of Mirkwood? The rangers? Other men than the dunedain is out of the question I think, and their numbers are surely too small to pose a serious military theat anyway. And I find it hard to believe that Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan could or would dare threaten Sauron's stronghold unaided.

Any thoughts?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I started a thread going along similar lines quite some time ago (oh my, it's been over a year! That's just horrible, it seems to me it was just a while ago), here it is. You can look there on what people posted and even post what you think about things on the topic.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for that link, Legate - since both threads have the same basic topic, I will merge them as soon as this notice has been seen.

[skip spence]

^That's fine, you do that.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What about Celebrian? She was still around when the Council was founded: daughter of Galadriel, wife of Elrond.

[Gordis]

I don't think Celebrian or Arwen were on the Council. Celeborn, on the other hand, I think, was there all right.

Also, as I have just read the thread, I noticed a mistake in the first post:

Possibilities not yet closed: Glorfindel, less likely Erestor, Celeborn, Galdor.

Actually rhadagastly proposed Gildor (Inglorion) not Galdor. Galdor, indeed, seems to be a mere envoy of Cirdan, but Gildor was Lord of the Noldor, a Calaquendi Elf, normally dwelling in Rivendell. I think he was on the White Council.

Also thinking of this quote

OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
But at length the Shadow returned and its power increased; and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír.

I would say that Glorfindel certainly was there, likely Erestor, and maybe a couple more Elf Lords from Rivendell. Glorfindel says:

There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south.

I suppose you have to be a Calaquendi Elf to ride against a nazgul. Glorfindel alone took the most probable road, but two more Elf lords were sent north and South. Here are 2 more guys for the White Council.

Actually I think the Council counted numerous members, most of whom followed Saruman over Gandalf. The ones listed in the first post (Galadriel, Elrond, Círdan, Glorfindel) would likely vote for Gandalf, but note: the majority was always for Saruman. I imagine Celeborn usually voting against his spouse. Likely some members were more or less nominal, and didn't attend every meeting. I think Radagast was a member, but not a very active one, preferring his home at Rhosgobel to the talk of politics. Cirdan was likely a rare guest as well, maybe sending a representative instead.

And no Thranduil - nobody called him to the White Council of 2941, he was at home at this time. And Mirkwood had tense relations with "the Wise", especially Noldorin Elves since Oropher's times. Moreover, Thranduil got no Ring to defend his land and must have felt frustrated.

[Nazgûl-king]

I always thought all five of the Istari were on the White Council. I think Celeborn, Gildor (Inglorion), Glorfindel and Erestor are also possible.

[ArathornJax]

According to Of the Rings of Power in the Silmarillion Gandalf and Saruman were the Istari on the Council along with "Elrond, Cirdan and Galaderial along with other Lords of the Eldar."

I think based on that we know for sure who was on it as has been posted. I would also agree that Galdor and Erestor were there as they were on the Council at Rivendell. Other than that I would say it is pure speculation.

In terms of the attack on Dol Guldur, I am believe this assault was on Sauron by the members of the Council, and not a physical attack with an army on the fortress. From below we know that the purpose was to force Sauron out of Dol Guldur and they did that. However the fortress remained (see below for more of this).

I looked at the Peoples of Middle Earth from HOME and did not see any reference to the attack. Again, the source I have found is in The Silmarillion in the same chapter Of the Rings of Power. There it says that Curunir (Saruman) wanting to prohibit Sauron from having free access to searching Gladden Fields and the River Anduin which were next to Dol Guldur consented to the attack. It says:

"Therefore for the last time, he aided the Council, and they put forth their strength; and they assaulted Dol Guldur, and drove Sauron from his hold,"

I wonder how Saruman aided the Council? However the verse "put forth their strength" to me sounds like they used their personal strength to attack, not an army.

As I further reflected on this, and that the text also mentions that Sauron had perceived what the Council was going to do and so this was really a "feint" allowing Sauron to return to Mordor (the nine Ringwraiths had already left to prepare for their Master's return), and whether the Council had used their personal strength to assault Dol Guldur, or led a force that attacked met I had to look further. So I did and I feel good that this was an attack of personal strength against Sauron because Dol Guldur was not thrown down in 2941, and remained standing until Celeborn took it after Sauron's defeat and Galadrial came forth and threw down its walls according to Unfinished Tales and Appendix A. If the Council had actually physically assaulted Dol Guldur in 2941 with themselves and an army, I would have imagined they would have done this at this point to prevent Sauron from having a stronghold to the north of Mordor), Sauron allowed them to "win" since it met his purposes. The next year the fortress was again occupied by a Ringwraith and evil returned to Mirkwood.

I could accept the Council physically attacking the fortress with an army, if we can find evidence on why they did not destroy it at that time, or even speculation based on something in the writings.

So, where am I on the questions?

1. Did the Wise really, personally, come to Dol Guldur? I don't believe so. I think they attacked from somewhere near, which would probably point to Lorien. It took a final victory by Celeborn after Sauron was defeated for Galadrial to come forth and throw down the walls, lifting the shadow from the forest of Mirkwood, which was then renamed Greenwood the Great. This may also be what Galadrial refers to when she tells Frodo that Sauron suspects that she has one of the three Elven rings but is not sure. If the attack was made from Lorien, this may explain one reason Sauron is suspcious of her.
2. Who was actually in the White Council? We know according to the Silmarillion that Elrond, Cirdan, Galadrial, Saruman and Gandalf were, along with other Lords of the Eldar. Anything beyond this is speculation at this point.
3. Were they all there in Dol Guldur, or someone stayed home? I believe they all were there except perhaps for Cirdan. He seems to like the oceanside a lot and I thought I read somewhere that he would not leave the Havens. That is speculation and would require me to do some research again.
4. Were they all alone in the forest, or did they bring an armed force with them?
See above. I believe they were alone in their attack per the fact the fortress remained standing.
5. If they did, whom did they bring? An Elvish commando from Lórien, or something else? Well, no one. If they did bring someone, I'm sure Haldir led an Elven force from Lorien with perhaps the sons of Elrond being involved. Might make a good piece of fan fiction.
6. Was there actually any battle? Did Sauron flee before the attack, or during it?
I think as the attack started Sauron departed. Once he departed, the evil things like Orcs fled since there was no leadership (and this seems to be a natural reaction for Orcs when their leaders depart or retreat.
7. How the battle looked like? Galadriel sings a song and half the wall of Dol Guldur's fortress crumbles down? Saruman shouts exorcisms and the spirit of Sauron flees? Or Glamdring swings above the heads of Orcs?
Saruman used some of his "devices" but we do not know what they were. I don't think they were anything to blow up the fortress or it would have been eliminated per above. I think these devices were something he discovered in his studying of the rings, and he revealed it so he could get what he wanted, Sauron out of the Anduin and Gladden Fields areas.

Just some thoughts.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also, as I have just read the thread, I noticed a mistake in the first post:
Actually rhadagastly proposed Gildor (Inglorion) not Galdor. Galdor, indeed, seems to be a mere envoy of Cirdan, but Gildor was Lord of the Noldor, a Calaquendi Elf, normally dwelling in Rivendell. I think he was on the White Council.

Oh, I see I must have misread it back then. Anyway, even concerning Gildor... he was a Noldo, that's true, but that does not automatically mean he was on the Council. He does not seem to me to be much of the "Council type". Remember it was an "organisation" of rather "political" nature, so to say. Gildor, at least to me, did not seem to be the type of a person who'd meddle into institutions such as this. To go and watch the stars, to make a pilgrimage to the White Towers and look at the Sea, to sing to Elbereth, but in the Council, he would say "yes" and "no" on everything... (although that actually would be an argument for his presence. He would be one of those hesitating who'd eventually help Saruman by not saying their opinion aloud, or not holding to it).

Originally Posted by Gordis

I suppose you have to be a Calaquendi Elf to ride against a nazgul. Glorfindel alone took the most probable road, but two more Elf lords were sent north and South. Here are 2 more guys for the White Council.

True. But once again, being a powerful Calaquendi does not equate being in the Council. It would need to be judged depending on who these two (or more) were as individuals. Surely not every powerful warrior needed to be in the White Council (quite the opposite). And personally I don't think the Council had more than, let's say, ten members (cca). It was no Roman Senate.

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

I always thought all five of the Istari were on the White Council.

Well, even if we relativised the quote suggesting that only Saruman and Gandalf were there, at least with Alatar and Pallando there will be the problem that they might have disappeared to the East before the Council was ever formed in the first place; and that's very likely. Had the Council existed by the time they left to the East, it will be probably the Council that would have sent them. But as far as we know, it was Saruman's ("wilful") act. It's also possible some "proto-council" had their hands in sending them to the East, but from how I read it, it seems to me indeed more like a "private" action. In any case, I believe the two were not in any Council, simply because it did not yet exist when they were still around (although I'm sure they would have been in it if they had the chance).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

In terms of the attack on Dol Guldur, I am believe this assault was on Sauron by the members of the Council, and not a physical attack with an army on the fortress. From below we know that the purpose was to force Sauron out of Dol Guldur and they did that. However the fortress remained (see below for more of this).
(...)
So I did and I feel good that this was an attack of personal strength against Sauron because Dol Guldur was not thrown down in 2941, and remained standing until Celeborn took it after Sauron's defeat and Galadrial came forth and threw down its walls according to Unfinished Tales and Appendix A. If the Council had actually physically assaulted Dol Guldur in 2941 with themselves and an army, I would have imagined they would have done this at this point to prevent Sauron from having a stronghold to the north of Mordor), Sauron allowed them to "win" since it met his purposes. The next year the fortress was again occupied by a Ringwraith and evil returned to Mirkwood.
(...)
Saruman used some of his "devices" but we do not know what they were. I don't think they were anything to blow up the fortress or it would have been eliminated per above. I think these devices were something he discovered in his studying of the rings, and he revealed it so he could get what he wanted, Sauron out of the Anduin and Gladden Fields areas.

You bring a good point that Dol Guldur's fortress very probably was not destroyed. However, I don't think not destroying the fortress does not exclude the possibility of an armed attack. The attackers might have came to Dol Guldur, stormed the gates, run inside, destroy all that came in the way, but after Sauron left and the Orcs and all other creatures fled, they considered their mission fulfiled (we know they did) and left the empty fortress in the woods alone. Years later, after Sauron's final demise, they did not repeat this mistake and destroyed Dol Guldur just for the sake of it. (And there's also the possibility that Galadriel at that time acted wiser than Saruman before, as Saruman was surely the one in lead of the attack, and maybe when Galadriel said they should uncover the dungeons of Dol Guldur and destroy the fortress, he said "Nonsense, we are going home" and that was it.)

[Sardy]

Three things that I would love to know more about would be:

1. Was there any discussion, debate or verbal confrontation between the White Council and Sauron? Possibly before the military "assault" on Dol Guldur was launched?

2. (Apologies if this had already been addressed, I'm still reading through the thread...) Did the White Council realize that they were dealing with Sauron? Or did they think that they were driving out a previously unknown threat (i.e., "The Necromancer")? Was their goal to utterly defeat Sauraon/Necromancer? Drive him out of Greenwood? Or simply just to post-pone his inevitable re-emergence in M-e?

3. When Gandalf arrived at Dol Guldur, did he explain his tardiness to the rest of the White Council in something along the lines of, "Sorry I'm late... I was just creatively re-interpreting my Istari mandate of not directly interfering by arranging the murder of (the last) dragon and instigating a War of Five Armies?"

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Sardy

1. Was there any discussion, debate or verbal confrontation between the White Council and Sauron? Possibly before the military "assault" on Dol Guldur was launched?

You mean, any "diplomacy talks" or such things? Not sure how it would've looked like. Though maybe... well, I don't think there is anything about it. Maybe in HoME, if ever.

2. (Apologies if this had already been addressed, I'm still reading through the thread...) Did the White Council realize that they were dealing with Sauron? Or did they think that they were driving out a previously unknown threat (i.e., "The Necromancer")? Was their goal to utterly defeat Sauraon/Necromancer? Drive him out of Greenwood? Or simply just to post-pone his inevitable re-emergence in M-e?

They knew it was Sauron since Gandalf visited Dol Guldur for the second time. Their goal was to get rid of him - definitely to prevent him from rising, to drive him away from Mirkwood, and they counted on at least diminishing his power and stopping him for several hundred or thousand years to come.

3. When Gandalf arrived at Dol Guldur, did he explain his tardiness to the rest of the White Council in something along the lines of, "Sorry I'm late... I was just creatively re-interpreting my Istari mandate of not directly interfering by arranging the murder of (the last) dragon and instigating a War of Five Armies?"

He arrived on time - and not to Dol Guldur, but to the Council, possibly Lórien. That can be concluded from his words:

Originally Posted by UT, The Quest for Erebor

I had to be with the White Council in August at the latest, or Saruman would have his way and nothing would be done.

Of course he didn't know that Saruman wanted to attack as well already, but that's a side issue.

[ianintheuk]

I am surprised reading this that there is any confusion over Celeborn i.e. was he/was he not a member of the White council. you only have to check the Lord of the Rings itself to see confirmation that he must have been a member.

Ref Page 357 of the Harper Collins 50th Anniversary edition (Chapter "the mirror of Galadriel")

Galadriel says ' For the lord of the Galadhrim (Celeborn) is accounted the wisest of the elves of Middle-Earth'

It would be strange indeed if the white council (of the wise) excluded the wisest elf of all and husband of one of its members !!!!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by ianintheuk

Galadriel says ' For the lord of the Galadhrim (Celeborn) is accounted the wisest of the elves of Middle-Earth'

It would be strange indeed if the white council (of the wise) excluded the wisest elf of all and husband of one of its members !!!!

There is no "confusion", as you put it. It would be likely, yes (although there is the argument I mentioned before - although it has probably as much value as the one you mention). But the point is that there is not explicitely written anywhere that he was a member of the Council. Strange it would be indeed, but even with your quote you can't say 100% "it is like that". Someone may still disagree and you'll have no bulletproof argument to convince him.

[Groin Redbeard]

#3 Gandalf and Saruman are the ones that I would think that had to have been there. We know that Saruman had to have been there with his devices. Gandalf had actually been inside Dol Goldur before, so he would be a great asset.

Elrond would not be as likely to go as others, his strength was in council not of war, and Galadriel and Celeborn seem the same. If any elf were to go I think that Glorfindel would be the one. What do you guys think?

#6 I think that we could all take it for granted that there was indeed a battle. Gandalf spoke of how they drove Sauron out of Dol Goldur. I seem to imagine as Dol Goldure as a miniature Barad-Dur and I would imagine that his spirit was cast out after the tower was destroyed.

[Gordis]

I also like this thread. So many interesting questions.

#1 Did the Wise really, personally, come to Dol Guldur?
I guess Saruman was in charge + Gandalf + some armed Elves, led quite likely by Glorfindel, - yes, Gloin. (for Glorfindel used to be the one who had led the combined forces of Lorien and Rivendell to the battle against Angmar back in 1975)

#2 Who was actually in the White Council?
I think in full it may have counted up to 12-15 members, some of whom (like Gildor and Radagast) had long lost interest in politics and rarely attended. Elves, after all, became more and more disinterested in temporal matters.
IMO, for sure there were: Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Cirdan, Glorfindel. Likely :Erestor + a couple Calaquendi from Rivendell, Gildor Inglorion, Radagast.

#3 Were they all there in Dol Guldur, or someone stayed home?
Most stayed home, I think. I guess it were only Saruman + Gandalf + Glorfindel leading the army who crossed the River. It might also explain why Dol Guldur was not destroyed after it was taken. Saruman was always most interested not only in Ring-lore but in other "foul crafts and devices of the Enemy". Likely he wished to search Dol Guldur thoroughly on his own.

#4 Were they all alone in the forest, or did they bring an armed force with them?
They did, I think.
#5 If they did, whom did they bring? An Elvish commando from Lórien, or something else?
Yes, an Elvish army from Lorien + maybe some Elves from Rivendell. No Thranduil's subjects, no Men.

#6 Was there actually any battle? Did Sauron flee before the attack, or during it?
I think Sauron fled before the battle. I think he saw them crossing the River. He may have had the Palantir already, if the Witch-King were kind enough to send it to Sauron before the latter returned to Mordor. Anyway, he had his Eye and he undoubtedly had scouts watching the river.

#7 How the battle looked like?
I think Lorien army approached, killing some orcs not fast enough to flee, then Saruman "put forth his strength" singing some incantations, but found no opposition. The fortress was empty. They entered, but Saruman told them not to touch a thing.

[alatar]

I found it fascinating - must have missed it the first hundred readings - that Gandalf visited the pits of Dol Guldur multiple times. He was there so frequently that surely some thought that he worked there, and so never questioned his presence.

But I did have a question. When Gandalf and/or the White Council were sitting around trying to figure out what this new power that had blackened the Greenwood was, just what were the possibilities? I think that they may have considered the Úlairi, but if not these, who or what else could have inspired the title, "The Necromancer?" Surely the Wise had a short list of interesting persons.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by alatar

When Gandalf and/or the White Council were sitting around trying to figure out what this new power that had blackened the Greenwood was, just what were the possibilities? I think that they may have considered the Úlairi, but if not these, who or what else could have inspired the title, "The Necromancer?" Surely the Wise had a short list of interesting persons.

(TA 1100 The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.) Tale of Years

For a thousand years (TA 1100 until TA 2060-63) the Wise thought that Dol Guldur's master was one of the Nine. It looks like nobody had objections to a lone nazgul living in the vicinity.

Personally, I suppose that given all the problems they have had with the Witch-King of Angmar (whose identity as the Lord of the Nazgul long remained hidden), it might be that they took the WK for Sauron returned and overlooked "a nazgul" in Mirkwood?

Anyway, by 2060, the Nine in Minas Morgul were probably all counted. So the question remained: Who was the tenth guy in Mirkwood?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Anyway, by 2060, the Nine in Minas Morgul were probably all counted. So the question remained: Who was the tenth guy in Mirkwood?

It just strikes me as odd as well, as you'd think that Gandalf et al would be able to detect one of the Nine pretty easily. Why all of the snooping around and spying? Surely a few elves and wizards could clean house, as it were, if it were simply one (or all) of the Nine.

But if it weren't one of the Nazgul, who else in Middle Earth could it be?

[Kuruharan]

It just strikes me as odd as well, as you'd think that Gandalf et al would be able to detect one of the Nine pretty easily. Why all of the snooping around and spying? Surely a few elves and wizards could clean house, as it were, if it were simply one (or all) of the Nine.

I'm not sure I agree.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "detect". Detect isn't the same thing as identify.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not sure I agree.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "detect". Detect isn't the same thing as identify.

I agree. Again, my question is that members of the vaunted White Council get butterflies in their tummies over this new 'power' that required the changing of the maps (cross out 'Green,' add 'Mirk'). They detected something, and so set out to identify it. What dowsing rods were taken on the trip? Wizard detectors, maia detectors, Ulari detectors, Balrog detectors (the 2.0 models that detect both winged and wingless)...

What were the possibilities?