Mouth of Sauron at Erebor ?

[The Might]

As I was reading through another thread, I suddently came across this quote:

'Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dain, but not from Moria - from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dain to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship...
'As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this,' he said: 'that you should find this thief,' such was his word, 'and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever. Find only news of the thief, whether he lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship from the Lord. Refuse, and things will not seem so well.'~The Council of Elrond

Could it be that Mouth of Sauron was sent to Erebor to deal with the Dwarves ? Are there any indications that he was the one sent ? Or was it someone else ?

[Kuruharan]

I think it was more likely a Nazgul from Dul Guldur. It was a long way for the Mouth to travel three times, Dul Guldur was closer. The reaction of the Dwarves was also rather profound for an ordinary Man (because that is essentially what the Mouth was).

[Boromir88]

I always thought it was a Nazgul too (although it can't be for certain). I'll get to that more in a bit. Aye, but first:

The reaction of the Dwarves was also rather profound for an ordinary Man (because that is essentially what the Mouth was).~Kuru

But the Mouth wasn't really your ordinary man. When we are first introduced to him he is actually described as being like a Ringwraith:

The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man.~The Black Gate Opens

Though the Mouth truly was a man, he was in some ways like a Ringwraith. However, I doubt the Mouth could inspire the fear into people the way Ringwraiths did.

The wraiths relied heavily upon fear:

Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless.~Letter 210

This messenger certainly put fear in the dwarves:

'At this we were greatly troubled, and we gave no answer. And then his fell voice was lowered, and he would have sweetened it if he could.'

'At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered.'

'Heavy have the hearts of our chieftains been since that night. We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit.'~The Council of Elrond

It could be that the Dwarves were scared just in the fact that they denied Sauron's offer of peace and they were troubled about what was to happen next. However, I don't think so, as emphasis always seems to be placed on the 'fell voice' of the messenger. Also there is the 'hiss of snakes' which we know is another distinct quality of the Ringwraiths.

Also, the messenger was out for information. It wanted to find out about 'the thief' (Bilbo) and where he was with this ring he had 'stolen.' At this time it were the Ringwraiths who were going around trying to gather information about 'Baggins' and 'Shire.' So, I definitely agree with Kuru that it was a Ringwraith who was the secret messenger.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'd agree with Kuruharan&Boro on that this "horseman in the night" might be a Ringwraith. Boro's "hissing" points are quite good, and also Kuru's thoughts of Dol Guldur being much closer to Erebor than Mordor.

I went a little bit further and done a little exegesis to support this theory.

As we know, Gloins speaks of this messenger to Dain at the Elrond's Council; Gloin says that the messenger will come

for the third and the last time, as he said, before the end of the year.

This means that it was three times the same one, just to make matters clear (unless the Dwarves could not distinct one messenger from another, which is not impossible, a guy in black and a guy in black look the same, but on the other hand you don't send three different negotiators to Erebor if you have one who already was there and this is his job).

In Unfinished Tales, there is written, that

the second greatest [ringwraith], Khamul, the Shadow of the East, stayed in Dol Guldur along with his messenger

Well, I'm sorry for the unexact quotations, but if the second guy (a Ringwraith as well) is called "a messenger" and stays in Dol Guldur, this would speak for Boro's idea and imply that this pal of Khamul might very possibly be the one we seek.

If someone needed to verify if the Ringwraith were able to be at Erebor, there are the datums. Remember that it was almost at the start of their quest for the Ring-bearer, so were they "on-line" at the time the messenger came to Erebor?
Gloin says that first time the messenger came "a year before" the Council, as he puts it, so let's say september to november 3017. This would imply that immediately after receiving the information from Gollum, Sauron sent this messenger to the "scene of murder", Erebor (of course he did, being it such a grave matter as the One Ring). At this time, the Nazgul were certainly "free of duties" to do this. The second coming, however, is quite obscure. Gloin says just that he returned without answer, but does not say when. If our "horseman in the night" indeed was a Ringwraith, it would have to happen before June 3018, when the Witch-King and the other Ringwraith set out from Mordor to meet with Khamul and his messenger (according to UT). This happened after Sauron received the message of Gollum being captured by Aragorn, which, according to UT, was some time around April 3018. According to Gloin, the messenger said that he'd come before the end of the year. Sauron's choice of sending the Nazgul out was improvised and quick in response to the events at that time, thus, when the messenger came, he still counted on that the third time (as he said, before the end of 3018), he will return and ask about the whereabouts of the Ring and it's bearer. He did not know that at the moment, the whereabouts of the Ring would be already known because of speeding up the events with Sauron's response to the capture of Gollum by Aragorn.
So it is indeed possible that this messenger was a Ringwraith, and we also came up to the dates of the messenger's coming

So, to be precise, the only thing which might stand against the theory of the messenger being a Ringwraith would be that the Ringwraith were something like a "last resort" for Sauron, and he didn't want to use them because the fear they produced was too great. However, this fear was just the thing Sauron used (um, as always). Also, it was problem for the Ringwraith to cross water, however, this would be possible on oars or whatever in the Wilderness. They had also problem with orientation in daylight - but this would speak FOR the Ringwraith theory, since the messenger could have traveled at night - and, Gloin says, that he came in the night - and what man would not camp outside Erebor and wait for the dawn until negotiating! Also, in the night, his identity could not have been revealed - so that no one would know he was a Ringwraith!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I cannot remember what I initially thought this messenger was, probably a wring wraith, but I must say that I see no evidence for it.

Fell voice: I am fairly sure that the Mouth of Sauron was not very lovely to listen to, any human can have a fell voice

Hiss of Snakes: Now this is something that I assoisiate with the Nazgul, but I sertainly do not see it as proof! and it did only make people shutter, the Nazgul is known to have a more severe effect on their soroundings! And it was only those who heard him that was affected, not the people of Erebor in genneral. Like one can be moved by the words of another man, so can the appearance and sound of him make you shutter.

Heavy have the hearts: Yes of course! They stand between to opptions 1. the eternal wrath of mordor, or 2. betraying a friend. Who would not have heavy harts?

It could very well have been a Nazgul, but it might as well have been some sort of living messenger. Yes these things could indicate that it was a Nazgul, but for some reason I doubt that Tolkien would descripe a living messenger from Mordor as a real cheerful and lovely chap' !

[The Might]

well, I hate answering my own question, but I remembered I overlooked one also important aspect of the story when asking.
as Lieutenant of Barad-dur, Mouth of Sauron clearly was charged with dealing with internal business, and taking care of the matters in the Dark Tower.

However, I have just found some quotes that make me believe it was just an ordinary emissary, and not a Ringwraith:

Yet all his ordinary spies[size=-1] and emissaries could bring him no tidings. ~ UT, The Hunt for the Ring[/size]

So, because these emissaries, such as the one he sent to Erebor, didn't manage to bring tidings of where the "thief" and the Ring were:

At length he resolved that no others[size=-1] would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own... ~ibid[/size]

By the time he took this decision, the emissary had already visited Erebor, so I doubt it could have been a Nazgul, because Sauron hadn't decided on using them yet.

And I have another reason that makes me think that the Nazgul never went to Erebor. Considering the story in the UT we can see what effect the presence of a Nazgul has, effects much more devastating then the words of the messenger at Erebor. People fled from their homes in Rohan when they went to Isengard, fear went before them and lingered behind them. These are clearly not the effects the messenger has.
The hearts of the Dwarf chieftains are heavy, but not because of the messenger himself, but because of the message. They knew all what the messenger was talking about, and they all knew the might of Sauron - that is in my opinion reason enough to have a heavy heart. This quote is in my opinion very useful:

We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old. ~The Council of Elrond

Also, had they passed that way, we should have had reports from the Elves as well, since Legolas was present.

As Rune very well points out, the fact he had a "fell voice" or "hiss of snakes" do not mean he was necessarily a Nazgul.

So my conclusion: this was just an "ordinary" emissary, that "[size=-1]could bring him no tidings."[/size]

[Boromir88]

Hiss of Snakes: Now this is something that I assoisiate with the Nazgul, but I sertainly do not see it as proof!~Rune

I just have to ask this one...why not? The Nazgul we know have hissing sounds like a snake...this messenger's hissed like a snake. Sounds like pretty darn good 'proof' to me. You could argue that that some living messenger hissed like a snake...sure thing, but I think you need to show some reasoning as to who else besides the Nazgul have a hissing voice?

It's also not simply the hissing voice. The nazgul as a messenger isn't a problem as Legate describes. The Nazgul were used as messengers and called such:

'I was just wondering about the black shadow. I heard you shout "messenger of Mordor". What was it? What could it do at Isengard?'
'It was a Black Rider on wings, a Nazgul,' said Gandalf. 'It could have taken you away to the Dark Tower.'
'But it was not coming for me, was it?' faltered Pippin. 'I mean it didn't know that I had...'
'Of course not,' said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-dûr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgûl would take a few hours to fly between them. But Saruman certainly looked in the Stone since the orc-raid, and more of his secret thought, I do not doubt, has been read than he intended. A messenger has been sent to find out what he is doing. And after what has happened tonight another will come, I think, and swiftly.~The Palantir

So, the Nazgul were used as messengers and even called the 'messengers of Mordor' by Gandalf.

Good post Legate! One thing:

So, to be precise, the only thing which might stand against the theory of the messenger being a Ringwraith would be that the Ringwraith were something like a "last resort" for Sauron, and he didn't want to use them because the fear they produced was too great.

I don't think that really is a problem. We know that during this time period we are talking about Sauron has no idea who Baggins is, or where the heck the Shire is. He sends out his Nazgul to search for the Ring (and find the whereabouts of this 'Baggins'), and deal with such tasks as finding the Ring and bringing it to him (that was there whole mission in the first part of the books)...to find the Ring, get it, and bring it back to Sauron. I don't think he would use the Nazgul sparingly...the Nazgul were probably his deadliest servants, and the one's he trusted the most; his usage of them is quite extensive through out the story. Just to name a few...

-It was there job in FOTR to hunt down Baggins and find the Ring
-He puts Nazgul in Dol Guldur to control things over there
-He uses the Nazgul to start his attacks on Gondor (as Boromir notes in The Council of Elrond...it wasn't by numbers they were defeated, it was because of the 'Black Captain' as he called him).
-He puts the Witch-King in charge of his army.
-He used the Nazgul to check up on Saruman and see what he was up to as is noted in the chapter of The Palantir
Sauron shows no shyness in using the Nazgul when it comes to accomplishing important tasks. Especially one that concerns his One Ring. The only people Sauron could conceivably trust (since they were enthralled to his service) when it came to the One Ring, and bringing it back to him were the Nazgul.

We see the Messenger in Dale was there to get information about Baggins and the Ring, which we know during this time period that's what the Nazgul were doing as you eloquently explained in your post above.

TM:

Considering the story in the UT we can see what effect the presence of a Nazgul has, effects much more devastating then the words of the messenger at Erebor.

Comparing how one people (or group of people) act to a situation and taking another group of people; giving them the same situation, that doesn't mean they would act the same as group 1. It's like comparing apples to oranges, people will react differently to the same situation. As noted in Letter 210 the Nazgul did not have great physical power over the fearless...and there are examples of people we can see who were not afraid of the Nazgul (Gandalf, Aragorn, and Imrahil to name a few). There are different levels of fear one experience to different things and situations. Just because my niece is terrified of snakes doesn't mean I find snakes terrifying, or you find snakes terrifying...etc. Just because the Dwarves didn't react the same way as some other people to the 'Black Messenger' doesn't mean it wasn't a Nazgul. But we do have another instance when Gimli actually encounters the 'flying Nazgul' and here's how he describes the fear he felt:

'I cannot,' said Gimli. 'But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria - the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.

It seems like Gimli's fear is pretty standard and not too 'dramatic.' He didn't like the 'shadow' as it reminded him too much of the Balrog in Moria, but Gimli's not going hysterical here. He just didn't like the presense of the Nazgul and was glad it was gone! Even had Gimli broken out into a hysterical fear, that still wouldn't mean that all the Dwarves would react the same way in the presense of a Nazgul.

The hearts of the Dwarf chieftains are heavy, but not because of the messenger himself, but because of the message.

I disagree, you're forgetting when the dwarves fear is strictly because of the hissing voice of the Messenger:

'At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered.'

Here's some more things to ponder...about the 'hiss of snakes' Tolkien uses that his 'breath came like the hiss of snakes.' Breath is a very interesting word to use...he doesn't say voice, or 'spoke' but his breath came out like a hiss of snakes. It's interesting he uses breath because the Nazgul have the power of the Black Breath. I started a discussion about the Black Breath...and that 'the Breath of life' is exactly what it sounds like...it gives life it heals, it comforts.

Aragorn breathes upon the athelas to counter the 'black breath' of the Nazgul:
’Then taking two leaves, he laid them on his hands and breathed on them, and he crushed them, and straightaway a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled sparkling with joy.’~Houses of Healing

The 'breath of life' can heal and give life...but the black breath is the corrupt from that will cause death. It's just interesting that Tolkien uses the word 'breath' here and we see some more descriptions of the 'hissing' Nazgul:

'He gave sort of a hiss....'~The Shortcut to Mushrooms

I'd also like to point out that Farmer Maggot didn't turn tail and run. He did feel a shiver down his spine, when the Nazgul approached him, but he stood up and sent the Messenger off...so again, just because there are cases where the Nazgul caused people to be with so much fear that they turned tail and fled, doesn't mean all who encounter them act the same way.

Also, had they passed that way, we should have had reports from the Elves as well, since Legolas was present.

I disagree the Messenger could have avoided Mirkwood entirely. We know that the Eldar were not afraid of the Nazgul so they can't play their fear card like they do to other people. Also, I don't see what they could report. Everyone knew full well there were Nazgul still in Dol Guldur, I'm not sure what you'd be expecting the Elves of Mirkwood to report in this situation. That there was a Nazgul around? Why yes, because they knew there were still Nazgul present in Dol Guldur.

The messenger was out to strike a bargain with the dwarves, but what was the exchange...The messenger clearly wanted information about Bilbo and the Ring. Which we know for certain the Nazgul were going around trying to do. Sauron was very protective over his ring and information about it; he does not seem to trust anyone with matters concerning the Ring except himself and his Nazgul. In UT Hunt for the Ring, Sauron is filled with fear when he finds out his enemies have captured Gollum. Sauron wants as much information about the Ring as possible, and as we see he hates it when other people have access to knowledge about the Ring. I doubt Sauron would send an ordinary emissary to go out and get information on the whereabouts of the Ring and this 'Baggins.' Sauron had some serious trust issues when it came to matters about the Ring (which could be reasonably explained)...the one's he trusted with the Ring were the Nazgul because he had them enthralled into a slavedom and controlled them. Therefor they seem to be the most likely candidates for the one's to be sent out and find the whereabouts of the Ring...which we all know full well that was the Nazgul's major task in The Fellowship of the Ring...and we know was the purpose of the Messenger sent to Erebor.

[The Might]

I agree with the point you made on different people acting differently when in the presence of the Nazgul, I admit I was wrong here.
Still, I doubt he would have already sent the Nazgul as messengers, considering that he wished for secrecy. At the time, as we are told in the UT, Khamul was in charge of finding out information about the whereabouts of Gollum.
Important here is that he did not go himself, but he sent his own spies to find out more. Once he learned that he was in the hands of the Wise, he sent a message back to Sauron.
For Sauron it clearly was very important that he captured Gollum before his enemy, still he did not yet send the Nazgul to do it. If he didn't send them do this, I doubt he would have sent them to deal with the Dwarves.
Only in late June he decided that they must go forth and find the Ring, so he eventually sent the seven Nazgul from Minas Morgul which met the other 2 on the Field of Celebrant.
If Sauron took the decision to send forth the Nazgul in late June, how could it be possible that one of them had visited the Dwarves in Erebor some months before?

[Boromir88]

If Sauron took the decision to send forth the Nazgul in late June, how could it be possible that one of them had visited the Dwarves in Erebor some months before?~TM

I think Legate made a good explanation at that possibility...now that's only a theory, but at least we know it's possible.

At the time, as we are told in the UT, Khamul was in charge of finding out information about the whereabouts of Gollum.

I'll take a look back into the UT to see exactly when we are talking about here and the situation. But, I've always had the feeling that Sauron didn't want to recapture Gollum. He had found out as much information from Gollum as he could get, and then simply let Gollum go to see if Gollum would lead him to the Ring. So, he wanted to find Gollum's whereabouts to track him and see if Gollum would lead them to the Ring.

I think since we aren't told exactly who the messenger is, of course nobody here can say definitively. I was told a while ago that:
'If it look like a Nazgul,
sounds like a Nazgul,
acts like a Nazgul,
chances are it's a Nazgul'
So, that's kind of been my thinking. However, I admit it's kind of like the race of Gothmog...we aren't told for sure, so we don't know. We can make some educated answers, but can never really be certain. Don't you just love how it's like that; there will never be a time when we can find 'all the answers.'

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I wasn't there .

[The Might]

you are indeed right there: Sauron let Gollum go hoping that he will be able to follow him and found out where this "Shire" was...but Gollum fooled him

and here follow a few quotes all from the UT to clear up the situation:

[After his release from Mordor] Gollum soon disappeared into the Dead Marshes, where Sauron's emissaries could not or would not follow him. No other spies of Sauron could bring him any news.

According to Aragorn Gollum was taken at nightfall on February 1st. Hoping to escape detection by any of Sauron’s spies he drove Gollum through the north end of the Emyn Muil, and crossed Anduin just above SarnGebir. Driftwood was often cast up there on the shoals by the east shore, and binding Gollum to a log he swam across with him, and continued his journey north by tracks as westerly as he could find, through the skirts of Fangorn, and so over Limlight, then over Nimrodel and Silverlode through the eaves of Lórien, and then on, avoiding Moria and Dimrill Dale, over Gladden until he came near the Carrock. There he crossed Anduin again, with the help of the Beornings, and passed into the Forest. The whole journey, on foot, was not much short of nine hundred miles, and this Aragorn accomplished with weariness in fifty days, reaching Thranduil on the twenty-first of March." [Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring]

And here is what happens:

But when Sauron learned[size=-1] of Gollum's capture by his enemies the situation was drastically changed. When and how this happened cannot of course be known for certain.[/size]

But evidently later (since the lands of Thranduil would now be closely watched), possibly a month later, Sauron heard the
disquieting news that the Wise were aware of Gollum, and that Gandalf had
passed into Thranduil's realm.
Sauron must then have been filled with anger and alarm. He resolved
to use the Ringwraiths as soon as he could, for speed rather than secrecy
was now important. Hoping to alarm his enemies and disturb their counsels
with the fear of war (which he did not intend to make for some time), he
attacked Thranduil and Gondor at about the same time. He had these two additional objects: to capture or kill Gollum, or at least to deprive his
enemies of him;

So clearly, the order was to capture or kill Gollum. Only then, when need was at its greatest did Sauron eventually decide to send the Nazgul after Gollum - when all else failed. That is why I doubt he would have used any of them as messengers at Erebor.

In conclusion, I agree, we can only make attempts to find the right answer.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Boromir

I just have to ask this one...why not? The Nazgul we know have hissing sounds like a snake...this messenger's hissed like a snake. Sounds like pretty darn good 'proof' to me. You could argue that that some living messenger hissed like a snake...sure thing, but I think you need to show some reasoning as to who else besides the Nazgul have a hissing voice?

This could never be more than an indication that it might be a Nazgul!

It is very basic. . . women have ears, Aragorn have ears. . .Aragorn is a woman?

I know this is an extreme example, but basicaly it is the same. You cannot tell if it is an Nazgul unless hissing like a snake is a thing only a Nazgul can do.

I know you know this, but you asked and so I have to answer.

[The Might]

I have not addressed this matter in my previous post, I got caught up with the UT quotes so I will do it now.
I agree with your:

'If it look like a Nazgul,
sounds like a Nazgul,
acts like a Nazgul,
chances are it's a Nazgul'

philosophy, but as Rune well points out, it is not a single case.
However, as you already said, just like the race of Gothmog, there is no way to clearly tell.
As Legate showed, if Sauron wished to send one of the Nazgul as a messenger to Dol Guldur he could have.
But he didn't. Not at that time.
He sent messengers, emissaries and spies, that weren't able to bring him any tidings.
So only in late June 3018 did he eventually decide to use his best servants - the Ringwraiths which had until that point remained hidden.
The WK attacked Osgiliath, Khamul started to look for Gollum, and the story is well known from this point.

[ninja91]

I do not believe that it was the Mouth, although there is evidence to support his being there. I think that his place was in Mordor. He was the lieutenent of Barad Dur, and an ambassador. I dont think he was exactly a messenger.