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09-18-2006, 08:42 PM | #1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sauron Vs the Ring
Sauron made the ring to enhance his power yet I have to ask...dd he contrl it or did the ring control sauron? did he want to find it because he needed it to control middle arth or did he need it like gllum needed it?
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09-19-2006, 02:48 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Maybe it is more Sauron vs Sauron, how much of himself was in the One Ring and was his own will inside the ring enhancing him, or was his power enhancing the ring, would the will of the ring get the better of him in a struggle of control.
I hope that makes sense.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 09-19-2006 at 02:52 AM. |
09-19-2006, 09:51 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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What you guys are forgetting is that the will of the Ring is the will of his Master... and Sauron is the only true Master of the One Ring. Even if someone else mastered it and managed to defeat Sauron, the ring would ultimately corrupt them into another Dark Lord... thus, it's still the will of Sauron at work, just not Sauron himself doing it.
So, to answer the question and as nafforc said, the ring IS Sauron... but from my perspective, it's not a matter of who controls whom.... as they are the same thing.
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09-19-2006, 09:55 PM | #4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well thats what I mean Sauron can use th rings to corrupt but has he corrupted without the use of rings?
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09-20-2006, 12:26 AM | #5 | |||
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09-20-2006, 05:32 PM | #6 | |
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Which was sadly the only time he was smart.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
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10-04-2006, 12:20 AM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The only time he was smart?? Ahem, Numenor...
What I wonder was if Sauron and the Ring were seperate or not. Sauron could not use the Ring to detect where the company were or what they were talking about, at least I don't think so. Was it like a second Sauron within the Ring? This would explain why Sauron didn't want another Dark Lord, only the Ring-Sauron would survive, not the Eye-Sauron. |
10-04-2006, 05:29 AM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I think that it was the ring that controlled Sauron, because it was the ring that which his life began to revolve around. It did not seem to control him, but it seemed to consume him, if you can catch my drift, dude.
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10-04-2006, 01:07 PM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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In repost...
To start at the end and go to the beggining is what I will do here. For I in my personal opinion must agree with ninja's statement, and it would seem we are in favour of your second point Morsul, it was more of a "gollum" desire.
The reason for my belief is due to the existence of Letter #131 which unfortunately struggles against the letter Raynor qouted. And clearly disagree's with Farael's point. "'Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.'" (Letter #131) "...(even his own)" this is Sauron, the quote continues in a similar style, reflecting the feelings of all those who had possession of the ring for a time, Isuldur, Gollum and Bilbo and to an extent Frodo. I do admit though it is tough to disregard the second quote other than to say that Letter #131 was written after Letter #246. Perhaps he had a change of heart? As has been pointed out I would put forward his capture by Ar-Pharazôn and subsequent corruption of the King is an adequate example of him not using the ring. Though whether he actually had the ring or not during his capture is a matter of debate.
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10-04-2006, 01:31 PM | #10 | |
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10-04-2006, 02:58 PM | #11 | |
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So, even if the utlimate effect would have been the same (there would be a dark lord who would rule Middle Earth) Sauron would have much rather been that dark lord himself, anyone else (save perhaps Melkor, who is sort of out of the picture) would not have been the same for him. And even though Manwe brings up an interesting quote, I agree with Rayonor here. Sauron would not have contemplated destroying the Ring because it was not Sauron's nature on the other hand, people of the likes of Frodo, or Isildur or Gollum himself had other motivations and yet they could not destroy, harm or get rid of the ring. In a way, they were becoming more like Sauron and this is what the ring's "corruption" was. It would turn anyone else into a Saruon-clone. Sauron is Sauron himself, so he cannot become more Sauron-like, thus he can't be corrupted by the ring. Having said that, I want to stress, refering to my previous point, that a Sauron-clone Dark Lord is not what Sauron himself wanted, because his motives were not altruistic but rather individualist.
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10-05-2006, 12:01 AM | #12 | |
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Alas, you are incorrect. Melkor was inconsevabley((Forgive me for not knowing how to spell it)) more powerfull than Sauron in all around ways. I believe that Sauron poured his soul and his "mind" into that ring, but he left a small part else where to become the "Great Eye". In the beginning of the Fellowship, Galadrial mentions that he poured his Malace and Hatred into the ring, thus meaning that if it were destroyed, being the DARK lord, everything that had been evil about him. Such as the Tower of Baradur and Mordor itself, were obliterated along with the "Great" Lord Sauron. ((Rest In Peace m'lord )) |
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10-05-2006, 02:36 AM | #13 | |||
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10-05-2006, 08:03 AM | #14 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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In repost with an 'e'...
Raynor I do see your point and you have explained it for me well. It is not about whether he 'could' cast it away, rather 'wouldn't' cast it away. However I was not using the forementioned quote to illustrate that he would cast it off. Rather that I thought it did imply his subserviency to the Ring.
For the sake of an attempted flowing post, I shall quote again; "'Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.'" (Letter #131)[My bold] Is not Tolkien entertaining the idea that Sauron would see no hurt come to ring. Like that Gollum, his need of the ring, and Bilbo's reaction in the Shire to Gandal's questioning about it, are I think, reactions of similar trait to Sauron's feelings toward the ring. He lusted for it, as did all who possesed it, even Deagol who lost his life trying to retain it from the grasp of Smeagol. Again I shall use ninja's post to illustrate my point; Originally posted by ninja91 Quote:
It was I agree the Ring his life revolved around after his fall. As has been recounted countless times in the making of the One he enmeshed much of his own power into it, much like Melkor with pysical objects. Something you quote from in your post. This was its inherant weakness. Going back to my original quote it states that he did not think that someone would have sufficient strength to resist it and so seek to destroy it. "This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will." (Letter #131) The fact that his very existance could be eradicated on the subsequent destruction of the ring meant he had given it far too much control over him. Not in the physical sense, say, similar to the that of a hypnotist has over someone to induce physical movement. But control over his actual existence, body only. For want of a better analogy I shall use the recent Pirates of the Carribean film. Davy Jones has his heart in a locked box, should it be destroyed then so too would he be. But while it still exists, undamaged then he will be immortal. Do you see the angle of 'control' I am coming from now? Servant of Shadow; inconceivably. And Raynor's quotation is a perfect illustration of Melkor's residual power. I interpret the quote as Melkor's residual power giving rise to the potential of a conscious mind able to express free will turning to "evil".
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10-05-2006, 09:25 AM | #15 | |
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10-05-2006, 02:16 PM | #16 | ||
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10-07-2006, 10:00 AM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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In reply...
Raynor,
I may use the same quote to counter your ideas that Sauron was not whole heartedly looking for the One. It is sufficient also I think to show he has a great fixation for the One. "But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it." - (Book I, Chapter 2 The Shadow of the Past.) [My bold] Yes he does not send any great force, other than the Nine, in search for it, but it is still very much part of his desire. Secondly, and probably should have been primarily, I think you misunderstand what I mean. By his "life" I meant literally, not his peaceful ( indeed lol) plans for domination but his very existence. Should the One be destroyed then he also is undone. That is the control the One has over him, and was the weakness in its making.
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10-09-2006, 06:05 PM | #18 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think that the Ring was master over Sauron, not the other way around. It is in the letters.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains Last edited by The 1,000 Reader; 10-09-2006 at 06:10 PM. |
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10-10-2006, 08:17 AM | #19 |
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Greetings!
I am new at the Barrow Downs, so... Hello!
Here's what I personally think of the Sauron versus the Ring issue: Sauron originally possessed great powers as a Maia. And with the creation of the One Ring, he simply poured himself into it; for I believe that Maiar were able to extend their animating influence to more than just one body. They were angelic beings whose true forms were unseen by the mundane peoples of Middle-earth - meaning: they were formless. Yes it did seem that some of the Maiar were subjected to one body, as in the case of Gandalf. But still... maybe Sauron had learned some other forms of art from Melkor. The latter was, after all, the mightiest of the Ainur. Therefore, I think Sauron and the Ring were one and the same. Or... it could be this: Sauron and the Ring were not one and the same. Remember Tolkien's philosophy towards technology and materialism, and their powers over the minds and hearts of people? Well, the Ring symbolized the dominance of technology; and its apparent influences over its recipients (including Sauron) was no different than a man being addicted to... say... a computer for instance. The recipient's intentions may rise from a good will (e. g. Boromir), but in the end, it will always be power and dominance and technology. So the Ring did in fact have power over Sauron. Anyway, I may have repeated someone else's comments; and if so, then I sincerely apologize. - Philomythus |
10-10-2006, 04:00 PM | #20 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Philomythus, a very warm welcome indeed! Let us hope you are not affected by credulity, and retain your own views!
And to follow up upon your astute summation, I reiterate the importance of the fact that he passed a significant amount of himself into the One Ring, this being his plan's weak point and in part the proof for it controlling him.
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