Friends of Nimrodel: Tapestry of Dreams - Discussion

[Imladris]

I brought Aeron and Ravion to the evening that the others eat supper with Mellonin's family.

This should fix any time incontinuities, right?

[alaklondewen]

Yes, Immy, that evens us up. Thanks so much. Great post too, by the way. Aeron is on his way to becoming a man...well done!

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Just wanted to give an advance warning: I will be going on a trip to Costa Rica on Monday, June 26th and won't return until late on July 6th (I think that's a Thursday?). There will be no posts from me during that time because I will be having fun in the sun, looking at three-toed sloths, and traversing the canopies (yesss!).

Hopefully I can get one or two more posts in before then.

-Aylwen

[alaklondewen]

Aylwen, that sounds so fun! I hope you have a great time!

I had planned on getting a dinner post up tonight, but I have something on my mind and I just can't pull it off tonight. So if anyone else is itching, feel free to get dinner going or tales or songs or whatever moves you.

Let's see, today is Wednesday (amazing grasp of the obvious, you say?), I would like have the current night completed by this weekend and the morning started. Is that doable? Am I asking too much?

I just know there's going to be quite a bit happen before they all leave Minas Tirith, and I want us to have time to do it all.

That reminds me...what do you all want to do with the women? Should Mellonin have a dream and sleepwalk? But if that happens, how will Leafa and Bella know she is gone? Will the women stay together? Or will something else happen?

Ideas? Suggestions?

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

In my post the group has dinner, talks for a while, and is quickly shooed out by Mellondu. Hope it's okay...if not I'll revise as requested.

I can't see Mellonin going to Leafa and Bella and saying "I had this dream, come with me." I can see her going off on her own. Maybe they should each have their own dream? That would have to be one big coincidence though...I don't know.

Be back July sixth!

Aylwen

[alaklondewen]

Aylwen, I thought your post was just right, and thanks for moving on and through the dinner. I hope you have a blast on vacation!

[alaklondewen]

Mowing is a great time to think, and while I mowed this evening I had a couple of concerns came to mind.

The women will have to be told that they are not going on the next half of the quest. I know Bellyn believes she is going, but what of Leafa? I know Leafa is originally from Rohan, even though her family has gone the wayfaring way. I also know that Bella lives in Rohan currently. Without thinking of what has been planned for the ladies to go a different way...how would they get home? I mean, the men are leaving them stranded in Gondor and their money would last only so long for the inn. Would Mellonin's parents take them in temporarily? That would mean sleeping on the floor, or do we need someone in the inn to meet and take a liking to the girls and offer them a place?

If a place with Mellonin was offered, that would leave room for Mellonin to sleepwalk and the girls to look for her, thinking she'd not gone far and then find themselves off toward the mountains. Another idea would be to have them staying with someone who lived closer to Mellonin than the inn and then have a dream come to Bella or Leafa (or even a possible visitation of Gwyllion's ghost?). One of them disappears, the other runs to Mellonin's to ask for help and they're off.

What do you think about this? We need a realistic solution.

[littlemanpoet]

Mellonin remains under the care and rule of Estelyn Telcontar, and that ladyship had her staying at The Seventh Star. Now that the "quest" is "done", isn't it a natural fit for Mellonin to take up her serving role there again? And couldn't the other women stay there as guests?

Ædegard's point of view is that with Mellondu in the protection of his parents, and the Amroth part of him under the guidance of Erebemlin, there is no reason for him to stick around, especially as he wants to take Leafa back to her father and both get the man's permission to marry her, and convince him to return to Edoras with them. How Leafa feels about this is up to Nuru, of course. I'm up to page 11 of the reread, and my opinion may change as I refresh my memory as to what has happened to Ædegard - - something about a lost hand, I'm thinking - - but the lost hand is more likely to convince him to leave the quest rather than stay.

So, something to perhaps lend aid, and something else to add confusion.

[alaklondewen]

You know, lmp, you bring up a good point, whether it was your intention or not. I had in my head that all the men would pick up and follow Amroth without question (that's the Erebemlin part of me), but you know, why would any of them want to go now? I can maybe see Liornung because of the adventure and song possibilities, but (and of course these are all up to the writers, I'm just talking off my head) Ravion may want to stay where Mellonin is (or he may want to run). Erundil and Aeron would be likely to stay or go with Ravion, no? Taitheneb will go wherever Erebemlin goes. Ædegard will want to go home, but what of Raefindan?

It will be interesting to see who goes with Erebemlin and who wants to stay in Minas Tirith or go home. Of course, if the women disappear, it may bring them all back together, but we might have a couple of days conflict in the meantime.

[Nurumaiel]

Just wanted to let you know of upcoming absences.

On Tuesday a dear friend of mine is arriving for a visit, and we have a busy week planned out. So, while I'll be at home with my computer and all, it isn't likely I'll have the time to get on.

Come July 2nd I'll be free again, until the 9th, when I'll be leaving home to do some visiting for about a week.

If it's necessary to do anything with Leafa while I'm away, go ahead.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by alaklondewen

You know, lmp, you bring up a good point, whether it was your intention or not. I had in my head that all the men would pick up and follow Amroth without question (that's the Erebemlin part of me), but you know, why would any of them want to go now? I can maybe see Liornung because of the adventure and song possibilities, but (and of course these are all up to the writers, I'm just talking off my head) Ravion may want to stay where Mellonin is (or he may want to run). Erundil and Aeron would be likely to stay or go with Ravion, no? Taitheneb will go wherever Erebemlin goes. Ædegard will want to go home, but what of Raefindan?

It will be interesting to see who goes with Erebemlin and who wants to stay in Minas Tirith or go home. Of course, if the women disappear, it may bring them all back together, but we might have a couple of days conflict in the meantime.

Now that I've read the whole thing through:

Ædegard will follow Mellondu's lead because of Bethberry's words lending "destiny" to the whole adventure. He would be quite willing to accept Mellondu's word that the quest is over, and set off with Leafa for northern Rohan, but if Mellondu decides to go with Erebemlin, Ædegard will too.

Raefindan has come to believe that he has been brought from the future specificallyl because of the Amroth/Nimrodel story, and is determined to see it through.

I notice that Liornung is feeling homesick.

Aeron has the prophecy from Marigold that he will pierce through every illusion that holds all others back (it sure is good to have Immy back, considering that!).

Ravion and Erundil are Orual's business, of course, and there is no prophecy or promise determining their fate since Mellondu has been found.

Any other thoughts on the matter?

[Orual]

As for my characters, I'll probably let Erundil stay in Gondor. Ravion, on the other hand, will want to stay around Mellonin, and also Aeron, to whom he feels a responsibility.

[Imladris]

Aeron was going to stick with Ravion because of the oath made so long ago :P

Serve Ravion or to the jail! Though, really, his loyalty/service is more out of respect now.

[alaklondewen]

In the spirit of the debate on lembas occuring on the Book 2 discussion thread, I have edited post #233.

Originally, Erebemlin simply requested the bread, but I have edited to reflect the on going discussion.

[alaklondewen]

I made a few more alterations to #233 to make the dialogue more appropriate as that is one of our goals.

[mark12_30]

Alak, I like it.

I'm assuming Erebemlin will lead the quest until/ unless Amroth surfaces; does he express any interest in who else is coming besides Taitheneb and Mellondu? Anything like intentionally assembling a team?

[alaklondewen]

I expect Erebemlin will hold a meeting with the men after Tharonwe is turned in. Even though he has been highly frustrated with the humans, he believes that they were brought together for a reason. Also, having a few more men might be helpful, especially the rangers, if they have any problems on the road.

With that said, Erebemlin will call a meeting and offer the choice to stay or go. I think the only one he'll have an initial problem accepting is Aeron because of his running away, but it's possible that if he touches Aeron's thoughts he may see the changes in the young man that are occuring and be more willing.

[littlemanpoet]

It's only been a few days, but I'm wondering what still has to happen to wrap Tapestry 1 up?

I know that Celuien, for example, is elsewhere occupied until the end of July, and a start on Tapestry 2 could wait until August, if we want it to.

Could we perhaps develop an outline to help us see how far we have to go?

[alaklondewen]

Good idea, lmp.

The Elves

1. Tharonwe
2. Erebemlin calls a meeting with the men of the company
3. a possible visit to Mellondu's home

The ladies

1. realization they're not going, if they still expect to leave with the men
2. plans for their lodging and possible trips home
3. Something happens overnight and they disappear

The men

1. meeting with Erebemlin; decisions about going
2. gathering supplies, food, etc for the next quest

If there is anything I'm forgetting feel free to add to it and post.

[Formendacil]

Okay.

Elessar has met the Elves.

I'm hoping what I've written works/is acceptable/doesn't step on any toes.

As always... let me know if anything's wrong, so I can change it.

EDIT: I've edited my post at Alak's request to include confrontation with Tharonwë.

[littlemanpoet]

I don't have time now, but Tharonwë wouldn't be such a fool, not before such a formidable Elf as Arwen. He would not try to command Elessar, much less Arwen, as to what to think of the others. His way would be more subtle, to suggest and imply rather than baldly state. More later.

EDIT: I'm wondering about the osanwë between Elessar and Arwen. Is osanwe harder for the two than talking, or not? Passing information in the midst of counsel before others would be quite handy, and I can see that happening. I can also imagine that Aragorn would not find it necessary to give Arwen a somewhat scolding "I know", however mild, as it stands to reason that if they are communicating mind to mind, she would know what he knows. It must be remembered that the only communication at length that we have, from Tolkien, is the Appendix story of Aragorn's death and Arwen's bereavement. Did they communicate mind to mind there, or did they speak? If the spoke, one wonders how difficult osanwe is as a mode of communication? Surely easier for Arwen than for Aragorn? Are there any definitive answers for these questions, or are we going to have to come to a consensus opinion? Or does Helen want to make a ruling?

[mark12_30]

Hmmm. What lmp said. As originally written, Tharonwe was sowing suspicion, which I think is more likely.

Judging the heart is a common theme in Tolkien, and both Arwen and Aragorn would see that Erebemlin and Taitheneb are elves who can be trusted. And one look at Tharonwe's heart would show otherwise. I doubt Tharonwe would open his mind at all; too risky; yet if he doesn't open his mind, he therefore arouses suspicion.

Perhaps Tharonwe might begin with something along the lines of, "The Marchwarden speaks of that which he knows and sees."

EDIT: Cross-posting with lmp's edit.

I do think humor between the king & queen would be subtle, perhaps the sparkle of an eye or the hint of a smile.

We know Aragorn did the contest-of-wills thing with adversaries (Mouth of Sauron comes to mind) and we know that Arwen watched over Aragorn from afar; so conversational osanwe is plausible between them. That they also spoke to one another is, I think, clear in the the appendices, at the very least the day they met. (Tinuviel!Tinuviel! ...Why do you call me by that name?)

(pov comment) Indeed, unless the narrator of the tale (I think we'd assume in this case Erebemlin or Taitheneb) were privy to the conversations, how would it make it into the book in the end? (a faux pas I've repeatedly committed, I must admit.)

I'll reread the post, and reconsider the subtlety issue. You might want to let the reader interpret some of what they might be telling each other by outward physical hints; glances, smiles, sparkling eyes... there's plenty of that in Tolkien, both in the ride back to Rivendell/Lorien, and in Rivendell itself (Arwen's piercing glance, etc.)

[alaklondewen]

I've edited my post at Alak's request to include confrontation with Tharonwë.

There may have been a misunderstanding, so I apologize if it was my doing. I was not asking for direct confrontation to be written into the scene, but rather there was a statement written that had Tharonwë thinking that there was no way whatsoever he could even attempt Osonwë with Elessar. I was merely asking for room to be made for Tharonwë to attempt it based on PMs between lmp and I. (I didn't specify whether I meant the Osonwë would be attempted during current post or future, but I was hoping to get lmp in on the action.)

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

As to the Osonwë between Aragorn and Arwen, the way that Formy has written it, it appears that Arwen is using it and Aragorn is not...similar to the way the elves have communicated with Nethwador throughout the story. She is entering his mind and speaking and then reading the images there along with his facial expressions. I think the way it's written Aragorn is being read by his wife rather than sending his own thoughts and entering her mind. That's my impression, but I'm going to pull out my Appendices and see if anything is revealed.

EDIT - cross posted with Helen's edit.

I agree with your suggestions reagarding subtle glances and gestures. The subtle things within the story will be one of the things that keep the reader interested.

[mark12_30]

Initial re-reactions with respect to Tharonwe's ploy--

Perhaps, instead of the attitude of cold command, Tharonwe might assume a humbly, gently submissive air, combined with a slight whiff of "injured victim whose plight would be misunderstood by these other elves who are unable to understand all that he has been through." (This is partly true, after all.)

If he can make it a sort of Maglor story-- I've been singing my grief to the river for so many centuries that I've gone moonstruck, sort of thing. While Tharonwe would not want to mention Amroth, nevertheless, having been exiled by a long-forgotten conflict over an unrequited love might, if played correctly, win him sympathy from Aragorn and Arwen-- as long as he doens't reveal the parties involved, and can justify his actions.

To pull that off, he'll have to work hard at a couple of things-- covering his own mean streak for one; and two, covering the details of the history he was involved in.

There's the rub; his actions were unreasonably nasty, and just really really hard to justify at all; there I draw a blank.

I guess the other choice is, to do a Morgoth-- lay low, look repentant, let himself be imprisoned in a "minimum security " area; and then work his osanwe on the guards, etc, and get out that way.

lmp?

[mark12_30]

..... EN GUARDE!

Hee hee hee!


Formendacil, if your morale survives this maelstrom of opinions I'll be impressed! Don't take it personally...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

..... EN GUARDE!

Hee hee hee!


Formendacil, if your morale survives this maelstrom of opinions I'll be impressed! Don't take it personally...

My morale's fine... but my mind's slightly confused...

Assuming I make sense of all these suggestions... I'll go back in and re-edit somewhat again... although I'm well aware of the fact that I'll never please everybody.

[Formendacil]

Okay, I've editted the post again. I do not think it smacks any more of confrontation, but more of Tharonwë trying to get on Aragorn's good side.

Assuming that the post is done... I think Erebemlin or Taitheneb needs to give Elessar a fuller account of matters in the swamp, eventually being coerced by Aragorn/Arwen to reveal the Amroth matter- at least, that's what Alak and I seemed to have agreed on.

During the course of that, Aragorn agrees to "hold Tharonwe without bail", so to speak, until the matter can be brought to a proper trial. Tharonwe's response, I presume, will be to appear to acquiese to this decision, with the full appearance of planning to acquit himself. He is thus rather rather underwatched when he makes his escape to pursue Amroth's company thereafter.

At least... that's the jist of what I understand comes next... but it's LMP or Alak's turn to post, so I'm not concerned overmuch.

Oh, and I rather like the constant refining of the post... makes for a much smoother end result. Although... since I've saved no copies... there's no going back if it worsens...

[littlemanpoet]

Only in moments of greatest climactic import does the reader of LotR "hear" osanwë. The best example is on top of Amon Hen: "Fool! Take the Ring off!" Instead, as mark has suggested, it is most often described from the outside from the point of view of a Hobbit. Well, we have no Hobbits at our disposal in this tale, and only one Man, whose mind is an apparent battleground for osanwë. So maybe we need one of the humans present at this scene, to offer the thing from her(his) perspective?

Here's the heart of the niggle: it's easy to write words in dialogue form to represent osanwë ... too easy. I feel like we lose something in the gain of ease. Mystery, wonder. If we describe osanwë at one remove, I bet we come up with a more evocative tale.

Or maybe we just remind ourselves that this is an RP and not bog ourselves down with all that....

[alaklondewen]

I can see what you are saying, lmp, so how does that effect the way we've written this story thus far? I know I have used the dialogue Osanwë many times with Erebemlin and Taitheneb, mostly when no other characters were present. I know these are not the only occasions when it was used. What do you suggest?

[mark12_30]

Now I'm afraid to go back and look.... I suspect that I also have been guilty of blabber-osanwe. **blush**

[littlemanpoet]

There's no point in going back and changing what has already been written .... except, perhaps, further revising Formy's post, if we feel up to it.

Allow me to jump on the other side of the fence a moment: I love writing Tharonwe getting into the minds of others. But I notice that I do this in images at least, if not more than, words. Most of what passed between Raefindan and Tharonwe was verbal dialogue. I didn't make a conscious effort to avoid 'osanwë-blabber', but I guess it turns out that way.

So maybe one way of dealing with osanwë in a more creative manner, if deal we must, writing from the perspective of Elves as often as not, is to use a different sense than hearing. Imagine 'smelling' osanwë, or 'touching', or 'tasting'. I have no idea what that might be like as I haven't tried it, but I have tried 'seeing', and I liked what resulted. The 'other' senses would be good to thread into the rest of our writing as well, for that matter.

Oh, and on a completely different side-note: I have got to figure out a way to get Jorje back into this story.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Just to let you all know, I'm back from my trip.

It was amazing...we saw a lot of people and animals there. It helped me to appreciate hot water and flushing toilet paper down the toilet. Also, I'm no longer afraid of spiders.

-Aylwen

[alaklondewen]

Welcome back, Aylwen! I'm glad you had such a nice time!

I'm currently rereading the parts of the story in the swamp to ensure my details are right for Erebemlin's part in the next post. I want to be sure I'm using his memory and not mine, because I forget too much! And can I say 'wow', what we have put our character's through is so emotionally draining. Great read, though.

Anyway, I'm working on it.

So, what's going on at the inn?

[mark12_30]

Hmmmm. Hoom hom. Who do I have at The Inn...? Nethwador. Wonder what he's up to. Has Erebemlin put him to work? .....Doing what?

And I guess Mellonin should go back there shortly.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Question...behind which wall of Minas Tirith is the Seventh Star Inn? Sorry if it's been said somewhere before and I missed it...

[alaklondewen]

Aylwen, I had been wondering the same before my last post. I assume the inn is on the first level based on this post by lmp.

If that's incorrect, let me know and I'll edit my last one to have the elves looking for the appropriate gate.

[littlemanpoet]

Um, that post doesn't really clarify anything. "wound their way up narrow streets" was my way of saying that they generally went up above the first level, without myself being sure where it was; just not on the 7th. Probably not the 6th either. So if you want it on the first, I suppose that works, but it wasn't my intention to be authoritative. At all. Helen?

[mark12_30]

...location of the Seventh Star....

Not the top level for sure. That leaves us with only six options. Great help, eh?

[mark12_30]

Right-- I still do not know. And I don't have time to go looking for the answer.

For now let's assume that the Inn is in one of the lower circles. Wherever the inn is, Mellonin's parents live in a poorer part of the city, lower down from there. I think. That will (at least) be consistent with the beginning of the book.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Can we make one up then? Like, the third or second? And say that Mellonin lives in the one below?