Matter of choice

Hello everyone! This is my first thread start-up! Here's the topic: When the Fellowship stood before Lady Galadriel for the first time, each member felt "that he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired." What do you think is the significance of this choice?

[mormegil]

I think we need to establish this before it's discussed at any real length because many of the answers are in the books.

'What did you blush for, Sam?' said Pippin. 'You soon broke down. Anyone would have thought you had a guilty conscience. I hope it was nothing worse than a wicked plot to steal one of my blankets.'

'I never thought no such thing,' answered Sam, in no mood for jest. 'If you want to know, I felt as if I hadn't got nothing on, and I didn't like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of lying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with -- with a bit of garden of my own.'

'That's funny,' said Merry. 'Almost exactly what I felt myself; only, only well, I don't think I'll say any more,' he ended lamely.

All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt tht he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired: clear before his mind it lay, and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest and the war against Sauron to others.

--The Mirror Of Galadriel

I see here that it was a test of their true resolve. They have just passed through grief and anguish and now Galadriel can offer them what they most desire and to obtain it would be easy. How would we fare in a similar situation. I think Tolkien is attempting to illustrate that the road less travelled or often times the more difficult course is the choice best chosen.

I believe it can be inferred from the following quote that all save Boromir passed the test.

'To me it seemed exceedingly strange,' said Borormir. 'Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose; but almost I should have said that she was tempting us, and offering what she pretended to have the power to give. It need not be said that I refused to listen. The Men of Minas Tirith are true to their word.' But what he thought that the Lady had offered him Boromir did not tell.

--The Mirror Of Galadriel

Boromir's reaction, to me, demonstrates his giving in to the 'temptation' as he put it, though it should not be correctly attributed to Galadriel. Perhaps she was able to get to their sould and find what most would tempt them to turn back and offer it to them. Samwise, the stout hearted, was the only one who said with any certainty what it was he desire, and I believe he did because how simple and innocent his desire is. Others, such as Boromir obviously had a far more nefarious desire, specifically for the ring. Galadriel, in my opinion, offered the ring to Boromir but his promise to be true to his word was true in a sense that he would stick to the quest, that is what he gave his word on; however he knew that by staying on this quest an opportunity may present itself where he could take possesion of the ring.

[Boromir88]

morm, excellent as usual. Now what Galadriel offered to Boromir we can't be sure about, because we aren't told. And certainly after Lorien a change went through Boromir. Prior to this, beside what happens at the Council Boromir had shown no pull towards the Ring. However, after Lorien we can tell it's affecting him, he's showing signs of nervousness (biting his nails) and he's questioning Frodo.

"Boromir, O Boromir!" he cried. "What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then? Why went you eve to Laurelindorenan, and came not by your own road, upon the horses of Rohan riding home in the morning?"~The Window on the West

So, something happens to Boromir after Lorien, and I'm thinking it has to do with Galadriel, and Galadriel may actually have offered Boromir the Ring.

We later find out that Galadriel has also desired the Ring for a long time. And what's interesting is Boromir calls it "a test." Tolkien has referred to "test/trial" as when one has an oppurtunity of taking the Ring, do they are don't they. Galadriel "passed the test."

It did not seem possible to Faramir that any one in Godnor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.

Galadriel, in my opinion, offered the ring to Boromir but his promise to be true to his word was true in a sense that he would stick to the quest, that is what he gave his word on; however he knew that by staying on this quest an opportunity may present itself where he could take possesion of the ring.~mormegil

The thing is is that Boromir did not give his word about staying with the quest. Remember, no one was bound to sticking with Frodo. Both Boromir and Aragorn were in the Fellowship because they were heading to Minas Tirith. But, what does make me think that Galadriel offered Boromir the Ring is as you point out "staying true to his word"...Not in the sense of staying with the Fellowship, but in the sense of protecting Frodo. There was no word keeping members of the Fellowship together, but while in the Fellowship there was the expectancy that the members were to do whatever they can to help Frodo. And of course that word would be broken (and he eventually does break it) if Boromir tried to take the Ring from Frodo.

[mormegil]

Could it be Tolkien trying to draw an analogy to Abraham and Isaac?

Can you sacrifice that which you want most?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Samwise, the stout hearted, was the only one who said with any certainty what it was he desire, and I believe he did because how simple and innocent his desire is.

Neither as simple, nor innocent, as first appears in my reckoning. I read Sam's exchange with Pippin with Sam not telling all. He was offered a nice little hobbit hole ~ with Rosy in it ~ for his very own. But the stoutheartedness saves him so that his dream does come true. But a minor point as pertains to this question.

Its significance? No less than the success or failure of the mission.

The implication seems to be that Galadriel is the one doing the tempting, but the notion of temptation comes from Boromir, by which he says more about himself than about Galadriel. Aragorn, not Boromir, speaks most truthfully and insightfully about Galadriel. She has not yet passed the test herself, but that does not make her a temptress. It seems to me that she is practicing the art of Osanwë, reading their thoughts and hearts and motives, and the reading thereof necessitates their awareness of what is in their hearts. I would suppose that she is aware of this "by-product", as it were; all the better for them to be aware of their own potential failings.

To have revealed to oneself the (perhaps ugly) truth about oneself is not the same as being tempted. In Boromir's case, he was unable to resist the temptation that was already in his heart, and his nailbiting is because he is now aware of that which was already there, as his owrds in the Council of Elrond show.

[Holbytlass]

Originally Posted by elempi

Neither as simple, nor innocent, as first appears in my reckoning. I read Sam's exchange with Pippin with Sam not telling all. He was offered a nice little hobbit hole ~ with Rosy in it ~ for his very own. But the stoutheartedness saves him so that his dream does come true. But a minor point as pertains to this question.

Its significance? No less than the success or failure of the mission.

Sam's desire becomes very significant a little later on when he gets to see into the mirror. IMO, I think it was relatively easier for Sam and perhaps Merry (because it was about the same desire) to deny Galadriel's offering because they knew or at least thought they knew that the Shire would always be there- the same- waiting for them. Also, we find out (Scourging of the Shire) that Rosie was there waiting for Sam.

The choice to stay with the quest or go back to that desire became hard for Sam when shown of its destruction. Sam was ready to just fly back right then and there. It was Galadriel who reminded him that to do so was to mean leaving Frodo. And Sam broke down.

*I apologize for no quotes, my books are still packed, if anyone wishes to post them feel free*

[HerenIstarion]

Macbeth

[Mirkgirl]

From what I read here, most of you are agreeing he was offered the ring. I don't think she did that... or at least not intentionally. Please bear with me as I find it a bit hard to collect my ideas on this topic, but I'll try to explain myself as clear as possible.

Before looking at their eyes/souls Galadriel says:
Yet hope remains while all the Company is true.'

True... true to what I always questioned myself. Actually they don't share a purpose, haven't taken a vow, as Elrond says on farewell:

'The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him asfree companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.'

Galadriel goes another mile for the fellowship. While Elrond is eager to grant them freedom - maybe exactly because freedom binds better with such people, Galadriel decides that the everyone of the fellowship from now on should hold to it. I'd speculate that she just wants to show them the best alternative to their current state and let them, here and now decide it's not worth leaving for. I'd guess Legolas and Aragorn were "immune" to her look, because for them there were no sugar possibilities (of course no sugar possibilities would be there for any of them if the dark lord wins, but they are less aware of it): Legolas sees the boat taking him to sea, Aragorn knows he cannot have the kingdom and with it the woman he loves, without fighting for it. Boromir also doesnt have a quiet home to go back to, for him it is in a way worse than for the other two. And I would say that Galadriel did make a mistake with placing him to the test.

He saw the salvation of Gondor through the ring in the Council already:
'The Men of Gondor are valiant, and they will never submit; but they may be beaten down. Valour needs first strength, and then a weapon. Let the Ring be your weapon, if it has such power as you say. Take it and go forth to victory!'

He isn't too sure about it but accepts the decision of the council
Boromir looked at them doubtfully, but he bowed his head. `So be it,' he said. `Then in Gondor we must trust to such weapons as we have. And at the least, while the Wise ones guard this Ring, we will fight on.

Galadriel offered him a strong and free Gondor - and he saw two ways for this to be done: firstly if the mission succeed, which he doubts and secondly, if the ring is used - he is still not certain whether the advice of the wise is not cowardness. And, honestly the idea of getting directly to Mordor as a Fellowship does look impossible - to take the chance of using the ring seems a far more sensible option.

Galadriel's test brought back to his mind these options. And I'm not sure if anyone, knowing (only) as much as Boromir knows would react with anything else than doubt.

In a nutshell I dont think Boromir wanted the ring. I don't think he saw himself as some great lord. Possibly he even entertained the thought of Aragorn as king using the ring (if only he wasnt such a coward, listening to that wizard - just as Denethor thought of Faramir). What he saw with his mind was the salvation of Gondor, he being able to be back home in the white tower without Sauron for neighbour. And as he knew the things stand it was only to be done if someone was brave enough to risk and use the ring - as the destruction seemed doomed to failure.

I don't know... that's how I see it.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Mirkgirl

In a nutshell I dont think Boromir wanted the ring. I don't think he saw himself as some great lord. Possibly he even entertained the thought of Aragorn as king using the ring (if only he wasnt such a coward, listening to that wizard - just as Denethor thought of Faramir). What he saw with his mind was the salvation of Gondor, he being able to be back home in the white tower without Sauron for neighbour. And as he knew the things stand it was only to be done if someone was brave enough to risk and use the ring - as the destruction seemed doomed to failure.

I don't know... that's how I see it.

I agree that Galadriel testing Boromir was a bad move, but we have to look at it as fate. If Boromir had not tried to take the Ring, would Frodo have made up his mind in time before the ambush? It's all about fate here. Gandalf says that himself when hearing of the death of Boromir:

“Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir’s sake.” (The Two Towers, p. 485)

I disagree however that Boromir didn't want to be a great lord. He really did. I'm Boromir's #1 supporter, so you won't catch me saying that is always a bad thing. Boromir was already the Chief Warden of the White Tower, heir to throne of Denethor...so he already had great lordly power, but not to the extent he could have had. I believe yes his main concern was for Gondor and it's people, but I would say he did want to rule as a great lord. There are a few places I can back that up-

1. “Boromir strode up and down, speaking ever more loudly. Almost he seemed to have forgotten Frodo, while his talk dwelt on walls and weapons, and the mustering of men; and he drew plans for great alliances and glorious victories to be; and he cast down Mordor, and became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise.” (The Fellowship of the Ring, p. 389, emphasis mine)

2. From Faramir - “And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that always it displeased him that his father was not king. “How many thousands of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?” he asked. “Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty,” my father answered. “In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice.” Alas! poor Boromir. Does that not tell you something of him?’” (The Two Towers, p. 655) (this passage shows Boromir's love for Gondor as well as his want of lordship)

So after those two passages in specific I would say that Boromir indeed wanted to have the power of a great lord. After all, who wouldn't?

As for everything involving Lorien- it is true like others have stated that Galadriel and the whole rest in Lothlorien revealed to Boromir his true desire, thus after their departure Boromir was uneasy and biting his nails in the boat down Anduin. These passages are very prominent in Boromir's lust for the Ring and his fighting temptation...

“I shall go to Minas Tirith, alone if need be, for it is my duty,’ said Boromir; and after that he was silent for a while, sitting with his eyes fixed on Frodo, as if he was trying to read the Halfling’s thoughts. At length he spoke again, softly, as if he was debating with himself. ‘If you wish only to destroy the Ring,’ he said, ‘then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force into his domain; and folly to throw away.’ He paused suddenly, as if he had become aware that he was speaking his thoughts aloud. ‘It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean,’ he ended. ‘It is a choice between defending a strong place and walking openly into the arms of death. At least, that is how I see it.’” (The Fellowship of the Ring, p. 360)

“Merry and Pippin in the middle boat were ill at ease, for Boromir sat muttering to himself, sometimes biting his nails, as if some restlessness or doubt consumed him, sometimes seizing a paddle and driving the boat close behind Aragorn’s. Then Pippin, who sat in the bow looking back, caught a queer gleam in his eye, as he peered forward gazing at Frodo.” (The Fellowship of the Ring, p. 373)

And lastly the words of Faramir which prove it true---

“You passed through the Hidden Land,’ said Faramir, ‘but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, ‘tis said.
‘Boromir, O Boromir!’ he cried. ‘What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then? Why went you ever to Laurelindorenan, and came not by your own road, upon the horses of Rohan riding home in the morning?’” (The Two Towers, p. 652)

It's obvious that Boromir was offered the One Ring when Galadriel looked upon him. It doesn't have to be said in text...all of these passages prove that to be so. If Boromir was simply offered the peace of Gondor, I don't think he would have "refused to listen" as well as not say what was offered. It was more than a vision of peace. It definitely involved the Ring. Like you said Mirk, Boromir didn't trust these wizards and half-elves fully, he wasn't sure of their intentions. Remember it was Denethor who was greatly suspicious of Gandalf when he came randomly into Minas Tirith, trying to tell him how to rule his City. Boromir undoubtledly had these same doubts from his father. He questioned their wisdom over what seemed to be the right choice---take the Ring and use it through strength of arms. As was said, he definitely thought Frodo walking into Mordor with the Ring was pure stupidity, and contained no hope for Middle-earth's victory. And when you think about it, he was right---if Frodo and Sam had gone into Mordor openly without Gollum's "secret way" there's no doubt they would have failed. I see it as all about fate in Tolkien's world, and in ours. That's another subject however...

[Boromir88]

I'm Boromir's #1 supporter

Is that a challenge?

Honestly though, excellent post (I wish there was a thumbs up smilie )

He questioned their wisdom over what seemed to be the right choice---take the Ring and use it through strength of arms.

And being a warrior and a commander this reaction to finding out about the Ring isn't unusual.

if Frodo and Sam had gone into Mordor openly without Gollum's "secret way" there's no doubt they would have failed. I see it as all about fate in Tolkien's world, and in ours.

In more ways than just that considering Tolkien said no one had the strength to destroy the Ring:

Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought.~Letter to Milton Waldman

The so he thought adds a bit of ambiguity but this is something Tolkien backs up with in Letter 246:

At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist,...

So, Frodo embarked on a quest that he could not accomplish. And you are right in the fact that Boromir was actually logically right. I say logically because Boromir not have hope, or maybe just didn't invision, the higher powers (in this case Eru) getting involved:

Frodo deserved all honour because he spend every last drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'~Letter 192

And this causes Boromir's ultimate downfall to the Ring. His narrow-mindedness in seeing a short term solution, believing that only through strength can Gondor win. He did not have the knowledge, or trust to hope in the way that those silly wise people did.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Is that a challenge?

haha, indeed

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Honestly though, excellent post (I wish there was a thumbs up smilie)

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And this causes Boromir's ultimate downfall to the Ring. His narrow-mindedness in seeing a short term solution, believing that only through strength can Gondor win. He did not have the knowledge, or trust to hope in the way that those silly wise people did.

Silly wise people...

Oh and that quote from the Letter #192 is very interesting. I've read it before, but that just refreshed my memory, and when I read it I immediately made the connection Frodo = Mercy, in which he had all along, as did Faramir, two of the story's chief heroes.