Tol-in-Gaurhoth XXI: Dueling Wizards Werewolf

[Celuien]

1. Nilp --> Nogrod (Nogrod 1)
2. Lhuna --> Eomer (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1)
3. Gurthang --> Lommy (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1)
4. Diamond --> Loki (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 1)
5. Eonwe --> Nilp (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 1, Nilp 1)
6. Cailín --> Oddwen (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 1, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1)
7. Caran --> Loki (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1)
8. Jenny --> SPM (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1)
9. Morm --> Kath (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1, Kath 1)
10. Naria --> Nogrod (Nogrod 2, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1, Kath 1)
11. Eomer --> Nogrod (Nogrod 3, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1, Kath 1)
12. Lommy --> Nogrod (Nogrod 4, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1, Kath 1)
13. Alcarillo --> SPM (Nogrod 4, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
14. Kath --> Lommy (Nogrod 4, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
15. Fea --> Loki (Nogrod 4, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 3, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
16. Loki --> Nogrod (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
17. Nogrod --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
18. Glirdan --> Oddwen (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1, Oddwen 1)
19. Lalaith --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 5, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
20. Celuien --> Lommy (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 3, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
21. Firefoot --> Lommy (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
22. SPM --> Alcarillo (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1)
23. Valier --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 6, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1)
24. Kitanna --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 7, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1)
25. Azaelia --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 8, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1)
26. Spawn --> Lhuna (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 8, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1, Lhuna 1)
27. Roa --> Nogrod (Nogrod 6, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 8, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1, Lhuna 1)

[Nogrod]

Just an update on the votes so far...

Loki – 8 (Diamond 4, Caran 7, Fea 15, Nogrod 17, Lalaith 19, Valier 23, Kitanna 24, Zali 25)

Nogrod – 6 (Nilp 1, Naria 10, Eomer 11, Lommy 12, Loki, Roa 27)

Lommy – 4 (Gurthang 3, Kath 14, Celuien 20, Firefoot 21)

SpM – 2 (Jenny 8, Alcarillo 13)
Oddwen – 2 (Cailin 6, Glirdan 18)

Eomer – 1 (Lhuna 2)
Nilp – 1 (Eonwe 5)
Kath – 1 (Morm 9)
Alcarillo - 1 (Spm 22)
Lhuna -1 (Spawn 26)

Sorry: I edited this same tally to my earlier post too... Well, these happen,

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Your picks are similar to mine. If I was the EW, I would've picked Diamond, Celuien, and Azaelia to be my wolves, and two of those three are on your short list.

I guess I know you're not the EW then.

[Loki]

Well, that's a buzz-kill. Celuien just posted the list I was going to put up.

It's obvious to me now that I'm going to be lynched. Good job, everyone. Way to screw up from the start. Figures that the evil team is going to get a head start just because you all didn't like my attitude. Should've listened to the logical voices. I had no reason to lie about anything.

Ah, well, nothing I can say matters now. Don't hurt too bad when you're kicking yourselves for this.

Because I don't have the time to finish my full post of reasoning and insight...
My list of suspicion:

Nogrod seems devilishly evil. Chances are good that he's something on the bad side. I don't trust him one bit.

Diamond, while simply following exactly what she had said, still grates on my mind.

Roa, a key player, made precious little voice here. Unusual to my ears. Eyes. Whatever.

The other voices simply echoed what had already been said in a failing analysis of the plot. Little can be judged of them further from the way that they vote. Most of the people who voted for me were simply jumping on the bandwagon. Look to the ringleaders if you want to find your source of malice.

All that remains now is for the truth to be revealed...

[the phantom]

It's been an interesting day. Maybe tomorrow we won't have to fly so blind.

I'll go ahead and cast a throw away vote.

+ + Roa

...because Roa is a Wizard, of course.

Azaelia, you can sleep easy tonight, for I will be sitting up all night looking out my window towards your house. If any wolves try and assault it, I'll know, and my brother Eomer and I will slice them to bits!

Alca and Cai, I'll keep an eye out for you, too. My dear Mum and Dad mean a lot to me.

[Celuien]

I'll be sorry to see you go so soon, Loki. While I still have my doubts about your GW pick story, I don't think you're a wolf.

If you are a wolf, then good riddance, but I have a feeling this isn't going to be the case.

[littlemanpoet]

And that's all for toDay, folks. Voting is now over. Any votes that appear after this one will NOT be counted.

Stay tuned for a narration of Day One's many and varied activities, discussions ... oh, and a lynching.

EDIT: I should add this:

Evil Wizard: pick a player to curse.
Good Wizard: pick a player to scry.
Werewolves: nominate a player to kill.

[littlemanpoet]

Loki the leech collector, it turned out, received less than half of the votes of the village. Nevertheless, eight was enough. He was a relatively unknown soul, having been away for years on journeys, the destinations of which, he kept to himself. Why he was named so, none knew. There was no such creature as a 'Loki' in any of the lorebooks: no werewolf, no wizard, no Ainur, no servant of Morgoth. Maybe, some supposed, the name was derived from the Common Speech, and meant a key that was not high up. Others scoffed at this notion as being too commonplace. Loki disabused neither opinion of its illusions. After all, he kept most things to himself, save his opinions of the other villagers. They did not take kindly to his airing of them. Especially one such aired that very morning.

"By Eru, both of those wizards must have been vying for the collection of my soul this night. Visions of fur and claw and tooth dominated my mind; I couldn't catch a wink. The wizarding pair of which the Watchers spoke must have lost nearly as much sleep as I in fighting over the reclaimation of my soul." He kicked a nearby puppy that had dared cross his path in the early morning. "Thankfully, perhaps, I neither lost my life in the scrap nor transformed into one of those foul lycanthropes."

"So you say, Loki," Nogrod grated. "So you say."

Celuien and her father mormegil pointed their fingers at Eomer. "You're wolfish toward our Kitanna!"

"But we're in love!" he countered. "Just ask her!"

"She can't think straight," Celuien returned, eyeing Eomer narrowly.

More recriminations passed between family units, but finally and mercifully lost venom and bite, for some of the villagers began to turn their minds and the talk to strategy. Gurthang started it.

"It's those blasted wizards, I tell you! That's the core of this problem. Those Watchers told us this would happen, and here it is. And what's worse? We can't even get rid of this Evil fellow ourselves! The Good Wizard has to do it for us. And until that time, we won't have any clue what's happening. Until the wizards are gone."

"To figure the wizards out," said the phantom, gathering in the attention of the others with quick glances to each in turn, "all you have to do is think about what the two wizards fear."

"Each other?" asked Naria.

"It's all about balance," the phantom intoned sagely.

"That's all well and good, phantom," momma Diamond said, "but I've consulted my Werewolf lorebooks, and they say: When a red fox and a brown cow frolic in the ocean, you will know who the Wizards are." Diamond screwed up her face in confusion and frowned crossly. "Bloody lot of help the lorebooks turned out to be." She threw her lorebook into the fire and the whole village watched it burn, most of them wishing it was the evil wizard.

Diamond's eldest daughter Lhuna was the first to break the silence. "Well, the wizards are standing with us. Why doesn't the good wizard just come forward and help us out?"

"Not so hasty!" the aged Cailín cried. "The young! Ack! Always ready to jump into the frying pan before the fire's been cooled!"

Nilpaurion stepped forward. "I'm a wizard."

"Which one! Which one!" the villagers cried.

"Of apathy. You know you're going to lynch me."

They stared at him for one pregnant moment.

"Ah, he's just faking," said Celuien.

At this point, the village debaters got hungry and thirsty, and they retired to the Salty Seal to refresh their minds and put an end to their famishing. Saucy held forth under his own roof, declaring whom he thought the evil wizard would pick as werewolves, but did not find much support. The villagers did, however, support his brewer's reputation by quaffing a healthy amount of his beers and ales, even little Lommy, who did agree with Saucy, though the others wrote this off to her inability to hold her ale well.

The votes began to pile up. Six suspects quickly received one vote each, which meant nothing and they all knew it. There was a gentle murmur as suddenly Loki received a second vote. Two more suspects were added to the list before Nogrod joined Loki with multiple votes. The crowed murmured. Diamond was heard to complain that she was not too keen on losing both her father and her husband in one day. Apparently, she was not heeded as her husband quickly garnered a small lead in the votes. The beerhall owner himself gained another vote, as well as his young little supporter Lommy, which drew the wrath of Roa, who insisted that her husband Sleepy would agree with her had he been in town, but he was wandering for the day for old time's sake. After a few more votes, Loki and Nogrod were again tied. Lommy received two more votes, then Loki a few more, with late votes for Lhuna and Roa, and a final for Nogrod. The result was decisive but not overly so.

"Loki," mormegil said, "today is your last day to leech. Speak your peace to whatever Vala you hold sacred."

"That would be not a Vala but Eru. I have done so."

As the sun was setting, the villagers led Loki, now bound, to the tallest tree, a beech, that spread its branches both high and wide. One branch extended like a giant's muscular arm, ten feet above the ground. A rope was slung over the branch and tied tight, then knotted and placed around Loki's neck. They stood him on a makeshift stool.

"Any last words?" mormegil asked.

"Yes. You'll be sorry."

"Zali," said mormegil, "you cast the final vote. Remove the stool."

She grimaced. "Do I have to?"

"I'll do it!" cried the phantom. Without a moment's hesitation, he saved his dearest from having to do the ugly deed, and kicked the stool out from under their victim. He dropped. His neck broke. All watched to see if he would change. He did not.

The villagers filed to their homes, leaving the unfortunate Loki to hang, and the late Elempi sprawled, still, at the base of the Watcher rock.

~ The Dead ~

Elempi, father of Diamond of the Battledore
Loki the leech collector

~ The Living ~

Diamond of the Battledore
Celuien the Healer and Cupper
Caranlondien the Sled-Team Driver
Roa Aoife the weaver
Nogrod the retired jester
Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant the Baker
Kath the minstrel
Lommy the little girl who steals other children's candy
Lhunardawen the jeweler
Glirdan with the giant crush on Kath
Valier the gardener
Sleepy Ranger the former wanderer
Kitanna the beloved of Eomer
Firefoot the artist
Alcarillo the old retired sea captain
Cailín the match maker
Oddwen the filthy, insane street urchin who steals chickens
mormegil the retired mariner and current mayor
Feanor the shepherdess with a love of alliteration
Zali the seamstress and beloved of the phantom
the phantom the loud, unpredictable, adventurer
Naria the servant who empties and cleans chamber pots
Jenny Hallu the unmarried maiden & aunt
The Saucepan Man the barkeep
Lalaith the frivolous aunt and guardian of Oddwen
Eonwe the freeloading husband of Lhunardawen
Eomer the adventurer & lover of Kitanna
Nilpaurion the ne'er do well hubby of Dancing Spawn
Gurthang the stable-hand

[littlemanpoet]

The evil wizard sucked in breath in anticipation of the second kill. From this one's life also the evil wizard would get strength for spells. The evil wizard spoke to the werewolves and commanded them to choose one villager to eat, bringing back one thing only from the kill.

They went out into the darkness and were silent in their hunting, coming at an hour past midnight to the house of the one whom they would devour.

The good wizard gave serious thought to whom to scry. It took a few hours to come to a conclusion. The scry was made. The villager scried was ordinary. The good wizard gifted the villager to be the seer. The only problem was that by the time this occurred, it was mere minutes before dawn. The seer didn't dream.

The Saucepan Man's given name had been long forgotten. In the days of his youth he had left the village, as many were wont to do, and wandered in foreign parts to see what new lore he could discover regarding the prophesied curse upon Sealville. He was gone for two years.

When he returned, there were not a few who decided that he'd gotten 'tetched' in the noggin, as they called it. He had arrived back in Sealville carrying a half dozen saucepans, and told everyone that he would not respond to any other name than The Saucepan Man, or derivatives thereof. "What are you wanting with so many saucepans?" they asked. "Never you mind," he answered. "But there's another reason for my name," he added mysteriously with a smirk.

It was not long before the villagers understood what he meant. He set himself up as the local barkeep, and created many a fine drink, be they beers, ales, or more exotic delectables. He called them all his "sauce". So they took to calling him Saucy. He seemed to like it well enough, and grinned when named so.

The Healer and Cupper in town, Celuien, turned her head in his direction, for his business was solid and he was not half bad looking a fellow for all his saucey talk. Mormegil, her father, wasn't sure he liked the fellow so much as being a barkeep was not as good in his eye as being a mariner, but Celuien was determined, and finally Mormegil gave his blessing. The two were married with great celebration, and in another couple years, the sisters Naria and Kitanna graced the home and hearth and filled it with laughter.

Saucy considered himself a happy man, blessed with a healer for a wife and two daughters that took their looks more from their mother than their father, which was a good thing. Naria and Kitanna flowered into beautiful young ladies, bringing into the lives of their parents the complications in the case of Kitanna the attentions of Eomer the young rapscallion; in the case of Naria a job so smelly that the men stayed far away. "Maybe she wants it that way," Celuien was overheard to tell her husband. "Well and good, I say," Saucy responded. "until she's found the right man." "If she finds one," her mother worried.

So it was a sad morning for Celuien, Naria, and Kitanna, when the villagers filed just after dawn to the Watcher rock and found sprawled there the body of Saucy. Celuien wailed. Naria and Kitanna wept into their kerchiefs. Not only had his face been clawed and his limbs reduced to rags of flesh; his chest had been opened and his heart removed.

"Villains!" cried Celuien. "Murderers!" wailed Naria. "Monsters!" shouted Kitanna, raising her fist.

Eomer put his arm around his love and she wept upon his shoulder. "Come, Celuien, Naria, I cannot replace your husband and father, but I will do what I can."

EDIT: Only then did the villagers notice that the body of Elempi no longer lay in front of the Watchers, who seemed as sad, and watchful, and unmoving, as ever. Then they noticed that where there had been an open commons of grass, there were now two headstones and brown earth heaped before them. The villagers noticed that there was much room left in this new graveyard for more bodies. Many of them shuddered. Two headstones. As they filed back from the shoreline toward the village, they noticed with no surprise that Loki no longer hung from the beech tree limb. They knew where he was. And they believed that they knew who had buried them.

~ The Tally ~
One Evil Wizard
One Good Wizard
Three Werewolves
One Gifted
Zero Known Innocents
Three Dead
Twenty-Eight Living

~ The Dead ~

Elempi, father of Diamond of the Battledore: killed on Night One
Loki the leech collector: lynched on Day One with 8 votes
The Saucepan Man the barkeep: killed on Night Two

~ The Living ~

Diamond of the Battledore
Celuien the Healer and Cupper
Caranlondien the Sled-Team Driver
Roa Aoife the weaver
Nogrod the retired jester
Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant the Baker
Kath the minstrel
Lommy the little girl who steals other children's candy
Lhunardawen the jeweler
Glirdan with the giant crush on Kath
Valier the gardener
Sleepy Ranger the former wanderer
Kitanna the beloved of Eomer
Firefoot the artist
Alcarillo the old retired sea captain
Cailín the match maker
Oddwen the filthy, insane street urchin who steals chickens
mormegil the retired mariner and current mayor
Feanor the shepherdess with a love of alliteration
Zali the seamstress and beloved of the phantom
the phantom the loud, unpredictable, adventurer
Naria the servant who empties and cleans chamber pots
Jenny Hallu the unmarried maiden & aunt
Lalaith the frivolous aunt and guardian of Oddwen
Eonwe the freeloading husband of Lhunardawen
Eomer the adventurer & lover of Kitanna
Nilpaurion the ne'er do well hubby of Dancing Spawn
Gurthang the stable-hand

[Diamond18]

NOTICE: I wrote this without knowing who would die, so my responses to SpM will look odd. But I thought I’d leave them in there because they include some of my opinions on Wizards.

Oh, and poor SpM. My condolences to his family. Though I’m sure Morm is doing a little jig.


Since I was away for much of the peak discussion time (four pages, people!!!!) I have some belated comments and replies from yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Spawn

Now, phantom makes the situation sound pretty bright for us, but that's what the Evil Wizard would like to do; to make the Villagers believe that we don't have much to be scared of.

I don’t quite follow this logic. I didn’t find tp’s posts to be particularly EWish yesterDay, especially since he advocated revealing the Wizards. I think the EW is aiming for the most discretion. So I’m not sure why you would want to cast EW suspicions his way for doing pretty much the opposite of what I’d suspect the EW to be saying.

Originally Posted by SpM

Yet it is not village affairs that have guided the Evil Wizard’s hand, I am sure, but cold, hard logic.

Or not. You can’t know that for sure. The EW might make some wild moves to keep away from the scent of those looking for logic.

Originally Posted by Spm

Were I the Evil Wizard, I would have chosen from the following villagers:

Cailín, Lalaith, Caranlondien, Celuien, Valier, Kitanna, Azaelia or Naria, Oddwen, Alcarillo, Roa, Firefoot, Diamond and Gurthang.

I do think this is a sensible list. From a logical standpoint. But it might also be a good idea, if the EW manages to get a good sized pack of wolves, to throw some high profile players into the mix to use them, essentially, as meat puppets. Also, to prevent them from being Gifteds.

Originally Posted by Spm

Gurthang was, I think, the first to bring up the idea of looking for the Wizards. My initial reaction was to suspect him for it. I still do, slightly, since he was talking about finding both Wizards. I think we should, as far as we can, try to avoid identifying the Good Wizard, at this stage at least. With no Gifteds and two Wolves to hide among a great number of villagers, the Evil Wizard might fancy his/her chances at this point and call the Good Wizard out. Even if s/he does not, identifying the GW would still allow the EW to pick his/her time, provided s/he remains hidden. For this reason, I am also wary of Lhuna’s suggestion that the GW might want to declare today.

This, I find strange. As I said to Fea above, I think the EW will be advocating discretion, since keeping people away from looking for and talking about wizardly behavior. I find it unlikely that you would be made the Evil Wizard, however, since you are the most Evil person here to begin with. So I’m not sure what to make of this reluctance.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

And why, may I ask, are you attacking my siblings? What has my family ever done to yours to deserve this kind of treatment?

Ah, if I’m allowed a bit of frivolity on Day 2 -- it’s only natural, Glirdan, that our families should be at odds. We’re the two largest units, ergo there must be a fight for supremacy. Or at least, there would have been if everyone had not been so agreeable about my list and refuse to engage in family feuding. But now we’re kind of past the Day 1 fun of family voting blocks, so it doesn’t much matter anymore.

Originally Posted by Fea

I also agree with whomever it was that mentioned searching out the wizards. It gives us a legitimate project for day one. It will put them off guard. Sure, it would mean sacrificing the good wizard in all probability, but since the good wizard lives to die in such a way, I won't feel too badly about it. Consider: who would expect that an entire village would gang up on their wizards? Surely we would want to keep our good wizard around. Blah blah pros and cons blah blah. With the pressure of an entire village actively seeking, the evil wizard will have to be REALLY good to avoid screwing up.

Not much more to say except that I agree with this and am of basically the same mind. The GW lives to be martyred in order to cease the creation of Wolves. Nuff said.

Originally Posted by tp

Phantom=EW would lead to a resounding villager victory, I assure you.

I tend to agree with this, in the sense that tp is one of the ones more likely to be found out by the GW or Seer pretty quickly. Which is why I doubt that he would have been selected for this role. However, just so we’re not disregarding every possibility, we have to remember that in this village there are many players with equally or more prominent reputations than tp, so with all these illustrious veterans for wizard and seer to choose from, you can’t automatically assume that tp couldn’t get by.

Still, I think it unlikely that the Mod God would choose him to be the EW. However, I think it highly likely that he’d be chosen to be the GW. Make of that what you will.

Originally Posted by Fea

The evil wizard (okay... speaking plainly now...) volunteered for the job. The evil wizard, ergo, is somebody with a bit of time on his or her hands at the moment. The evil wizard is probably not going to be one of the students playing with finals coming up. The evil wizard is probably not going to be somebody that can't guarantee specific hours during the day in which to take care of wizarding business. The evil wizard (and the good, yes, the good) are going to be players with a bit of time to spare.

I’m not sure this is the best way to go about figuring out the Wizards. Really, everyone has a life to attend to. Maybe we can rule out those really strapped for time, but how many is that, anyway? Judging from the massive amount of posting, I’d say the number of people with time enough for wizarding is enough that paying too much attention to this criteria might not be as helpful as you think. Especially since no one really has the best handle on other people’s schedules.

Originally Posted by SpM

By deleting from my previous list those who I think the GW might pick as a choice of Gifted, I can narrow it down further, as follows:

Azaelia, Oddwen, Alcarillo, Roa, Diamond or Gurthang

So, you don’t think we’re good enough for the Good Wizard? Meh.

Originally Posted by Eomer

Celuien, Caranlondien, Roa, Nogrod, Alcarillo, Cailín, Oddwen, Jenny, Lalaith or Gurthang.

Others are more likely to be lynched early on, or dreamed about by a Seer, or scried by the GW.

Out of curiosity, since I’m not on your list, which of those three alternatives do I fall under? (Narcissist much, Diamond?)

Originally Posted by Loki

Breezed through the posts real quick, much suprised by everyone's reactions. Mostly that no one had considered that, in fact, I was telling the truth. No one had considered that my defensiveness is a matter of a far more personal nature, and I came into the game dead-set of simply playing to my personality. No one considered that I was operating solely on instinct.

Strange replying to a dead man, but since this applies somewhat to reasons I and others had for voting him (which will no doubt come under scrutiny toDay) I wanted to point out that this is completely false. People did consider it. I thought it quite possible that he was being truthful. I just said we shouldn’t rush to believe him automatically. So, as I said when I voted, that wasn’t even my main motivation for voting. My main reason was because, in lieu of any serious suspicions of anyone else, I felt most comfortable for voting off a person I felt endangered the focus and sanity of the village. No matter what his motivations were.

Originally Posted by Roa

So, assuming Loki's innocense, I look to those most eager to lynch him.

Well, I figured you’d say that. I’ve been kind of thinking that you’re the friend who invited him -- I found the unwillingness to share that info somewhat strange and overly mysterious and I have more to say on this later -- but anyway, I’ve said why I was eager to lynch him and it stands, for better or worse. His last post just reinforced my “good riddance” attitude. Innocent or not, in a situation where it was pretty likely an innocent would be lynched (with 26 innocents to 2 werewolves and 2 wizards, the chances of losing an innocent were extremely, ridiculously high) I was quite comfortable with losing him as opposed to anyone else. You won’t see me kicking myself over it.

Originally Posted by tp

Your picks are similar to mine. If I was the EW, I would've picked Diamond, Celuien, and Azaelia to be my wolves, and two of those three are on your short list.

Which confirms my thought that you are not, in fact, the Evil Wizard.

Originally Posted by tp

...because Roa is a Wizard, of course.

At the risk of sounding too eager to agree with tp all the time, I have to say I was thinking this, too. I figured, if Loki was picked by both Wizards the first Night like he said, one of the Wizards might be the friend who invited him to join our village -- because despite the possibilities expressed, I personally think him an odd choice for the Wizards, logically speaking. So, I feel that if he was indeed picked, it was not entirely logical on the part of one Wizard, hence friendship could be involved. That’s the only reason I could think of for concealing that matter. If this “friend” had aspirations to be a Wizard, they wouldn’t want people having a chance of making this connection. But since I was making the connection, I really wanted to figure out who that friend might be, and I decided on either Roa or Gurthang, the only two who seemed to feel the need to defend Loki’s behavior before and after the event of Elempi’s murder.

So anyway, that’s my crackpot theory.

[Diamond18]

By the by, O Mysterious Voice from the Heavens:

Don't we get to know about the creation of any more wolves or Gifteds? I was assuming that the sort of narration we got for Night 1 (which told us that three wolves had been created but then one wolf had been turned back into an ordo) would be repeated each Day opener.

[littlemanpoet]

Good point. I shall fix the Day Two narration. My fault.

[Celuien]

You cruel monsters! You've taken one I loved more dear than my own life. Hear me now - at the moment you struck your blow to my husband, you earned my undying wrath, and I will never rest until justice is done, or death takes me!

But why my poor, harmless Saucy? I know his mind was feared, for he was a man of great intellect. But why now, so soon after the curse fell, and after he came under suspicion yesterday? There are others equally to be feared by the wolves in this village. He might have had something right yesterday - too right for his own good. I'll go back to look over his last words and see if I can learn anything.

Justice!

[Celuien]

SPM:
63: Pointed out that the EW was unlikely to select likely Seer dream candidates or likely lynching targets. Doubted Loki was chosen by the EW. Provided this list of possible EW picks:

1 of Cailín, Lalaith, Caranlondien or Celuien
1 of Valier, Kitanna, Azaelia or Naria, Oddwen, or Alcarillo
1 of Roa, Firefoot, Diamond or Gurthang

Wanted to unearth the EW.

64: Initial suspicion of Gurthang for bringing up searching for the wizard because he included both the EW and GW in his plan. Suggests that the GW should remain hidden, was therefore wary of Lhuna for suggesting that the GW should declare.

114: Said that the EW almost certainly has experience with werewolves, doubts that anyone likely to be scryed of dreamed of early is the EW. Finds it unlikely that any “big names” were selected night one due to risk of dream/lynching and there is plenty of time to recruit from the “big names.” Says Loki is disregarded as a wolf because he is a likely day 1 lynch. Says that Azaelia, Oddwen, Alcarillo, Roa, Diamond or Gurthang are the most likely to have been chosen by the EW since they are the ones from his prior list least likely to have been chosen by the GW as gifteds.

117: Wants to avoid deliberately outing the GW, replies to Jenny about his opinions of Loki. Doesn’t want to vote for Oddwen as he feels her non-vote makes her too conspicuous to be a likely move for a wolf.

193: Vote for Alcarillo because he would have been one of SPM’s picks if he had been the EW.

If I operate under the assumption that SPM was killed for getting something right, this looks bad for Azaelia, Oddwen, Alcarillo, Roa, Diamond or Gurthang. I wonder, though, if Alcarillo would have agreed to the wolvish plan of attack on Saucy as it’s a little too risky a position to put him in since he voted for SPM yesterday as well as being voted for by SPM.

Back later…

[Glirdan]

Tis a sad day in this village, a very sad day for we have lost not only our bartender, but one of those whose aid we really could have used. My condolences go out to all of his family.

Oh, and poor SpM. My condolences to his family. Though I’m sure Morm is doing a little jig.(Diamond)

Now I don't mean to sound accusatory, but is it possible that this father in-law could possilby have taken the life of his son in-law? I mean, he never liked SpM, so how do we know that he didn't go after SpM out of pure spite?

Or not. You can’t know that for sure. The EW might make some wild moves to keep away from the scent of those looking for logic.(Diamond)

And this is a reason why I'm hesitant to cast suspicion upon morm for it could very well be that the EW chose SpM because he's dangerous and smart.

At the risk of sounding too eager to agree with tp all the time, I have to say I was thinking this, too. I figured, if Loki was picked by both Wizards the first Night like he said, one of the Wizards might be the friend who invited him to join our village -- because despite the possibilities expressed, I personally think him an odd choice for the Wizards, logically speaking. So, I feel that if he was indeed picked, it was not entirely logical on the part of one Wizard, hence friendship could be involved. That’s the only reason I could think of for concealing that matter. If this “friend” had aspirations to be a Wizard, they wouldn’t want people having a chance of making this connection. But since I was making the connection, I really wanted to figure out who that friend might be, and I decided on either Roa or Gurthang, the only two who seemed to feel the need to defend Loki’s behavior before and after the event of Elempi’s murder.(Diamond)

You know, this theory isn't as far fetched as it sounds. This could possibly be true. I'm pretty sure, however, that my mother has no connection to this "Loki" character. Nowhere in my lorebooks does it say that these two have any connection. But we can't be to certain of this. Mother, are you hiding something from us?

I'm afraid to say that I shall be going on a little trip for two days or so (that would be the next [possible] four days in RL) so I will not be able to contirbute much and I will also have to make a rather early vote for toDay. Mother, Father, I'm sorry about the short notice of this but I've actually been planning it for about a week now. I need to get away to think. Please don't worry. Lommy, don't worry about me, I'll be fine. Don't forget that your brother will always be there for you. Cara, please take good care of our family.

I will be back with a vote tally from yesterDay and compare it to that list which Celuien has just put up.

[littlemanpoet]

If you have not noticed it, please do take note of an italicized edit to the Day Two Begins post above. I apologize for my forgetfulness and any resulting confusion.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Celuien

If I operate under the assumption that SPM was killed for getting something right, this looks bad for Azaelia, Oddwen, Alcarillo, Roa, Diamond or Gurthang. I wonder, though, if Alcarillo would have agreed to the wolvish plan of attack on Saucy as it’s a little too risky a position to put him in since he voted for SPM yesterday as well as being voted for by SPM.

Thanks for the review -- I'd just finished going through everything and writing up my long post, so I had a little inward groan at the thought of going back to make an overview of SpM's posts.

Now, as to your conclusion. This is possible -- but consider that not only Alcarillo has reason to be wary of killing SpM. Everyone he mentions has reason. My lorebook (a bit singed but otherwise none the worse for wear) notes that often people are killed to divert suspicion onto those they were erroneously pointing fingers at. In fact, an ancestor of mine was killed for a somewhat simliar reason, prior to her death she pointed fingers at three people in particular, none of whom turned out guilty.

Of coures, due to this we now have the opportunity for double bluffing. I.E. "People will think it would be too bold for the wolves on this list to kill him, so let's kill him."

*considers chucking lorebooks again, abstains this time*

[Nogrod]

Celuien! I know how you feel! Losing someone dear to you is just so agonizing! Believe me, Me and Di (and our children) have felt it already. And I duly agree with you, that we should see about what he said yesterday. Anyhow: those are the most open clues we have so far to this catastrophy.

And this looks so grim, that I'm not sure I can trust anyone anymore. I'd hope to stick with my family (which I kind of do anyways - at least now in the early hours of the day), and by this loss on your family, I'd like to believe in your family as well. But we should be open to even the most grimacing events here, and be aware of everyone... even our own family members.

Then I see my wife has been kind of vocal here in the morning. And I must agree with her in many respects. *also trying to duck a battledore*

I'm sad that Loki had to go. I for myself tried to get him lynched yesterday, as I was myself being bandwaggoned and he was the second one in the line. And even as I know now his innocence, I stand by my vote and the reasons for it. They were believable, but wrong. This happens, sadly.

Concerning the EW. S/he would do well to enlist people who are not the primary targets / most vocal ones (as they are in most cases the first to be lynched). In this I accord with both Spm and my wife. But I would like to insist in the fact, that after one of the "reputation"-people would have gotten to be relied on, s/he would really want to pick that one as a wolf. We must remember, that the dynamics of this game are different from a basic WW-game. Not only are there ever more wolves day after day, but they also are hand-picked (not random). And the wizards are also hand-picked, and will not be either the obvious ones or just random (because one has had to apply for the job). I agree with my wife with the fact that we should not just overlook any students with their exams in here. All the people seem to have time to write here...

But we have a second downside here too. As the wolves (probably) don't know each other, we can't track their mutual posting! That struck me today. We are totally at loss with any wolf-scheming, if they do not know each other. In many games I've been in, we have had lots of material to speculate over, as we have thought about them as werecreatures making comments while knowing each other - and knowing the innocents. That has lead to a many a wolf's death, but now we probably don't have that chance (or then the EW is a stupid person).

So. No steady roles (one might be converted in the middle of the game), no wolf-talk in the game (as they can't do it)... That's looking bad, as I said this earlier in the discussion thread (agreeing with Loki here). We are really in trouble.

But heads up. We will fight. I'm going to sleep now, but will be back with you later on the day.

[Glirdan]

1. Nilp --> Nogrod (Nogrod 1)
2. Lhuna --> Eomer (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1)
3. Gurthang --> Lommy (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1)
4. Diamond --> Loki (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 1)
5. Eonwe --> Nilp (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 1, Nilp 1)
6. Cailín --> Oddwen (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 1, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1)
7. Caran --> Loki (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1)
8. Jenny --> SPM (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1)
9. Morm --> Kath (Nogrod 1, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1, Kath 1)
10. Naria --> Nogrod (Nogrod 2, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1, Kath 1)
11. Eomer --> Nogrod (Nogrod 3, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1, Kath 1)
12. Lommy --> Nogrod (Nogrod 4, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 1, Kath 1)
13. Alcarillo --> SPM (Nogrod 4, Eomer 1, Lommy 1, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
14. Kath --> Lommy (Nogrod 4, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
15. Fea --> Loki (Nogrod 4, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 3, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
16. Loki --> Nogrod (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 2, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
17. Nogrod --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 1, SPM 2, Kath 1)
18. Glirdan --> Oddwen (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1)
19. Lalaith --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 2, Loki 5, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1)
20. Celuien --> Lommy (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 3, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1)
21. Firefoot --> Lommy (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1)
22. SPM --> Alcarillo (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 4, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1)
23. Valier --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 6, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1)
24. Kitanna --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 7, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1)
25. Azaelia --> Loki (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 8, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1)
26. Spawn --> Lhuna (Nogrod 5, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 8, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1, Lhuna 1)
27. Roa --> Nogrod (Nogrod 6, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 8, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillo 1, Lhuna 1)
28. tp ---> Roa ( Nogrod 6, Eomer 1, Lommy 4, Loki 8, Nilp 1, Oddwen 2, SPM 2, Kath 1, Alcarillor 1, Lhuna 1)

Those who voted SpM are - Jenny and Alcarillo.

Now, if we look at the list that Celuien has so kindly put up, her husband's list of possible EW choices on a Day was:

Cailín, Lalaith, Caranlondien, Celuien, Valier, Kitanna, Azaelia or Naria, Oddwen, Alcarillo, Roa, Firefoot, Diamond and Gurthang.(SpM)

Then, he split them up into three groups which was:

1 of Cailín, Lalaith, Caranlondien or Celuien
1 of Valier, Kitanna, Azaelia or Naria, Oddwen, or Alcarillo
1 of Roa, Firefoot, Diamond or Gurthang

Now, this looks, as Celuien said, bad for Alcarillo. However, I don't see it like that. The way I think of it, I find that this actually speaks in Alcarillo's favor. Why, if he voted for him the Day before, would he want to attack him at Night if he knew that it would put suspicion on him. And if he was one of the two Wolves, why would he sacrifice himself if there was only the two? Now, Alcarillo is a kiniving player but I don't see why he would be as bold as this.

Then there's Jenny who wasn't on that list of possible EW picks. Is it possible that she is one of the Wolves? The way I see it is that if she is a Wolf, after seeing that list, she thought "Hey! He doesn't think I have potential to be a possible EW candidate!" This could lead to one of two things: a) She was vindictive and decided to go after him out of pure spite. b) She took this opportunity to attack because it wouldn't leave any trails, especially if she used the excuse I gave above for Alcarillo:"I voted for him. Why would I attack him knowing that I would be looked at the next Day?"

Now, I'm not saying that either is a Wolf, but I'm not saying that they're out of my suspicions list. If anything, they have moved way up on my list. Now, you can look at that anyway you want. I'm going to go for a quick walk to clear my head. If you need me, call.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Now, as to your conclusion. This is possible -- but consider that not only Alcarillo has reason to be wary of killing SpM. Everyone he mentions has reason. My lorebook (a bit singed but otherwise none the worse for wear) notes that often people are killed to divert suspicion onto those they were erroneously pointing fingers at. In fact, an ancestor of mine was killed for a somewhat simliar reason, prior to her death she pointed fingers at three people in particular, none of whom turned out guilty.

Of coures, due to this we now have the opportunity for double bluffing. I.E. "People will think it would be too bold for the wolves on this list to kill him, so let's kill him."

Point taken. My werewolf lorebooks speak of an ancestor of mine, however, who once discounted a villager's guilt for the reason that the nighttime kill would have brought too much suspicion upon that villager. She was wrong. The villager did turn out to be lupine. Bluff and double bluff can be very effective.

I haven't looked over my late husband's suspects yet. Honestly, there were so many that the thought of analysing all of them is painful. But my intuition says that you, Cailin and Gurthang are innocent. The others I'm unsure of. I fear I'm going to have to trudge off and take a closer look at everyone.

Now I don't mean to sound accusatory, but is it possible that this father in-law could possilby have taken the life of his son in-law? I mean, he never liked SpM, so how do we know that he didn't go after SpM out of pure spite?

I don't know, Glirdy. While my father often said he'd like to kill my poor husband, I don't think there's much evidence for his being a wolf. Of course, there isn't much evidence of anything from yesterday. How like a politician. But I'd rather that we didn't start throwing random accusations at him for his personal dislike of my marriage. I'd prefer not to lose any more of my family for the present.

EDIT: Crossed with Nogrod and Glirdan

[Glirdan]

I don't know, Glirdy. While my father often said he'd like to kill my poor husband, I don't think there's much evidence for his being a wolf. Of course, there isn't much evidence of anything from yesterday. How like a politician. But I'd rather that we didn't start throwing random accusations at him for his personal dislike of my marriage. I'd prefer not to lose any more of my family for the present.

Like I said, I didn't want to sound accusatory but we must look at all possible options.

Btw, crossposted in my other post with those above me

[Alcarillo]

It looks like I have some defending to do.

If I were a wolf (which I'm not), and I killed the Saucepan Man, what good would that do me? If people said "Oh, it's too risky, Alc would never do it" and my fiendish plot succeeded, there'd be no guaranteeing I'd be thought of as innocent for long when anybody can be turned into a wolf any night. And then there'd be the risk of people saying "Alc's double bluffing. He's a wolf! ++Alc!". And then I'd be dead as a door-nail. I could either gain temporary innocence or die really quick. Why would I risk it when I can just lay low and survive far longer?

Whatever people would say, there'd certainly be plenty of discussion about me. Why on earth would I want this attention?! You people know my ancestors' methods of survival: laying low, keeping quiet. This doesn't fit with me killing Saucie. I'm not a werewolf, and if I were, I wouldn't be as dumb as killing Saucie.

And besides, Saucie always had a beer at hand whenever I returned to port, and he was most understanding of my son's courtship with Kitanna, having had a rocky time with in-laws himself.

[mormegil]

Okay, first sorry about yesterday's inactivity. Hopefully it won't happen again.

Second, I cannot for the life of me understand why you killed of Loki. He screamed innocence to me and I do believe he was the double pick of the night. I do not know this for certain but his claims rang true in my ears. I actually didn't find him offensive or rude and think that many of you who went after him should feel slightly ashamed at yourselfs for ganging up on him. I haven't decided yet if I believe the EW is in the group of votes for him or not. Lalaith's 'cannon fodder' idea makes great sense and that is why I consider that to be a possibility.

Third, I plea to slow down!!! 200 posts! That's just ridiculous. There is no way a sane person can keep up with that. For the next day or two we should try and keep a small check on our post and not go overboard in size or quantity.

Fourth, the phantom is innocent! I can sense it in him and there are others that I believe are innocent such as Eomer, Fea, Firefoot, Spawn, Roa and others that I can't think of currently. That was yesterday and today could change that.

Fifth, GW please get your pick in quickly and everybody WAKE UP and check periodically to see if you are a new gifted. We cannot afford to loose dreams or protections.

Finally Celuien, Diamond and Glirdan are looking rather suspicious today though admittedly I am posting this after reading only a couple of today's posts. But all of their reactions seem markedly odd. Though I am sorry for my poor daughter and granddaughters for their loss. Even though I didn't always agree with the chap he treated my family well enough.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But we have a second downside here too. As the wolves (probably) don't know each other, we can't track their mutual posting! That struck me today. We are totally at loss with any wolf-scheming, if they do not know each other. In many games I've been in, we have had lots of material to speculate over, as we have thought about them as werecreatures making comments while knowing each other - and knowing the innocents. That has lead to a many a wolf's death, but now we probably don't have that chance (or then the EW is a stupid person).

I revert back to my first post. This is one of the main reasons we have to find a wizard, preferable of the Evil orientation.

But Nogrod is completely right. And more than that, I think that Saucepan's death tells us little. Well, it tells us that at least one wolf voted for him last Night, but it might have only been one. I'm thinking (meaning I don't know for sure), since there are only three wolves, that they all voted differently. And since that leaves only three possible kill choices, it is no surpise to me that Saucey would have been chosen out of three.

And, quite frankly, knowing for sure that one wolf voted initially for Saucepan* doesn't really help us. They could have had any reason for it. Although I would think that it was for his smartness. Which speaks ill ahead for those such as the phantom and morm and others.

I'm thinking that what we should look for is jumpiness concerning voting. Well, how about out of the ordinary jumpiness. I know a few who jump everytime they see their name in someone else's post.

I'm gonna go back and look at each person's reaction after each vote they received. Might take a little time.


*We're sure that one wolf voted for him, but we don't know if a second or third did. They could have. But we only know that one did for sure.

[Caranlondien]

Alas for poor SPM and his family! Not to mention how our village is now down a barkeep. Regarding the wolves' choice, on the one hand, he was garnering suspicion, which makes his death look odd. But given the fact he was innocent, I can't say I'm surprised. SPM would have been dangerous to the EW and the wolves were he ever to become a gifted.

As for lynching Loki yesterDay, what Diamond has already said about that goes for me also. On a personal level, I'm sorry for having lynched an innocent newbie. I think doing so is something to be avoided, in general. However, someone has to be lynched on Day 1! We never have much to go on, and thus I voted for the person I honestly found most suspicious given our very limited evidence. This time, those criteria happened to point to our unfortunate leech-collector. I apologize to Loki, but I stand by my vote. Day 1 is pretty darn random, and our chances were slim of not lynching an innocent.

I don't think we can expect to find many clues from what SPM said yesterDay. The werewolves couldn't have thought him a gifted, because we didn't have any yet. And even if they thought he was the GW, the only thing the GW knew yesterDay was the identity of one innocent who had for a very brief time been a wolf. I tend to think he was killed for his reputation as someone you don't want on the team opposite yours.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Hold up, I didn't say this unless I did it under the influence of pain killers which I've not been on since Friday afternoon.

However your points about tp being EWish are ones that I agree with. I don't quite see him in the role. I'll kick myself if I'm wrong, but I don't.

Originally Posted by Twinkly

I’m not sure this is the best way to go about figuring out the Wizards.

It's not the best. Actually, when it comes to actively finding wizards, it's a pretty bad way. However it is something that we can keep in mind, and something is better than nothing.

Originally Posted by Skittles

But since I was making the connection, I really wanted to figure out who that friend might be, and I decided on either Roa or Gurthang, the only two who seemed to feel the need to defend Loki’s behavior before and after the event of Elempi’s murder.

I've been wondering about Roa as "the friend" for a while now too. I have no final thoughts on her wizardliness, however, and while I lean a little toward Loki as that double-choice, it's not because of her, it's because that's the choice I'd have made. He was a controversial newbie. People would have taken him for granted. Theoretically. If he didn't screw it up. But the point is moot since he's dead and we don't know what he was.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I would like to insist in the fact, that after one of the "reputation"-people would have gotten to be relied on, s/he would really want to pick that one as a wolf. We must remember, that the dynamics of this game are different from a basic WW-game. Not only are there ever more wolves day after day, but they also are hand-picked (not random). And the wizards are also hand-picked, and will not be either the obvious ones or just random (because one has had to apply for the job).

Very true. This is why (yes... I keep bringing this up) I think we should worry more about the EW than his minions. If we find him out, we can guess his mind (yeah, masculine pronoun for convenience value). That is NOT saying that we should ignore people that are acting wolvish, I just think that our top priority should be EW.

Originally Posted by Armadillo-Alcarillo

Why on earth would I want this attention?! You people know my ancestors' methods of survival: laying low, keeping quiet. This doesn't fit with me killing Saucie. I'm not a werewolf, and if I were, I wouldn't be as dumb as killing Saucie.

That's a silly paragraph, right there. Sure, lorebooks may say that those in your bloodline once laid low, but that means nothing about you here and now. Situations change. This isn't just picking on Alca, this is just a note to and for everyone: it doesn't matter how people acted because sometimes folk act differently.

Originally Posted by Mormsy

Fourth, the phantom is innocent! I can sense it in him and there are others that I believe are innocent such as Eomer, Fea, Firefoot, Spawn, Roa and others that I can't think of currently. That was yesterday and today could change that.

You think I was innocent yesterday? Lorebooks claim your ancestors have never found mine innocent. It's just never happened! I'm so happy I could cry. Maybe I should marry you.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I agree with what Caranlondien had to say about voting for Loki. I feel especially bad about voting for him, as mine was the decisive one...and so figuratively pulled the stool from under him (or would have, had not the dashing Phantom done so for me *ducks a battledore* ).

All that said, I think it is possible that Saucey was killed simply because he has, according to my lorebook, a fairly good track record as being an astute, experienced village member. In other words, he's smart and experienced, which alone could be a major factor in why he was killed. Too dangerous to keep around. If this is a frame-up, it's a fairly subtle one...though I think that we didn't give the wolves and EW too much to go on yesterDay--day ones, I suspect, are hard all around. So he could have been a "oh, hey, who do we kill tonight..." "Oh! I know! Let's get Sauce!"

Edit: Cross-posted with Fea
And also to say that I probably won't be back on until an hour or less before voting time. It's unfortunate, but it's the way it's going to be until Thursday at the latest (assuming, of course, that I survive that long). So many apologies in advance, and I request that you all bear with me.

[Firefoot]

Saucepan will certainly be missed. And Loki... even if I really didn't like his attitude, I didn't think he was guilty. But what's done is done.

Mostly I just want to say now that I'm extremely tired, and most of my posting will come in the last few hours of the day (I may check in with some comments in eight hours or so, though). I can only agree with Morm that trying to keep up with all this is completely nuts. It's all kind of blurry and no way am I going to be able to come up with anything comprehensible right now.

[the phantom]

There's a lot I could say about why SPM was chosen, but I'm going to wait a bit to give my opinion. I'm guessing there is a very simple explanation, but it's possible the pick was extremely careful and strategic, in which case I want to watch for people doing certain things today, because there are certain things someone does if they make a kill for a certain reason.

Of course, the very fact that I've said I'm watching for unnamed suspicious activities might result in the Wolves chickening out of whatever they had planned (if they did indeed have a sort of plan for the day, given to them by the EW perhaps).

But I'll say more later in the day about that.

Originally Posted by me

Phantom=EW would lead to a resounding villager victory, I assure you.

Originally Posted by Diamond

I tend to agree with this, in the sense that tp is one of the ones more likely to be found out by the GW or Seer pretty quickly. Which is why I doubt that he would have been selected for this role.

I'm glad to see you believe that I'm not the EW.

Originally Posted by me

because Roa is a Wizard, of course.

Originally Posted by Diamond

I have to say I was thinking this, too.

Of course you were. Great minds...you know the rest.

Now, the only way to find out if we're right is to lynch Roa, but I don't feel like pushing for someone's death this early in the day. I haven't seen much from Roa, and I'd like to wait and hear what she has to say for herself.

Originally Posted by Fea

and while I lean a little toward Loki as that double-choice, it's not because of her, it's because that's the choice I'd have made

Or because that's the choice you did make, of course.

I don't have time to say more now. I promised Zali I'd take a walk with her down by the creek today. We should be back soon though.

Or maybe not.

*ducks battledore*

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Or because that's the choice you did make, of course.

Sure is.

PS: not really

[Gurthang]

Okay, Summary of Reactions After Receiving Votes (SRARV):

(format: Receiver - vote number for receiver {&} (vote giver) - post number of first post after vote (with cross-posting considered) - reaction in a word - reaction)

Nogrod - 1st (Nilp) - post #118 - Ignorant - Asks question about time of Day End.
Eomer - 1st (Lhuna) - post #77 - Displeased - Says that some of the early votes seem innappropriate, although does not mention his directly.
Thinlómien - 1st (Gurthang) - post #75 - Ignorant - Thin does not mention or acknowledge being voted for.
Loki - 1st (Diamond) & 2nd (Caran) - (no need to say anything)
Nilp - 1st (Eonwe) - (none yesterday)
Oddwen - 1st (Cailín) & 2nd (Glirdan) - (none yesterday)
Saucepan - 1st (JennyHallu) - (no reason to put anything here)
Kath - 1st (morm) - post #154 - Agreeable(?!) - says vote is "fair enough " and tells morm to use more reasoning for toDay.
Nogrod - 2nd (Naria) & 3rd (Eomer) & 4th (Thin) - post #162 - Unhappy - Direct quote: "Great!" (But also see post #163 - questions Thin and Eomer's reasoning)
Saucepan - 2nd (Alcarillo) - (see above)
Thin - 2nd (Kath) & 3rd (Celuien) & 4th (Firefoot) - (none yesterday)
Loki - 3rd (Fea) & 4th (Nogrod) & 5th (Lalaith) & 6th (Valier) & 7th (Kitanna) & 8th (Azaelia)- (no need to say anything)
Nogrod - 5th (Loki) - post #173 - Sarcastic - "How convenient..."
Alcarillo - 1st (SPM) - (none yesterday)
Lhuna - 1st (spawn) - (none yesterday)
Nogrod - 6th (Roa) - post #202 - Ignorant - He didn't say anything, probably because he was safe for the day.
Roa - 1st (phantom) - (none yesterday)

Well, there it is, but why do I feel like I just wasted my time...

About the only things I see from this are a couple of responses from Nogrod, but I don't have anything from my lorebooks to say about him.

But I want to ask Eomer something: Why did you think the earliest votes were inappropriate?


Other than that, I think that maybe we should look at what Loki thought. I know other people also are suspicious of Nogrod and Roa, maybe not Diamond so much, but I don't think it'd hurt. Although I might be pressed just to keep up; lots of Stable Handing to attend to.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Hold up, I didn't say this unless I did it under the influence of pain killers which I've not been on since Friday afternoon.

Sorry, I got my labels mixed up. Was doing a lot of toggling between screens when I wrote that up, and pasting quotes into Word one after another. Just asking for mistakes. The quote belonged to Spawn, post 58

I did think it was odd coming from you, what with the other things you'd said about the Wizards.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Second, I cannot for the life of me understand why you killed of Loki.

I cannot speak for everyone, but it seems to me most of them explained their votes pretty clearly anyway. As for myself, I have already explained my logic ad nauseum. Which must mean that my logic is a foreign language to you. Which is fair enough, I suppose. But, as you may be able to tell from my location line, I like to try understanding other people's logic even if it does not match my own and isn't something I really approve of.

I actually didn't find him offensive or rude and think that many of you who went after him should feel slightly ashamed at yourselfs for ganging up on him.

Well I don't. And I never will. I could go on to explain just why I did find him offensive and rude, complete with quotes and such, but this would be pointless because he's dead and he can't defend himself without breaking WW rules. The important thing is that I meant what I said when I said how I felt. You may not agree with me, but asking me to be ashamed of my opinions and conclusions because they didn't mesh with yours is a bit presumptuous.

Third, I plea to slow down!!! 200 posts! That's just ridiculous. There is no way a sane person can keep up with that. For the next day or two we should try and keep a small check on our post and not go overboard in size or quantity.

Well I both agree and don't agree with that. For instance, right now things are rather quiet and I wish they were a bit brisker, because this is when I have time and leisure -- a nice Sunday evening when I don't have any committments or restraints and I can devote my time and thoughts to posting. Yet, I know that while I am sleeping and then away at the "battledore shop" and other various tasks tomorrow is when people are going to start nattering away in earnest and I won't have any chance of catching up before Day-end, forcing me to vote early which I dislike doing.

However, this is my problem and I'm not going to ask people to cramp their style to please me. I'll deal. I hope you'll deal too. There are still close to 30 people around, you ought to have known from the start that this would be a very, very loud village.

Fourth, the phantom is innocent!

Well, finally we agree on something. He seems pretty clean. For now.

Fifth, GW please get your pick in quickly and everybody WAKE UP and check periodically to see if you are a new gifted. We cannot afford to loose dreams or protections.

I'm not sure I get this comment. Do you have some sort of knowledge of gifteds shirking their duty? Or would you just like us to think that? Hmmmmmmm?

there are others that I believe are innocent such as Eomer, Fea, Firefoot, Spawn, Roa and others that I can't think of currently. That was yesterday and today could change that.

Finally Celuien, Diamond and Glirdan are looking rather suspicious today though admittedly I am posting this after reading only a couple of today's posts. But all of their reactions seem markedly odd.

Sorry, I had to shuffle your comments for easier reply. Anway, I have thought that you (er, your ancestors) generally have good instincts for werecreatures, so I'll keep this in mind, but I'm not sure that in this case I can agree about your feelings on Spawn, Roa, Celuien, and Glirdan. I know it's pointless to say what I think about my categorization, as it pertains to me, but what it tells me about the other players isn't pointless, if you take my meaning. That is, I'm an innocent and I'm suspect, so I can't really trust your view of the others as much as I might otherwise.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by morm

Fifth, GW please get your pick in quickly and everybody WAKE UP and check periodically to see if you are a new gifted. We cannot afford to loose dreams or protections.

Originally Posted by Diamond

I'm not sure I get this comment. Do you have some sort of knowledge of gifteds shirking their duty? Or would you just like us to think that? Hmmmmmmm?

To answer your question, Diamond, in the narrative it says that the Seer didn't dream last night because of timing issues. Here's what it says-

Originally Posted by lmp

The good wizard gave serious thought to whom to scry. It took a few hours to come to a conclusion. The scry was made. The villager scried was ordinary. The good wizard gifted the villager to be the seer. The only problem was that by the time this occurred, it was mere minutes before dawn. The seer didn't dream.

Can you say "oops"?

[Diamond18]

I think one more post should cover things, unless I've forgotten anything.

Originally Posted by tp

Great minds...you know the rest.

Buttering me up, eh? You know how to court a girl's mother, dontcha? Puts me in mind of an old folk song of the Reindeer Folk, I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mother's Heart.

Now, the only way to find out if we're right is to lynch Roa, but I don't feel like pushing for someone's death this early in the day. I haven't seen much from Roa, and I'd like to wait and hear what she has to say for herself.

I hope she shows up earlier tomorrow than yesterDay, because I'll be voting early again. I too want to hear from her. Roa, Roa, wherefore art thou Roa? (And I know that's incorrect usage of "wherefore" but whatever.)

I don't have time to say more now. I promised Zali I'd take a walk with her down by the creek today. We should be back soon though.

Or maybe not.

*ducks battledore*

AHEM.

Just remember, while you're doing all this courting, it's highly unseemly considering the girl's grandfather just died and we're supposed to be in mourning.

And you can save your honeyed words about comforting because I know what that means.

Originally Posted by Fea

I've been wondering about Roa as "the friend" for a while now too. I have no final thoughts on her wizardliness, however, and while I lean a little toward Loki as that double-choice, it's not because of her, it's because that's the choice I'd have made.

Well, I do take into consideration that even there is the slightest bit of veracity in my theory, it still only applies to one Wizard. Either both were thinking logically or one was, either way there was some logic involved. It's only possible that friendship entered into the equation. And my main reason for believing this was because of the secrecy. For all I know Loki made the "secret friend" up in a diabolical scheme to watch us try and figure it out. (Note: I really, really don't think this is the case. But the internet is so strange a place I can imagine tons of these weird scenarios. What this says about the way my diabolical mind works, is up to you. )

(Totally useless comment, but I feel compelled to express my frustration with the 3 smiley limit. I'm always coming up against it in these longer posts. Especially when I quote people. Argh!)

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by tp

Can you say "oops"?

That must have been part of the edit, because I didn't see it when I read it. I thought he'd just edited in the Tally at the bottom and the italics. Well that explains it.

Good to know Morm hasn't suddenly become frighteningly clumsy, at any rate.

Edit: I suppose, also, that it could have been there from the start and I just didn't read close enough, and when I posed my question early on LMP was too polite to say, "Foolish wench, read more carefully before ye cast doubts upon my speeches, or I'll be forced to whip thee with thine own battledore! Fie!"

[Thinlómien]

Hullo all!

I think lynching SPM was an act of pure cowardice. The wolves/wolf decided that they didn't want him their enemy.

The more I think about the wizard-lynching plan, the more it makes sense.

I made a plan, which describes how we should treat people in my opinion. (See the attachment.)

The idea is that primary enemies (word "suspect") used in the chart should be voted first, if there are none, then secondary and then tertiary.

From now on I will be using feminine pronouns when speaking about an unknown person, fg. the EW.

Now I'm off to check if someone's left her candy unguarded...

edit: xed with phantom and D18

[mormegil]

I'm not sure if it's because she's one of the few talking currently or not but I am really starting to wonder about Diamond. She seems to want to respond to everything and yet there really isn't a lot of substance in each post, rather she has a lot of banter going on. Granted I generally enjoy reading her banter but all the same it is possible, yea probable, that it is a ploy or a decoy rather.

One thing important to remember that family is a good thing but don't fool yourself for one second that a wolf wouldn't turn on his/her family.

I guess I'm having a difficult time seeing why we are giving so much attention to the EW spotting. I really think that we are just over thinking things and telling the EW whom to or whom not to pick and thus negating any good we are doing by it. Perhaps if we find a wolf we can then speculate a bit but I think we are working in reverse here. Let's leave the seer and GW to find the EW, or the EW will make a slip at which point it will be easy to spot him/her but until then I suggest we focus on wolves and try and keep the population at a reasonable rate. I would hate to see it climb above 3 as we will be loosing 2 villagers a night and much higer than that 3 villagers a night.

[Cailín]

Ai no… Dear Saucy, dead. My condolences, Celuien and daughters, this is most grievous news indeed.

This does mean that I do not have to waste any breath defending the Saucepan Man, as I had planned. The kill, however, tells us little enough: it was not the result of careful planning and discussions -for our wolves cannot do this- and probably entirely a matter of chance. Saucy was a smart man. I can only conclude that at least one of the wolves is a traditional: they wished him out of the way despite the fact that he came under suspicion.

My mind jumps to Kath, for no particular reason.

As for the lynching today… it is going to be difficult. We have so little to go on: no voting patterns, no hidden alliances… one who was innocent yesterDay has now joined the army of the EW. Probably someone who 1) was not suspected much, 2) did not appear on both Eomer's and SpM's list, 3) was not likely to be scried by the GW. That still leaves numerous options.

Originally Posted by Mormegil

I guess I'm having a difficult time seeing why we are giving so much attention to the EW spotting. I really think that we are just over thinking things and telling the EW whom to or whom not to pick and thus negating any good we are doing by it.

I do agree - a little. However, it will be hard to spot the wolves all working individually: kinda like spotting the Werebear. The depressing thing is that it is right now almost everyone for himself, excepting the Good Wizard and his Gifted. I'd be happy if we would just manage to find any trace of any evil activity, wolf or wizard.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Sorry Morm, but this village is monstrous in size. We're probably going to reach about 40 pages before the end so chin up, sir!

O Saucepan Man, I mourn your death. Whatever will become of your beautiful family; and what of the essential public house! Truly, this is cause for sadness.

Now, onto business. My initial thoughts on the kill are in line with my dear mother Cailín, but I am interested (as always) to hear what theory my brother The Phantom has up his sleeve. I can't see how this kill is a masterpiece of wolvish strategy. In fact, I think this was a strange kill from the wolves' point of view. Saucepan Man was always unlikely to be given a gift, and he was always likely to be a lynching-candidate and a Seer dream. Yes, he adds so much intelligence to the discussion; but I wonder whether this was a snap-decision from the wolves, made without too much thought. Maybe I'm not seeing this aright, but were I a wolf I would certainly not have murdered Saucepan Man.

Strange.

While I thought that Loki was innocent, I don't think his innocence should give the village carte blanche to slay the Loki bandwagon. Strategy today requires careful deliberation, and we shouldn't just assume that the wolves had something to do with the death of the first innocent.

Diamond, you weren't on my list of wolves because I can see you getting lynched very early. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Gurthang, I did indeed think some of the early votes were inappropriate. The vote for Lommy, somewhat, because I think she's always prime lynching material and wouldn't be picked to be a wolf. But (and you're absolutely right!) especially Lhuna's vote for me. My survival chances are among the lowest of anyone in this village: there is no way the EW is picking me to be a wolf.

Maybe Lhuna senses evil lurking somewhere within me ( ) but she's mistaken. I have never attempted to learn sorcery and I never will. Not my cup of tea.