Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't know about your first two questions, but as for the last one- Werewolf is a team game, after all. In an ordinary village, even if only one wolf comes out alive at the end, all the wolves are considered the winners. I imagine it's the same here. The EW and the wolves are a team. If one player wins, the whole team wins. Likewise for the GW and the villagers.

[Lalaith]

Of course...it's just that LMP said that if both wizards die the game reverts to "classic" so I wondered if that discounts the wizards.

Oh and is it just me or is this EW acronym making you think of peeved Valley Girls?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Ok, I've got some rule-based questions ~

There are three wolves on the first night. It seems unlikely that two of the three will pick the same kill, with 27 players to choose from. So if there is no clear "winner" for a kill, what happens? Does the EW choose which one to go for?

First, the werewolves place their individual nominees before the EW & Evil team sub-mod. The sub-mod informs the werewolves of all nominees. The werewolves then pick from amongst the nominees until there is a consensus for the Night as to whom to kill. If there is not unanimity, the kill will be based on majority votes. If no majority has been established by the end of the Night, the EW will choose from among the nominees. The EW reserves the right to overrule all of the nominees since the EW has a better view to overall strategy than the werewolves, and must inform the E-team sub-mod when s/he does so, and the sob-mod will inform the werewolves and give a summary of the EW's reason(s) for the overrule, if the EW wants to give one.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

If wolves happen to pick the EW or a wolf, they will be told to pick another kill, is that right? In which case, presumably, ALL wolves will be told to pick another kill, not just the "bad choosers", or they will know that their choice was either the EW or another wolf...

Right.

Originally Posted by lal

If the wolves win, does the EW also win even if he is dead? If the villagers win, does the same happen for the GW? (Otherwise the wizards would never want to duel, I would suppose)

But of course they're considered winners if their side wins!

[Lalaith]

Thank you sir Mod.

*bows*

Oh, one other thing. Will it be possible for villagers and/or wolves to know how many wolves are operating at any one time?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Thank you sir Mod.

*bows*

Oh, one other thing. Will it be possible for villagers and/or wolves to know how many wolves are operating at any one time?

A most excellent question, my preciousssss..... and the answer is that it can only be determined by how many kills there are, and by a declaration of a win in either direction. At least, that's how I'd LIKE to run it. But I'm wondering if that would be too much stress on the villagers?..... hmmmmm..... thoughts, anyone?

[Roa_Aoife]

Well, the way it's set up now, only the GW and EW would know how many whatsits are running around. Naturally, if the GW declared, he/she/it could keep the villagers up to date. However, even he might be a little confused, depending on how things go. I think it might be an inevitability that the GW will come out, but it's not certain. So really, it's a strategy thing, and should be left as is.

Which gets me to wonder- the wizards will be notified when one of their own is removed from the team via scrying or cursing, correct?

[Lalaith]

I'm wondering whether, given the inevitable general anarchy, it might not be an idea to give some kind of 'state of play' summing up by the UberMod at the end of each Day/Night.
This could be number of wolves and/or number of gifted living, whatever the UberMod sees fit, but it might be a much-needed Voice of Reason.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Which gets me to wonder- the wizards will be notified when one of their own is removed from the team via scrying or cursing, correct?

Yes.

After further thought, I will do as has been done by every moderator that I'm aware of, and give End of Day and Night tallies, including number of werewolves, number of gifteds (not which ones), who died, and who is left.

[Lalaith]

Will you give the roles of who died, ie will we know it was a Seer, a Ranger, an ord etc?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Will you give the roles of who died, ie will we know it was a Seer, a Ranger, an ord etc?

Yes. The villagers need to have a healthy sense of paranoia, and knowing they've lost a seer, ranger, or what have you, can only aid and abet such paranoia.

[Thinlómien]

If a wizard is near to get lynched, does the another wizard have to challenge him/her?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If a wizard is near to get lynched, does the another wizard have to challenge him/her?

No.

The evil wizard will probably not want to challenge the good wizard until and unless the situation is in the evil wizard's advantage. The good wizard most likely wants to stop the evil wizard from creating more werewolves, and from his/her perspective (most likely) the sooner the better.

[Anguirel]

An update of upcoming mods:

Kath
Cailin
Gurthang
Sleepy

and

Anguirel, for I'm hoping to get my Heroes sequel in at last.

Featuring

-a whole new towerful of hapless werewolves!
-Thuringwethil, the charming and gorgeous messenger of Sauron!
-Carcharoth the Red Maw, bigger and badder than ever!
-The Lord of Werewolves, Gorthaur, the Abhorred, Wolf-Sauron!
-Three Gallant Heroes!
-Celegorm the Fair!
-A Redeemable Werewolf!
-And not that much more!

[JennyHallu]

Hey, Ang...don't forget you have a redeemed werewolf already!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Featuring

-a whole new towerful of hapless werewolves!
-Thuringwethil, the charming and gorgeous messenger of Sauron!
-Carcharoth the Red Maw, bigger and badder than ever!
-The Lord of Werewolves, Gorthaur, the Abhorred, Wolf-Sauron!
-Three Gallant Heroes!
-Celegorm the Fair!
-A Redeemable Werewolf!
-And not that much more!

Whatever happened to Carcharoth being the lord of the new Werewolf village? If Sauron returns... then what are the odds that I get to reprise my role? And what of the return of Lady Spawnowen that you promised? I'm terribly disappointed...

[Anguirel]

The Redeemable Wolf is redeemable because it's inhabited by the Lady Spawnowen's tormented spirit.

And this time Sauron is in Wolf-Form and has different abilities...requiring a different style of play, perhaps. All will be revealed...

[Thinlómien]

I warn you already at this phase, when the roles haven't been given yet: if I'm not flip-flopping or flood-posting all the time in this game (I don't promise anything, though), it is not a reason to lynch me for being weird. I just thought I should concentrate more on ww (= think more about things). I've been a bit careless in the past. But of course time will show if I really can be more resonable... And yes, Roa, the floor to flood is yours... Maybe.

[Roa_Aoife]

Aw, and I was looking forward to the competition. Eru knows, I've yet to best Nogrod in a post count. (So help me, one day I will!)

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Aw, and I was looking forward to the competition. Eru knows, I've yet to best Nogrod in a post count. (So help me, one day I will!)

That is rather ambitious. I've never seen somebody post so much. He makes my post count look small by comparison. Normally I'm one of the more vocal one too.

LMP do how many players are we at currently?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

An update of upcoming mods

I wouldn't mind modding another game when the opportunity arises.

Originally Posted by lmp

Yes. The villagers need to have a healthy sense of paranoia, and knowing they've lost a seer, ranger, or what have you, can only aid and abet such paranoia.

My experience in Diamond's recently-finished game suggests to me that the paranoia and confusion (on both sides) may deliciously be heightened by not knowing the roles of those killed, how many Gifteds there are, how many Wolves there are etc. And it adds greatly to the opportunity (again, on both sides) to cause mischief for one's opponents, which may suit this game well. A point to consider, anyway.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

My experience in Diamond's recently-finished game suggests to me that the paranoia and confusion (on both sides) may deliciously be heightened by not knowing the roles of those killed, how many Gifteds there are, how many Wolves there are etc. And it adds greatly to the opportunity (again, on both sides) to cause mischief for one's opponents, which may suit this game well. A point to consider, anyway.

I agree, to a degree...

In a basic kind of a game, it seems to work. And I'm just wondering, whether Lommy and I should really think of sticking into some of this stuff by Diamond in our game, which will be quite basic anyhow (let's see what we come up with? ).

But a question to Lmp as well! As your games is built in one sense on families, should we have something like "families sticking together" -sort of stuff from our own initiative (which I would happily like to PM to my family-members before the roles are given - and the game starts!), or is there some additional & institutional things you have in your sleeve? F.ex. family-members can't vote for another in day1, 2, 3,...?, or something?

It would be nice to try to play the day1 once in a lifetime with serious discussion, but still hanging on to the roles -as this family-based idea could allow it?

[mormegil]

I have to say that I loved not knowing roles and hated it at the same time. I think it added a breath of fresh air and some new excitement to WW for me. I would love to see it around much more. Though I'm not sure about it during LMP's game. It may be nice to know but it may be more fun to not. What do others think?

[Celuien]

The game is so different and complex already that while not knowing is interesting, I'm nervous about adding another level of confusion to it.

Though since there's no goose-cobbler, there's less to worry about with players on the village side betraying the other villagers to the wolves.

I would prefer to have the tallies for number of wolves and gifteds because those numbers are going to shift every night, and if they don't, knowing that they didn't is sort of important for everyone to know, including any successful gifteds.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I have to say that I loved not knowing roles and hated it at the same time. I think it added a breath of fresh air and some new excitement to WW for me. I would love to see it around much more. Though I'm not sure about it during LMP's game. It may be nice to know but it may be more fun to not. What do others think?

Even I do think, that you were not addressing me in questioning "the others" (as I kind of pointed my stance in my last post already), but I would just like to add to the weight of numbers to Morm's point: in smaller or otherwise traditional games (one which me and Lommy are going to put up in the WWJ-thread quite soon), these new ideas are truly welcome. In games that anyway pose a new challenge to everyone (lmp's game), they would be less than wanted, as you would have to cope with so many new things already.

Agreeing with you Morm, I guess?

EDIT: X-posted with Celuien, and agreeing with her on everything!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I would prefer to have the tallies for number of wolves and gifteds because those numbers are going to shift every night, and if they don't, knowing that they didn't is sort of important for everyone to know, including any successful gifteds.

A fair point, as is that made by Morm and Noggy.

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

I suppose that's fair enough. We'd know about the occurrence of any shift in alliances without being given extra information about which gifteds were around.

Of course, there's still the concern of piling too many changes on at once. I defer to our esteemed Smi... I mean, Elempi, for the decision.

[littlemanpoet]

I need 2 to 4 more players before we'll get started. And more volunteers for a wizard role will be accepted. (Please PM me or you won't be considered.)

Originally Posted by mormegil

LMP do how many players are we at currently?

26 for sure with 2 possibles.

Gurthang & Felagund, are you still dithering or can you commit?

With those two added, I just need 2 more. I do want 30.

Originally Posted by SPM

My experience in Diamond's recently-finished game suggests to me that the paranoia and confusion (on both sides) may deliciously be heightened by not knowing the roles of those killed, how many Gifteds there are, how many Wolves there are etc. And it adds greatly to the opportunity (again, on both sides) to cause mischief for one's opponents, which may suit this game well. A point to consider, anyway.

So I noticed. I think the tallies are needed for the way this game should work. In a more basically structured game I can see doing without them.

Originally Posted by SPM

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

Hmmmm.... Let's put this one to a vote.

Rules:

Dueling Wizards Werewolf Rules

There are two wizards, and no other gifted at the beginning of the game, which must have a minimum of 20 players, and an arbitrary maximum (first time) of 30. The two wizard roles are assigned from a list of volunteers who are willing to play the roles.

The two wizards don't know who each other are. One is evil, one is good. Neither wizard can be killed, except by each other.

Evil Wizard: each Night the evil wizard picks a villager to curse as a werewolf. The new werewolf is immediately informed and the mod requests a kill choice, which the werewolf provides by the end of the 24 hours. On the first Night of the game, the Evil Wizard chooses three werewolves; thereafter s/he chooses one per Night.

The werewolves do not know each other's identity because while they are werewolves at Night, they cannot detect the identities underlying the curses. When there are multiple werewolves, and they make differing kill choices, the person with the most werewolf "votes" is killed. If there is a tie, the sub-mod for the evil wizard PMs back to each werewolf about the others' choices, and serves as a go-between until the werewolves have come to a majority choice.

Note: Werewolves do not PM each other and therefore cannot debate with each other; thus, they are not going to find out each others' identities. If in some odd circumstance, a werewolf gets the most votes for the werewolf kill, the evil wizard has the right to overrule the choice, and the werewolves are told to make a different pick. If in some even odder circumstance, the werewolves choose the evil wizard as their kill, the evil wizard of course has the right to overrule their choice. In a 20 or more player game, if there are 4 to 6 werewolves, there are 2 kills per Night; if there are 7 or more werewolves, there are 3 kills per Night.

If the evil wizard chooses a gifted villager to curse, the gifted villager loses the gift but does not turn into a werewolf ... this time. The good wizard is informed of the loss of the gifting.

If the evil wizard picks the good wizard at Night, he is informed that he has discovered the good wizard, and has the option from then on to call out the good wizard to battle during any Day.

The evil wizard may choose to inform one or more werewolves who one or more other werewolves are; but this is a risky option and should be used with great care, considering the possible consequences.

The evil wizard is allowed to lie to his were-creatures.

Good Wizard: each Night the good wizard picks a villager to scry.

1. If the good wizard scries the evil wizard, the good wizard is informed of that, and can call out the evil wizard to battle during any Day, which results in the death of both wizards.

2. If the good wizard scries a werewolf, the werewolf is turned back into an innocent by the good wizard's power.

3. If the good wizard finds an innocent, the good wizard has the option of turning that innocent into a gifted, the choices being seer, ranger, and hunter. If a gifted is de-gifted by the evil wizard's curse, the good wizard may assign that gift to another. If a gifted is killed, the gift may be assigned to another innocent. The new assignment is made via the nightly scry.

NOTE: There may only be one seer at a time, one ranger at a time, and one hunter at a time.

The good wizard may choose to inform one or more gifteds who one or more of the gifteds are.

The gifteds know who the good wizard is; the good wizard may PM the gifteds during the Day, and the gifteds may PM the good wizard during the Day. They do not know who each other is unless the good wizard tells them. (why wouldn't the good wizard tell the gifteds who each other is?)

The good wizard is allowed to mis-inform and/or withhold information from his gifteds.

The evil wizard and werewolves win when the werewolves equal or exceed the number of innocents. The villagers and good wizard win when there is no evil wizard left, and no werewolves left.

There are no shirriffs, no werebears, and no cobblers.

If the good wizard and the evil wizard choose the same previously innocent villager on the same Night, the two wizards discover each other's identity by means of the contest. Since the evil wizard still wants a werewolf, the good wizard must choose whether to let the villager die as a casualty of the wrenching experience of the contest, or let the villager survive and become a werewolf..

Just to be perfectly clear: a wizard battle always results in the death of both wizards, and may only happen during the Day.

There is a vote for lynching every Day. If there is a tie vote, then the first player to have received that many votes, is lynched. If a wizard is voted to be lynched, he will be lynched but cannot die that way, and is thus forced to declare himself, and the opposing wizard can call him/her out for a wizard battle the following Day. A wizard cannot be killed by lynching; instead, nobody dies that Day.

If the evil wizard dies, the werewolves are informed of each other's identity, and revert from there on to traditional werewolf group dynamics.

Each Day and Night will be 24 hours; if such a time frame proves somehow unworkable, it may be changed (with notice of course!) during the game.

Order of Night Activities:
1. Evil wizard picks whom to curse.
2. Good wizard pickes whom to scry.
3. Affected players are informed of results of #1 & #2 (if both wizards pick same villager, this phase gets longer but is completed before the next phase begins).
4. Ranger picks whom to save.
5. Seer picks whom to dream.
6. Hunter picks whom to hunt.
7. Werewolves pick whom to kill.
Note: Steps 4 - 7 can happen simultaneously, but will be recorded by the moderator in the order as listed so as to keep the game straight.

Miscellaneous Rulings:
*There are no multiple lynchings.
*A killed or lynched persons previous roles will not be revealed until the game is over.
*Regarding player etiquette: Accusations and suspicions are what the game of werewolf is all about, and that's why we play. This sometimes includes insults which must be considered as 'all in fun' (using appropriate 'smilies' helps to show that it's all in fun); however, there are limits that must not be crossed: if your gameplaying insults are beyond the pale (you're going to have to accept the moderator's judgment on this), you will be considered to have gone overboard. Therefore, anyone going overboard will get a PM from the moderator with a warning to use better etiquette. Any player that "goes overboard" a second time, will be summarily removed from the game with no death narrative. As one of the Wise once said: "It's only a game - don't be offended, but it's only a game - don't be offensive."

Sign up

# player ~ relationship ~ occupation

1 Diamond ~ gammer married to Nogrod & mother of eligible young maidens Lhunardawen, Azaelia, & Firefoot ~ Battledore Maker with strong forearms from battledore swinging

2 Celuien ~ wife of The Saucepan Man ~ Healer and Cupper

3 Caranlondien ~ eligible young maiden, eldest daughter of Sleepy Ranger & Roa Aoife (big sister of Thin & Glir) ~ Sled-Team Driver

4 Roa Aoife ~ wife of Sleepy Ranger, and mother of Thinlomien ~ weaver

5 Nogrod ~ gaffer married to Diamond and father to eligible young maidens Lhunardawen, Azaelia, & Firefoot ~ retired jester who has many permanent bruises from battledores

6 Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant ~ eligible young maiden (or wife of Nilp if he plays) ~ Baker

7 Kath ~ eligible young maiden ~ minstrel

8 Lommy~ child of Sleepy Ranger and Roa Aoife, younger sister of Glirdan and Caranlondien ~ little girl who steals other children's candy

9 Lhunardawen ~ wife of Eonwe (no children) & eldest daughter of Nogrod & Diamond ~ jeweler

10 Glirdan ~ child of Sleepy Ranger and Roa Aoife, older brother of Thinlomien, younger brother of Caranlondien ~ with giant crush on Kath (occupation aplenty!)

11 Valier ~ not so eligible young maiden ~ gardener

12 Sleepy Ranger ~ married to Roa Aoife, father of Thinlomien ~ Wanderer from the days of old, now settled in the village

13 Kitanna ~ ~

14 Firefoot ~ tomboyish young maiden (engaged to stuffy, boring, rich jerk) & daughter of Nogrod and Diamond; younger sister of Azaelia ~ artist

15 Alcarillo ~ gaffer married to Cailín ~ old retired sea captain

16 Cailín ~ gammer married to Alcarillo ~ match maker

17 Oddwen ~ orphan child, in the care of Lalaith ~ aviary keeper (filthy, insane street urchin who steals chickens & other fowl and keeps them locked up in boxes)

18 mormegil ~ widower ~ retired mariner and currently mayor overseeing honorary functions

19 Feanor ~ husband lost at sea, widowed and eligible (with eyes for the smith?) ~ suspicious and somewhat creepy shepherdess with a love of alliteration

20 Azaelia of Willowbottom ~ eligible young maiden & daughter to Diamond and Nogrod [open to whims of the mod] ~ (apprentice?) seamstress

21 the phantom ~ single semi-eligible young man ~ loud, unpredictable, adventurer

22 Naria ~ young eligible maiden (willing to change status) ~ servant who empties and cleans chamber pots

23 Jenny Hallu ~ ~

24 The Saucepan Man ~ husband of Celuien ~ barkeep

25 Lalaith ~ frivolous aunt and guardian of Oddwen ~

26 Eonwe ~ husband of Lhunardawen & son in law of Nogrod & Diamond ~

27 Eomer of the Rohirrim ~ ~

Gurthang? ~ ~ stable-hand (if he plays)

Nilpaurion Felagund? ~ hubby of Dancing Spawn if he plays

[Diamond18]

I'm not sure what's more complicated, the rules or the relationships. But boy am I looking forward to this, it's going to be one heckuva ride....

Oh where oh where are you, our 2 to 4 more players?

[Lalaith]

I would like to cast a vote for tallies with roles at time of death revealed, pretty please, Sir Elempi. This game is going to be anarchic enough as it is....I don't think I could cope if there wasn't some solid info once a day....*whimper*

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I would like to cast a vote for tallies with roles at time of death revealed, pretty please, Sir Elempi. This game is going to be anarchic enough as it is....I don't think I could cope if there wasn't some solid info once a day....*whimper*

I do agree with Lalaith in here. There will be so much that is new - not to mention these family-affairs, possibly making the dAY1 at last somewhat consistent?

And anyhow: those gifts do go around all the time, so even some security would mean a lot, for all of our peace of mind.

[the phantom]

I'm with Lalaith. You don't have to tell us when the deceased became whatever he was, or if he used to be something else, but you should at least tell us what he was at time of death.

[littlemanpoet]

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

(you may change your votes of course)

In favor: 2

SPM
Celuien

Not in favor: 3

Lalaith
Nogrod
the phantom

By the way, I'll be PMing a few players (mostly male for the sake of evenness of numbers) to try and get these recruits. If you have any ideas who else can join us, PM me.

EDIT: We have a 27th player: Eomer of the Rohirrim Welcome to Dueling Wizards, Eomer!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Thank you, kind sir.

And I look forward to gaming with all of you. Now, to assimilate all this new info. What a perfect way to spend a few hours: reading about Werewolf!

[JennyHallu]

Can I be Celuien's sister and an unmarried maiden aunt type? If Celuien is ok with that?

[Diamond18]

I'm with Lal, tp, and Nog. Hiding the roles of the dead is a good way to spice up a more traditional game, but this one has already got spice in spades.

[Eonwe]

Originally Posted by LMP

26 Eonwe ~ husband of Lhunardawen ~

Wha!?! I never agreed to this! We definitely left that one in the air. You can't just go marrying people behind their backs!

But now that you mention it, it doesn't sound like too bad of an arrangment, if you can get past the arranged part...

Originally Posted by the phanotm

I'm with Lalaith. You don't have to tell us when the deceased became whatever he was, or if he used to be something else, but you should at least tell us what he was at time of death.

I guess I'm with Lalaith too. I would be nice to know if you're making some progress.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Can I be Celuien's sister and an unmarried maiden aunt type? If Celuien is ok with that?

Fine with me.

[Roa_Aoife]

I'm with SPM and Celuien. The whole thing goes back to what new strategies are up- the GW will know who was what, so it's up to him/her whether or not to reveal it. A tally is just enough info to keep us sane, while being ambiguous enough to throw up some questions.

Speaking of those two- there are some young eligible maidens in need of parents. Willing to adopt?

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Speaking of those two- there are some young eligible maidens in need of parents. Willing to adopt?

I'm willing to bring some children and young eligible maidens into the house. What do you say, SPM?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by lmp & SPM

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

If I'm understanding this correctly, the only difference between what I'm asking for (revealing roles at time of death) and what you are suggesting is that when a gifted is killed we won't know the role.

If a wolf is killed, you don't have to tell us "So-and-so was a wolf" because the tally will suddenly have one less wolf. And there are no multiple lynchings, so only one can die at a time during the day. At night, no wolves will be killed by wolves- the EW would see to that. And Wizards- well, they can't die without us knowing.

The only time it will make a difference is when the Seer, Ranger, or Hunter dies, instead of lmp telling us "you lost your Seer", he will simply say Gifteds=2 in the tally.

(the exception is when the Hunter is killed and he/she kills a wolf- in that case we won't know who is who and that is the primary source of confusion I can see resulting from a tally only system, but a Hunter killing a wolf doesn't happen every day of course)

All in all, I suppose a tally only system would not pose a huge concern during the Wizard phase, because the GW will just reassign that role with the nightly scry, and before the GW dies, he/she can tell the village which gifted was lost and when, if he/she feels like that information is somehow useful.

I suppose I really don't care during the Wizard phase. But, I certainly want roles revealed upon death as usual once we enter the standard Werewolf phase.

Eomer- nice to have you along for the ride!