Survivor: The Second Age

[Elu Ancalime]

Actually, if one wanted to push the envelope, Im suprised a poke at Movie Elrond's "girly crown" hasnt been reasoning yet.
________
Weed

[lord of dor-lomin]

Um, just to let you know, if we continue on this course and kill Elrond, Sauron, and the other "worthy" contestants, and keep the minor characters alive, this game is going to suddenly get really really boring towards the end.

Seriously. Think about it.

The major characters have a lot of stuff written about them, thus endless possibilites for finding both real and humorous reasons to attack and defend them. If we cut the great down until we're left with minor characters, what kind of lame game would that be?

There's only so much you can say about minor characters. We're going to find ourselves in the position of trying to come up with arguments derived from just a few lines of text. That means the arguments won't be very long, and there won't be as many variations.

Sauron and Elrond, on the other hand- you can practically write a book either for or against them.

Don't we want to save the best for last?

Ah, but it's probably too late to save them anyway. The foolish masses have already spoken.

[Diamond18]

Fimbrethil was pretty minor, and we found plenty to yammer about as far as she was concerned.

As long as we use our imagination, the game will never be boring.

Those who cannot see that just lack the necessary skill.

But seriously, Lord, don't you ever get tired of agreeing with Phantom?

[Formendacil]

The Fourteenth day of voting was a contest, primarily, between Elrond and Sauron, but in the end, there was no contest. The voting fell as follows:

Círdan: I
Narvi: I
Celeborn: I

Sauron: II

Elrond: IIIII IIII

Now, participants will note that, toDay, I have not required Tolkien rationale- due to the late hour on which this day is ending for me. However, I'm quite proud of you all, since only Glirdy (naughty exmod!) and Eonwe's vote didn't have a legitimate rationale- and the result would have been the same anyway.

There shall probably not be a vote analysis after tomorrow's vote either, since I work until about this same time, but I plan to have proper analyses on the days following.

Also, to those saying that only Second Age material is admissible: wrong.

I'll accept anything Tolkien, no matter what the Age. The Second Age was just criteria for me picking the candidates. You can vote them off for anything Tolkien.

Participants in all three Survivors, Sauron and Elrond's tussle for surival ended in a Sauronian win.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Line of Lúthien:
Amandil
Anárion
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the "Endorians":
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían
Narvi
Fangorn

Tribe of the Rest:

Sauron
The Witch-king
Celebrimbor
Ohtar
Galadriel

Day 15 begins now. Vote away!

[Formendacil]

Erm...

In quoting yesterday's day-ending post for the one just created, I inadvertanly edited it instead. I'll go back and fix it as best I can, but be warned that it may be rather inaccurate.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

++Sauron, who had the gall to call himself 'Lord of the Rings'

First Age: Given control of an island, lost it to an elf and her lover. Ran away.

Second Age: Put on disguise (ineffective, since he was shunned by some), sold patent rights to tacky rings in an effort to control the minds of the dominant race. Must be the most pathetic world-domination scheme in the history of evil (no offence to Tolkien for writing it that way.)

Oh, and you want a secret? He stole the whole ring idea from my father. (++Nilpaurion Felagund (who is not a legitimate candidate))

Yeah, what he says.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

+ + Fangorn

Rumor has it he's really Old Man Willow in
disguise, cleverly biding his time to ingratiate
himself with hobbits before leading them all
in a Pied Piper march to the Old Forest.

[Boromir88]

I say we kick someone out of the Endorians, that has to be the most boring, unattractive, unsuspenseful group of people I ever see. I mean if it wasn't for the "Tribe of the Rest" people would be falling a sleep just by listening to Fangorn talk.

[The Saucepan Man]

Justice at last!

Well, I consider myself bound to honour my pledge to Boromir88 and so, today, I must vote for Elros (even though he himself seems inclined not to do so). Since, however, Boro did not vote in the decisive events of yesterday, I consider myself bound to do so for one day only.

+ + ELROS TAR-MINYATUR

Now to think of some reasons …

Erm, his title always makes me think of him as a Minotaur. And Minotaurs are bad things, right?

Not good enough?

OK, his name is translated either as “Elf of the Spray” or “Star-Foam”. The first of these is a misrepresentation, as he was no Elf, and it is also rather effeminate. The second sounds like Styrofoam, which is an artificial substance, suggesting that he might have been somewhat false in his dealings.

Still not good enough?

OK, let’s look at his life. As one of the sons of Earendil and Elwing, he was given the choice between Elvish immortality and Mannish immortality. I do not criticise his choice, as he showed a greater degree of humility than his brother in choosing mortality over immortality. However, why was he even given a choice? What had he ever done to deserve it? Prior to this, all we really know about him is that he managed (along with his twin bother, now thankfully departed) to get himself kidnapped by the sons of Feanor and ended up playing around in a waterfall. Big deal. And, if it was simply in consequence of the deeds of his parents, well that smacks of nepotism to me.

And then, having chosen mortality, he is given exceptional longevity and his own private island to rule. Again, what did he ever do to deserve such honours?

And, as ruler of Numenor, did he ever achieve anything worthwhile? Not that I am aware of. OK, so he is at the head of a long line of great Kings. But anyone in his position could have achieved that. I’m looking for a more solid performance, but just not seeing anything.

So there we have it. Elros had it all handed to him on a silver platter in return for doing absolutely nothing. In light of a similarly poor performance on the show to date, he is not a deserving winner and should be evicted forthwith.

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

... before leading them all in a Pied Piper march to the Old Forest.

You mean that Treebeard is the phantom ...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin
... before leading them all in a Pied Piper march to the Old Forest.

You mean that Treebeard is the phantom ...

That was supposed to be a secret!
After all, the phantom already knows what
evil lurks in the hearts of men!

[Anguirel]

Aha! Lookee at the hypocrite!

The so-called champion of minor characters persecutes them in the person of Elros, continuing to let Sauron run riot! What lack of imagination!

There is now absolutely no reason why Sauron should remain. The tide is clearly turning against those perceived as claiming the "right to win".

These world-domination jags of his have never been funny, and his transvestitism as pictured here



is just disturbing, and frightening away both male and female audiences. We've had enough of this "Annatar" thing. It's getting depressing and really quite sad.

As for his ludicrous Gothic fashions...



Not much better, are they? Particularly as whatever armour he wears, he still gets pasted in battle by any half-decent Elf or Man who takes him on.

As for this...



...just embarrassing, isn't it? Stop trying to be evil-looking, you old failure. We know you've just got cataracts.

++SAURON

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

The so-called champion of minor characters persecutes them in the person of Elros, continuing to let Sauron run riot!

First off, I am honouring a pledge, albeit most likely for one day only. You, at least, surely understand the importance of honour.

Secondly, I would most certainly not describe Elros, despite his failure to achieve by his own efforts anything worthwhile, as a minor character. He is one of the central figures of the Second Age, and so fair game as far as I am concerned.

For what it's worth, I agree that Sauron should go too. He, like Elrond, is beginning to look like a bit of a sad has-been in these shows. If you would but exercise a little patience, and show some imagination yourself by considering an alternative candidate of your own for once, I will be happy to join you in your endeavour.

I suspect, however, that you will find some sympathetic ears elsewhere today.

[Lalaith]

I've been pondering who to vote for today - it was this that swung it for me:

The tide is clearly turning against those perceived as claiming the "right to win".

I do hope so.

In the Second Age, Sauron turned many to his will: most of Numenor, the Nazgul, the Voice of Sauron, whoever he once was, the Dead Men (before they were dead). Those most vunerable to his lure were those who were attracted by the glamour of power, who could be persuaded that "might was right".
Now he's doing it to the viewers as well. You can see his influence right here in this thread. It's like that bit in "The Ring" (the Japanese horror flick, I mean, not Wagner or Tolkien) when the girl crawls out of the telly to get you. *shudder*
It's getting creepy and it must stop.
++SAURON

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Lalaith is quite convincing. The
Faithful should resist the allure of Sauron.

- - Treebeard
+ + Sauron

[WaynetheGoblin]

++SAURUN
i think that i voted for him at the beggining.

[Diamond18]

Wayne, I think you might want to edit your post to add some more Tolkien based reasoning, or your vote most likely won't count at the end of the day. And believe me, there's nothing sadder that not counting fer nuthin' at the end of the day.

I said I would vote for Sauron and I'm a gonna:

+ + Sauron

First of all, he's a bad guy. Do we honestly need more reason than that? Kill the bad guys, kill the bad guys!

Secondly, as there as there are only two bad guys left, let's compare them.

The Witch-King -- strikes fear in the hearts of grown men and maketh them soileth themselves.

Sauron -- Gives pretty gifts and whispers anti-Valiar rubbish into people's ears, but otherwise leaves everything cool and scary to his lackeys. Oh get off your bum, you lousy pathetic excuse for a Dark Lord!

Should someone who was bested by a trio of halflings really win Survivor? I think not. Should someone who fell for the age old trick of tapping the opposite shoulder (i.e. Aragon and co. at the Black Gate) really win Survivor? Please. Made ya look!

[Celuien]

What I said before here and here still goes.

++SAURON

[the phantom]

I was going to vote for someone else, but I have been swayed by Sauce's argument. Elros had everything you could ever want- long life, riches, and his own island kingdom, but what did he do to deserve it? I think we should cast out the undeserving Elros.
+ + Elros

The tide is clearly turning against those perceived as claiming the "right to win".

Well, that just shows how dumb people are.

I would understand turning against people who claim some sort of unearned right, but that's not what we are talking about. We're talking about characters who, through their choices and deeds, have earned the right to call themselves Survivor Champion.

We should give credit where credit is due, and reward those who have put forth the effort to place themselves among the great and powerful.

Should someone who was bested by a trio of halflings really win Survivor? I think not.

Sauron was most certainly not bested by a trio of halflings. He was defeated by divine intervention- he was bested by Eru. Sauron had grown so powerful and his Ring plot was so perfect (no one could willfully destroy it) that God himself had to step in on several occasions to ensure his defeat. If that's not greatness I don't know what is.

[Boromir88]

Well, I consider myself bound to honour my pledge to Boromir88 and so, today, I must vote for Elros (even though he himself seems inclined not to do so). Since, however, Boro did not vote in the decisive events of yesterday, I consider myself bound to do so for one day only.~Sauce

How noble of you Mr. Sauce. I regret not being able to make it to vote in time, but I respect your decision to be only bound to vote once.

So I will also vote for

++Elros

Because of the reasons I listed a couple days ago:

Elros is the guy everyone should be going after. He shied away from his Elven-heritage and formed the cursed kingdom of Numenor. He chose mortality because he couldn't face/handle living forever like his brother and his other kindred. He's the coward, not Cirdan.

Though you are making sense with Elrond I will say. Perhaps Earendil's entire family just needs wiped out. I mean let's think about it:

Elrond, along with Gandalf was the main planner for The Fellowship and the destruction of the Ring. But other than that what does he do? Also, that's in the 3rd age. He's even so lazy he sends his sons to give messages, because he doesn't want to leave.

Arwen, though beautiful, just a snobby little princess that is only the symbol of authority. She's like the Queen of England, rich, a nice title, but absolute no authority at all.

Elladan and Elrohir are just Aragorn wannabees, tagging along with the other Dunedain.

Now I know the last 3 aren't contestants, but it just shows the worthlessness of Earendil's descendants. The whole line needs to be wiped out (meaning Elros and Elrond).

Elros the founder of the greedy got to have more Kingdom of Men shouldn't be on the island anymore.

[Eonwe]

Originally Posted by The Phantamonious One

Elros had everything you could ever want- long life, riches, and his own island kingdom, but what did he do to deserve it? I think we should cast out the undeserving Elros.

Really, Phantom, I would expect better reasoning from you. What did he do not to deserve it? The rain falls on both the just and the unjust, and Elros was far from unjust. Long life he gets from his geniology. Can you help that, or even influence it one way or another? Riches? He was given exceptional favore from the Valar. What you are doing is like trying to deny people their birthday presents just because "they don't deserve them!"

Boromir, you too?

Shirked his half-elven heritage, you say? No, my good friend, he was simpely embracing his full manish side, since he couldn't be both. Not to mention, according to the Valar themselves, he made the better choice (as in "even the Valar shall grow weary and envy the Gift of Men.)

That's like you saying, "Here, you can have chocolate or vinilla. Ohhhh, you chose vinilla you coward!" No, I just happen to like choclate better, and didn't you say I could choose anyway?!

Ha! Your scandolous and inflamatory comments on Earendil's descendents I will leave unanswered, for the simple reason they have no merit, and therefore deserve no answer.

[Boromir88]

Shirked his half-elven heritage, you say?

And like I said he's a coward. He can't handle living forever, he has to choose mortality because he can't take the torture of living on forever. If Elrond deserves any credit he deserves at least accepting his Elvishness and living forever.

And look who Elros founded? He didn't want to live forever, but he founded a Kingdom that wasn't happy with living 5 times the amount of other men and they had to try to achieve more lifetime.

[Eonwe]

Originally Posted by B88

he has to choose mortality because he can't take the torture of living on forever.

Gotha. So which would you like today, Mr 88: the stretching machine, the hand crushing mallet, or the waterbed? The waterbed?! Ha! You coward, your not worthy of living!!!!

Elros didn't found a kingdom filled with sissy fountain of youth seekers. That came a few thousand years after his death. I'm sure you can see how he is not at fault for this, considering dead people can't influence the living.

[Firefoot]

++Sauron

Someone commented that he was seeming rather worn out, and I thoroughly agree. What was that quote again...? "Winners never quit, and quitters never win, but only idiots never win and never quit," or something like that?

Now for some more Tolkien based reasoning... he doesn't really seem to deserve to be in power, except that he is powerful. He starts it off all wrong in the First Age, getting beat out of "his own" fortress by Luthien and Huan. Eventually Morgoth goes away, and Sauron who was only the second "best" baddie in the first place now promotes himself. He does his ring trick which only sort of works - how do you let the other most powerful rings escape your grasp anyway? Seriously, his armies throughout the Second and Third Age should have been plenty to wipe out the whole world, but he can't do it. He's always the one letting his troops down. Last Alliance, he lets himself get knocked out by Isildur waving around daddy's sword; WotR, he's not even smart enough to watch his own borders. He may be powerful, but he doesn't make that great a use of that power. Let's try accompanying it with some intelligence next time, shall we?

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by She of the fiery feet

He may be powerful, but he doesn't make that great a use of that power. Let's try accompanying it with some intelligence next time, shall we?

Exactly!

Originally Posted by He of the glowing eyes

Sauron was most certainly not bested by a trio of halflings. He was defeated by divine intervention- he was bested by Eru. Sauron had grown so powerful and his Ring plot was so perfect (no one could willfully destroy it) that God himself had to step in on several occasions to ensure his defeat. If that's not greatness I don't know what is.

Actually, that's a matter of opinion. One can point to many times when Sauron could have got his ring back but didn't, simply because he was too unimaginative to think that anyone would try to sneak in his back door and melt his ring in Mount Doom. Smacks of stupidity. If he'd never turned his eye away from Mt. Doom, they would never even have gotten to the point where Gollum bites of Frodo's finger and acidentally falls in the lava. And you can't really say that Gollum tripped over the finger of Eru, it could just be one of those lovely lucky coincedences authors like to use. Regardless, though, the characters of LotR had plenty to do with besting Sauron, plenty, and you won't convince me that they had noting at all to do with it and Eru just did everything. Piffles! What a pointless story it would be, then. Why didn't Eru just zap Sauron with lightening if he cared so much?

However, all of this is rather beside the point, I'll vote Sauron off for the same reasons I'd vote Hitler off -- sure, they both were pretty good at being depraved, and "almost succeeded" in the end -- but I am under no compulsion to respect them for it. And I certainly have no desire to reward them for it.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Sauron was most certainly not bested by a trio of halflings. He was defeated by divine intervention- he was bested by Eru. Sauron had grown so powerful and his Ring plot was so perfect (no one could willfully destroy it) that God himself had to step in on several occasions to ensure his defeat. If that's not greatness I don't know what is.

Well then, let's just say that Eru knew what he was doing.

++SAURON

You'll all soon come to your senses and vote against Celeborn, anyway.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Reasons, people, we need reasons. It won't do at all to have Formodacil disregard your votes at the end of the day.

some phantom just might use his league of 'extraordinary' puppets just to help Sauron survive. We need all the help we can get, and that means votes that count.

[Lhunardawen]

Okay, let me elucidate:

Eru did some intervention via a trio of halflings (and then some) to get rid of Sauron; this means he must have really wanted him out of the picture. And because he did, and he's supposed to be omniscient, therefore we should do as he did. Capiche?

Oh look, I'm being Eru's puppet!

[Formendacil]

The Fifteenth day of voting was about Sauron. And, as with all battles surrounding Sauron, he either won or lost dramatically. The voting fell as follows:

Elros: III

Sauron: IIIII IIII

Now, HOUSEKEEPING:

Due to various facts, such that it is 1:00 am in my timezone, I have to get up early tomorrow, I need a shower before bed, and that I've just received word of a death in "the family", I do not have time to do a proper analysis of the votes tonight. Therefore, all votes have been counted. Of course, with the way things fell, I think Sauron would have been booted anyway. To all of you including Tolkien rationale, my serious thanks! Tomorrow will be back to business-as-Tolkien-usual, with the analysis of the votes. It will also be a rather long day, as rather than stay up until 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, I'll let it drag on until I get up and online Saturday.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Line of Lúthien:
Amandil
Anárion
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the "Endorians":
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían
Narvi
Fangorn

Tribe of the Rest:
The Witch-king
Celebrimbor
Ohtar
Galadriel

Day 16 begins now. Vote away!

[Diamond18]

Now that Sauron is gone I can reveal my true motive for voting for him -- I want to be the only creature of pure evil inhabiting this thread, and he was my competition! Ha ha ha! I am not Diamond18, I am THE WITCH KING!

Okay, clearly what I am is sleep deprived and delirious.

I may retract this later, depending on whichever way my mood is violently swinging, but I'd like to start off today with a vote for:

+ + Fangorn

A: Because I want revenge for the ousting of Fimbrethil, and all the "ooh poor lovelorn Treebeard, left by a coldhearted woman" arguments that did said ousting.

B: Because he never really did anything interesting, besides destroying Isengard. Which was, okay, pretty cool, but it was one thing done in a vastly long lifetime. Most of the time he just stood around harooming and writing imitations of Elven poetry.

[Lhunardawen]

++CELEBRIAN

for being such a neglectful wife and mother! She's really just like that Fimbrethil, actually, only that she had these Orc-inflicted wounds for an excuse. Valid perhaps, but that's not the point!

Besides, Elrond needs someone to console him.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, one of the "Endorians" needs to go to maintain the balance of the show.

Which leads me to direct my gaze on Celeborn once more.

Now, the hen-pecked husband thing does elicit some sympathy from me for him. But, really, he was supposed to be the wisest Elf in Middle-earth during the Third Age. If that was the case, then surely he could have stood up for himself a bit better.

And what did he actually achieve?

In the Second and Third Ages, he ruled over Lothlorien with Galadriel. He is said to be Lord of that realm. Yet it is clear who wore the trousers in that relationship. It was primarily Galadriel's power, and the power of her Ring, which maintained Lorien's defences. And it was she who, in reality, ruled there.

He is said to have been the wisest of all Elves. Yet, even a cursory glance at the Lothlorien chapters of LotR will reveal that Galadriel was by far the wiser of the two.

He is said to have been the greatest giver of gifts. Yet it was Galadriel who bestowed the most useful gifts on the Fellowship.

He commanded the army that conquered Dol Guldur. Yet it was Galadriel who destroyed its walls, thus rendering its defences ineffective.

Let's face it, Celeborn would have been nothing without Galadriel. And all that he did achieve relied heavily on her. As they are now in different tribes, this is becoming painfully and embarassingly apparent on the show. For trying to gain fame, notoriety and power through his wife's endeavours and not through his own efforts, I vote:

+ + CELEBORN

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So anyone who lives in isolation — just hanging out, taking it easy, not going off to fight in wars or cause mischief — is not interesting and deserves to be evicted? Fair enough, we need an exciting show; but we also need a role model for people who enjoy the simple things in life; who are content with a nice walk in the forest. Not everyone on this show should be opposed to that way of life.

Treebeard is awesome. Don't vote for him.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Galadriel
Let's face it, even for Middle-earth elves
she's downright scary and daunting. And she probably
goes on endlessly about the good old days in
Aman, how she was considered the cat's meow (not
Beruthiel's lot) by the valar, how she wouldn't
let Feanor have any strands of her hair, yadda, yadda, yadda.
And if she goes it could unleash the brilliant
leader (?????) inside Celeborn.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

And if she goes it could unleash the brilliant leader (?????) inside Celeborn.

Well, their being on separate tribes hasn't exactly brought any wonderful leadership capabilities out in him. Your '?'s are most appropriate, in my humble opinion.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Very sad. It seems both Celeborn
and Rodney Dangerfield got no respect.

[Anguirel]

Saucie, your defence of "balance" fluctuates with every day that passes. You speak of equilibrium, but campaign against two brothers in a row! I'm interested to see that after the feeble outcome of your last attempt you have let Elros simply slide.

I would normally vote for Treebeard, but am somewhat moved by Eomer's appeal.

The spiteful attempt by Saucie to skewer Celeborn on stale and rotting arguments does him no credit.

No, this is the time to finally sort out the succession crisis among those of Luthien's line.

++AMANDIL has had his time, and lasted quite as long as he would wish-let him depart with honour and give his grandson, the estimable younger son Anarion of Gondor, opportunity to flourish as a King.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I'm interested to see that after the feeble outcome of your last attempt you have let Elros simply slide.

Do you actually read this thing?

I made clear that it was a vote cast to honour a pledge and that I regarded myself as being bound by said pledge for one day only.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

The spiteful attempt by Saucie to skewer Celeborn on stale and rotting arguments does him no credit.

Interesting that you would appear to have no answer to these "stale and rotting" arguments.

Your own dedication to preserving Elves, at the expense of those of your own kind, does you no credit either.

[Anguirel]

Because I've answered them before and I'm sick of it. You know that your whole anti-Celeborn splurge had the originality of a Gandalf-uncloaking joke.

And "my kind"? I see no cursed Sindar forged swords up for eviction...

Vote Amandil to let Anarion divide and rule!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Because I've answered them before and I'm sick of it.

Actually, my previous argument was based wholly on his hen-peckèdness. You answered it well and elicited some sympathy from me. Had you only joined me in my quest to rid the show of the dull bore of Rivendell, I would have stood shoulder to shoulder with you in defending him. Since you did not, my attack is redoubled with new arguments. These, you have not answered.

And "my kind"? I see no cursed Sindar forged swords up for eviction...

No, swords, cursed or otherwise, do not appear to qualify as contestants under the game rules. Which leads me to wonder whether their votes should be counted as valid ...

[Anguirel]

I don't believe I have to be but to the inconvenience of crushing these absurdly formulated, wizened little misconceptions for the ten trillionth time. Ah well. Once more into the breach...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

And what did he actually achieve?

Well, you've referenced quite a lot of what he achieved...if in a slanted fashion.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

In the Second and Third Ages, he ruled over Lothlorien with Galadriel. He is said to be Lord of that realm. Yet it is clear who wore the trousers in that relationship. It was primarily Galadriel's power, and the power of her Ring, which maintained Lorien's defences. And it was she who, in reality, ruled there.

Oh?

Who marshalled Lorien's forces? Who provided justification for the pair being there in the first place? For without Celeborn Galadriel had no de jure right to lord it over a Sindar/Silvan people, as you, Saucie, a Man of Law, should recognise!

Celeborn provided a vital cultural and linguistic bridge between the Elves of Lorien and their airy Faerie Queene. She may be astonishing and captivating, intuitive and remarkable, but I can assure you that Celeborn would have held the practical grasp of governance.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He is said to have been the wisest of all Elves. Yet, even a cursory glance at the Lothlorien chapters of LotR will reveal that Galadriel was by far the wiser of the two.

Define wise. Galadriel may have seen far, but Celeborn too gave crucial advice, in a quiet, unflashy way. For instance he warned Boromir against scorning old wives' tales. Celeborn says what he thinks. He's an Elf with feet solidly on the ground-a rare combination.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He is said to have been the greatest giver of gifts. Yet it was Galadriel who bestowed the most useful gifts on the Fellowship.

Such an obvious point. And so obviously answered. Quite simply, boats-the single most vital gift for the Fellowship at that moment. And if you look at Galadriel's gifts...short of the Phial, she gave...belts, a bow to an Elf who already had one, a tacky gem and some earth...pretty things. But Celeborn gets the points for usefulness again.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He commanded the army that conquered Dol Guldur. Yet it was Galadriel who destroyed its walls, thus rendering its defences ineffective.

You're not going to make me extoll Celeborn at Galadriel's expense, but though her achievement was splendid, the battle was already won without her. It was won the moment Celeborn's army made the vital junction with Thranduil's-the Orcs, without Nazgul to lead them, were doomed thereafter.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Let's face it, Celeborn would have been nothing without Galadriel. And all that he did achieve relied heavily on her.

It is often contended that Celeborn "is nothing without Galadriel", "is tied to apon-strings"-one has to wonder, how on earth did he rule Rivendell for Ages in the plural after her departure, in the changing world after the Ring War? Yet again Celeborn shows that he has quality alone as well as with his wife.

But my real problem with the case against Celeborn is not that it is false or illogical, but that it is trite and boring. Saucie has just evicted Elrond and tried to evict Elros on a "support the underdogs" ticket (when the other option was Sauron...) With usual duplicity and doublethink, he now attacks one of those underdogs with exhausted, tedious, borrowed venom. It seems to me pathetic.

There. I lay it to rest; I have confidence in the good taste of the Barrowdowns.

Evict Amandil.

Eomer, back me up to help Celeborn and I'll join your protection of Treebeard.

Lhuna, never vote Celeborn again and I'll...smile. Savvee?