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03-05-2006, 12:30 PM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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The Hobbit - Chapter 08 - Flies and Spiders
The dwarves and Bilbo enter Mirkwood, encountering danger which they cannot avoid. At first, they experience the strangeness of the environment, then darkness, then apparently hostile animal life.
Squirrels, usually friendly animals, are black here; what would normally be familiar seems menacing just by the change in colour. Insects cause a deep-rooted alien feeling in humans in general, and Bilbo notices their eyes with trepidation. Add to that the fact that food and water soon run low, and the group’s discomfort is complete. Then comes the inevitable – much like in traditional fairy tales, the warning about magical water or leaving the path is disregarded for some reason or other, and the curse takes effect. What fairy tales come to mind when you read this chapter? Bilbo grows with each adventure; he sees best and tells the others what to do in hopeless situations. He literally rises above himself in climbing to the top of the trees, and later is the one who rescues his companions by fighting valiantly. He makes cunning plans for drawing the spiders away from their victims, risking himself for them. We do see that the dwarves are loyal; even if the heaviest of their company has to be carried, they do not leave him behind. Other than that, they seem to do the wrong thing most of the time – a foil for the development of Bilbo’s character? We have Bilbo’s poem, taunting the spiders; what do you think of it? The narrator excuses the poor quality of those “spontaneous” lines due to the circumstances. There are several unusual words included; perhaps we can collect some information on their meaning and etymology: Attercop, Tomnoddy, Lob and Cob. What is your opinion on the nature of these spiders? They can speak, Common Speech even, and can understand Bilbo’s taunts. Taking LotR and the Sil into consideration, do you think that they are descendents of Ungoliant, perhaps children of Shelob? We are also introduced to the Wood-Elves in this chapter. Some of the information on them obviously ties in with the Legendarium, differentiating them from the High Elves. The words “more dangerous and less wise” make them sound more like fairy tale elfs, don’t they? And yet, they are called “Good People”, so Tolkien distinguishes them from the ambiguous folk narrative creatures. We find out about the enmity between dwarves and Elves; doesn’t the account of actual or supposed wrongs on both sides remind you of Thingol?! The account of Thorin’s captivity takes us away from Bilbo’s point of view for a moment, and the chapter ends in suspense as to Thorin’s fate, and that of his fellow dwarves and Bilbo too, though they are not in immediate danger at that point. What impresses, amuses, or irritates you most in this chapter? How do you think this adventure is important for the story? Oh, one minor detail that seems too significant not to mention - Bilbo's little sword gets named in this adventure!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
03-05-2006, 01:01 PM | #2 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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03-08-2006, 07:23 AM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
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It's interesting that both Northern Mirkwood and Lorien
were established as entities by Sindar kings ruling over woodelves, with Lorien later led by Noldor. The nature of most of the peoples in both realms could explain their reclusiveness, with the additional reason in Mirkwood of Thranduil (and before him Oropher?) retreating from the mountains of central Mirkwood to the northeast. It seems probable that the giant spiders were the offspring of either Ungoliant or Shelob, but which? Since I believe Ungoliant traveled to at least the area of Mordor it seems possible she visited Mirkwood on the way. Could there have been some sort of epic battle between Ungoliant's offspring and ents in Fangorn? Bilbo is seen at his most heroic, and I think Likeable, here, displaying loyalty, courage, and intelligence. That'll teach them dwarves to question the judgement of a wiuzard!
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03-08-2006, 12:26 PM | #4 | ||
Dead Serious
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Sorry, but there's no evidence that Ungoliant ever left Beleriand. As it says of Shelob, in the chapter "Shelob's Lair": Quote:
Then note the other bolded line, in which it seems to say quite clearly that there were spiders in Mirkwood descended of her. It seems quite clear to me that Tolkien intended in this passage that the spiders Bilbo faced to have been descendents of Shelob.
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03-08-2006, 12:36 PM | #5 |
The Pearl, The Lily Maid
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In which case, they would still be, indirectly, the descendents of Ungoliant...so the point is mostly moot. How do they have descendants if we never hear of any boy Spiders?
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03-08-2006, 01:36 PM | #6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
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The Silmarillion says that Ungoliant headed south from Beleriand.
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03-08-2006, 04:28 PM | #7 | ||||
Eagle of the Star
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03-09-2006, 12:44 AM | #8 | |
Dead Serious
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The part pertinent to what I was saying is that there is no evidence that Ungoliant ever dwelt in Mirkwood or the surrounding locales. Of course, I could make the case that "south" could still refer to Beleriand, since we are not informed exactly how far in that direction it extended, nor how far Ungoliant really went, but I shan't. I concede the point.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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03-12-2006, 03:42 PM | #9 |
Dead Serious
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Diving in for a more thorough overall look at this chapter- and doing it before the posting of the next one, for a miracle- I have to say that it's never been a particular favourite of mine.
Not that it isn't well-CRAFTED. Tolkien does an excellent job of simultaneously moving the plot along and letting the reader feel the passage of time. Moreso than any other chapter in this book, I really feel the days pile up, and yet Tolkien never quite falls into the trap of over-describing the boredom. On this note, one of the most vivid moments in this chapter, in my mind, is the "Butterfly Incident", when Bilbo (poor, scared-of-heights, Bilbo) climbs up the great tree, and gets a glimpse of the warm sun, and green treetops of summer, and the fluttering butterflies, and ascends temporarily from the gloom of his day-to-day life. All the same, I sympathise a great deal with Bilbo in this chapter, getting progressively more hungry and more lost. Perhaps I sympathise too much, and that's why I don't like the chapter too much. Perhaps I'm too fond of Bilbo. If so, then kudos to the author!
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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03-13-2006, 08:47 AM | #10 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
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The songs on this chapter are really funny. I loved them when TH was read aloud to me and I find them amusing even nowadays 10 or 11 years later...
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10-08-2008, 12:22 PM | #11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
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Spiders' genders not mentioned
I was discussing the Mirkwood spiders, and about them being descendants of Shelob, at the recent Oxonmoot. I remembered that Tolkien, in this chapter, never makes any mention of the spiders' genders, not even using references like 'he' or 'she' when they speak.
This makes perfect sense in terms of the story being told from Bilbo's point of view. He was busy trying to save himself and his friends, and not interested in which of the spiders he fought and killed were boy or girl ones. |
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