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02-23-2006, 05:06 PM | #1 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Gollum and Eagles: Deux ex machina?
I could not find another thread primarily about this.
A deux ex machina is usualy a person that comes unlooked for at the end of a literary work, that solves the problem and ends the conflict. Many times, the deux ex machina is an allegorical figure representing the Abrhamic God, or some other supernatural being. Wikipedia offers: Quote:
In the Return of the King, Gollum might be considored a deux ex machina. He appears at the end of the Chapter 'Mount Doom', and solves the conflict by bringing the Ring to its end and succeeding where Frodo failed (even though it be moments afterwards). He does fit the standard that he comes when he should not be expected, and it is generally viewed as the climax. However, a deux ex machina is (by general) not shown until the very end of the book. Gollum may have ened the main problem, but then there is falling action, namely 'The Scouring of the Shire', which Gollum does not fix. Also, Gollum is not exactly 'complteley new to the plot.' Granted, I thought he was either dead or perhaps taken prisoner at Barad-dur. The notion of him coming back and jumping in so quickly is not looked for though. Also, the Eagles are sometimes presented as a deux ex machina. I thought that Frodo and Sam would pass away in exhaustion. (BTW this is where the question about the Eagles taking the Ringbearer directly to Mordor comes in) But, the Ealges dont nessecarily end the conflict and problem. No offense to Frodo Im sure, but sending him to Orodruin and coming back wasnt the problem. The RIng needed to be destroyed and Sauron destroyed. What do you think? ________ Mazda S Platform Picture Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:12 PM. |
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02-23-2006, 05:30 PM | #2 |
A Mere Boggart
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Good question!
I wouldn't say Gollum fulfilled those criteria. In fact I think his reappearance at Mount Doom is integral to the whole story; he completes what Frodo was unable to complete and this situation leaves the reader with many questions to ask, ideas to consider. I also think that Gollum's end was one of the most perfect endings to any character in literature; it is not merely convenient that he did what he did, but entirely right. He disappears and then turns up right at the last moment, driven by the Ring, thus showing how far the bearers will go to keep possession of it. I also cannot see how Gollum could have gone on without the Ring, and in doing what he did, he seems to have also gained some kind of redemption. Yes, it's a big shock, but it fits the logical pattern of the story perfectly. In the end, at Mount Doom, the culmination of all this effort, there are no heroes. Now those Eagles, they are a different matter...
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02-23-2006, 05:49 PM | #3 | |
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What Lal said.
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02-23-2006, 06:04 PM | #4 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Elu!
You seem to be addressing the one case, I myself am a bit dissatisfied with Tolkien. It sure would have been beautiful, if Sam and Frodo had died at the mount Doom! That would have been a story worth singing about (remember those recurrent mentionings by Sam about the food-ratios!), as Sam foretold it. The whole ending sequence is a bit odd. First there is this "deus ex machina", the Eagles', to turn Frodo & Sam safe and sound back to Minas Tirith, and then all this stuff with the hobbits' making the better of Saruman. It's kind of an easy ending for a story that would have deserved a better one? Another thing to be worth of a closer look, is Tolkien's going for a fatalistic solution. Like in Matrix - were the whole thing was made even more badly - the end-result is kind of "the way things have to be". Gandalf points out to the decision of Bilbo, not to kill Gollum, and Frodo takes on that: Gollum has a role to play in some larger picture, that is foretold already, even if he doesn't understand it quite yet. Then, while Frodo can't throw the Ring away, Gollum comes to finish the thing. Kind of "deus ex machina" that one too... So everything's in order, as it will have to be, you just have to find out the reason to behave in a manner you should? But how about, if the world really is a bit more complicated place? Maybe the world is a place, where there are no easy solutions (black or white) and going strongly by your belief, really makes more damage than helps anyone?
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02-23-2006, 07:09 PM | #5 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well, personally I think the Eagles may be a case of 'deux ex machina' as they had not been an integral part of the story (besides perhaps saving Gandalf from harm) and I can't recall knowing how they got there.
On the other hand, I strongly disagree with Gollum being anywhere near the definition. First of all, he is definetly a big part of the story. Frodo would have never made it to where he did if it wasn't because of Gollum, even though his betrayal. Then, we just don't know what happens to Gollum, but ithere is some mention of him by the two orcs that were looking for Frodo and Sam once they escape from the tower. Quote:
Besides, in retrospective, it's quite evident that Gandalf knew that Gollum would have something to do with the destruction of the ring Quote:
Having said that, I also agree with Lalwendë in her assesment of Gollum's end.
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02-23-2006, 08:32 PM | #6 | |
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Concerning the Eagles. Yes, I would say that they are definitely a case of Deus ex Machina. In some ways, they don't really 'fit.' Gwaihir, of course, has connections with Gandalf - are Eagles capable of osanwë? But if Frodo and Sam were to be saved, then there really doesn't seem to be much way around it. The circumstances were too dire and everyone else too far away, even if they could be able to rescue them. And although the Eagles could not have brought the Ring directly to Mordor because it would draw too much attention, there is already a battle going on (or about to go on when they start out), it's not like they're going to bring a lot of extra attention. The other thing that perhaps is not considered enough is that the Eagles might actually have come to aid in the battle (that question of osanwë again), and that their aid was just needed when Gandalf realized what was going on. So I suppose the case could be presented either way. Just like Gollum's death can be explained in other ways, so can the appearance of the Eagles. And in a fantasy world that does have a God, and in a story where there are the themes of hope and mercy and healing, maybe the Eagles aren't so out of place after all. |
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02-23-2006, 09:01 PM | #7 | |||
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02-23-2006, 09:07 PM | #8 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Isn't the deus ex machina (used in Greek plays) the fall into Sammath Naur, in regards to Gollum? Don't some believe that it's the hand of Eru who gives him the nudge over the edge?
Today, being of different opinion, I think that Gollum is not nudged, and that Eru played no overt part in it. Gollum is a rogue, meaning, to me, the element of chaos. Good and evil can be balanced, yet every now and then the pot needs a good stir, some tension, to bring forth something new. Bilbo possessed the Ring, but did not follow Frodo. Sauron desired the Ring, yet did not search for it himself and thought more of war than just finding the Ring ("I'll crush the islands of Free Folk then continue the search."). Very unmoved - inactive - and very orderly and structured, respectively. Gollum, though old, decimated, starving, tortured in mind and body, still goes after the Ring. He plays both sides, good and evil, and even has two personalities, but what joins them is the chaos. What a show for Eru! It most likely sat on the edge of it's seat, waiting to see how the dice would come up. Frodo could not destroy the Ring; the Wise knew or at least suspected that. Would Sauron be able to get the Ring from Frodo? Surely he would - there's no betting on that outcome. So we have Gollum, who if he gets to Frodo sooner (i.e. with Shelob), the Dark Lord might recover the Ring and all is lost. If he gets to Frodo later, Frodo puts him down before he strikes (and still all is lost). but if Gollum goes after the Ring, like he does, when Frodo is still admiring himself, there's a chance that Gollum will succeed, lose, destroy the Ring (with or without destroying Frodo), etc. The outcome is less certain and therefore more interesting. Ah chaos. Gollum could play either side, and more likely neither side, as he was neither good nor evil, but somewhat unique. The dice were tumbling, and how will they land? Afterwards, when Gollum reclaims the Ring yet falls off the edge (chaos makes poor choices as well as better choices - at random), the game is over. Eru, pickled pink by the great show, sends the Eagles as a 'thank you' to the players Frodo and Sam. Hope that this makes some sense. Gods who know what will be must get bored.
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02-23-2006, 09:35 PM | #9 | |
Illusionary Holbytla
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Maybe I just enjoy your debate, Nogrod... ;)
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This is probably why I've never had a problem with the Eagles. They might not 'fit' quite right in the story, but the miracles for me do not detract from the story, they add to it. This undoubtedly has much to do with my upbringing and faith, but there it is. The prospect that Sam's simple preserverence and hope that brought them out onto the mountain was fulfilled even beyond hope is very right to me. Even if it does take the Eagles to do it. I haven't quite decided what I think that Gollum's fall is... a simple mistake or an act of Eru, it doesn't really matter to me. As Lalwende so well put it, it is so entirely right that whichever reason is correct (or a mixture of both) does not ultimately matter to me. It is just right. I guess my point is that I wouldn't consider it so much fatalist as ever hopeful. It's that hope... faith... that everything will turn out right. |
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02-23-2006, 09:38 PM | #10 | |||
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EDIT: Cross-posted with Firefoot
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02-23-2006, 09:45 PM | #11 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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That is no bad ground to interpret a book, but there are other ways to do it also... Love you, Firefoot! Making a good point anyways
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02-23-2006, 09:51 PM | #12 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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The eagles were permitted, in my view, to enter the fray as the quest was finished. To show beforehand (excepting the dwarf and wizard airlift to the vales of Anduin, of course) would be breaking the rules. Eru, through Manwë, sends the Istari to counter Sauron. Surely if it wanted a faster result, though with little to no free will input from the ME dwellers, Eru could have permitted the Istari Uncloaked to be delivered to Sauron's porch via the Eagles. Sauron may be the match of one or two wizards, but not five at once, and not as wizened old men but as they are in Aman.
But where's the fun in that? That would be like me pre-chewing all of my children's food. Sure it would be fun, but they'd develop weak jaws, and exactly why would they need teeth? And when I'm gone... So the Eagles get to show up after the residents of ME, acting together (the feint of Aragorn, the defense of the Mark by the ents, the Galadhrim and Bardings etc etc) along with Frodo, uproot the current big bad weed. They're a bonus. Frodo and Sam could die on Mount Doom, but they're still needed to start the cycle again, as we see in the Scouring, as most likely the Valar aren't sending any more help. Sauron is defeated and the rules aren't broken.
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02-23-2006, 09:55 PM | #13 | |
Illusionary Holbytla
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Okay, so maybe some of it is aesthetics. But not wholly - it's not quite that simple. There was more for them to do, further for them to go before the story could end. The problem was that without some kind of Deus ex Machina, there wasn't really a way for that to happen - hence the Eagles. |
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02-23-2006, 10:06 PM | #14 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Everyone has choices. I'm too tired for a butterfly effect world, as that's a bit silly, but I think that we and Frodo could and can decide our fates. Frodo could have let another stand forth at Rivendell, and then we'd be discussing the Eagles saving Chuck and Tom. Or, as Lush may prefer, Rosie and Daisy. Or, in another view, Frodo made the choice to throw the Ring away along the journey, and shortly thereafter the Ring is recovered and sometime later, the everlasting Darkness covers all who could not flee. Now, assuming ME is our 'history,' this did not happen as we wouldn't be here. Or, it did, but not in this universe, as again we still have Sam and Frodo. Have I muddled things enough?
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02-23-2006, 10:15 PM | #15 | |||
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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02-23-2006, 10:46 PM | #16 |
Dread Horseman
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Wow, fast moving thread! I still need to catch up on the many interesting posts here, but I thought I'd toss out that there is in fact an old deus ex machina thread started by the long lost doug*platypus. Keep rolling here -- just thought those with spare time and an extra-special interest in deus ex might be interested.
I'll be back here if I can get up to speed and think of something worth adding. |
02-23-2006, 10:48 PM | #17 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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You can put it in two ways; either we have the chance, or then we do not. The first case can be put in a way, that there is something or someone, that has to choose the actions or whatever it might be. Another way to look at that, is to say, you can justify your choises' (etc.) at the face of a fortune, or a world as such, by which you have to do one thing or another. Or then one just is a piece in the play we call the world, acting, along the lines one is supposed to act, after the chemical and biological ways we've built with. Or then we are just quantum machines, going about quite randomly, but without a clear pattern. Or then with a one?... So just saying, I think (therefore I am - what a common sense nonsense!) , is not enough? Sorry to make this harder as it should be...
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02-24-2006, 04:14 AM | #18 |
Spectre of Decay
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Some philosophical thoughts about Middle-earth and some Eagles links
In the end what we think is immaterial. The point is that Tolkien thought that this world is one in which we have the freedom to choose our actions and that we are personally responsible for them. For Tolkien, each decision really does come down to a moral choice for good or ill, and without that structure his mythology and his novels make no sense. Moreover it would be extremely odd for a Christian to believe that we are simply automatons performing predetermined actions in a random and meaningless universe.
However we might view the primary world, Tolkien's sub-created universe is one with a creator, a supreme being who is the source of good. This benificent presence gives meaning to Tolkien's universe, and the presence of evil within that universe introduces the necessity for moral choice and individual moral responsibility. Many of the workings of Arda make no sense whatsoever when divorced from this structure. Now, the supreme being may sometimes intervene, directly or indirectly, but Tolkien always forces his characters to decide their own actions for themselves. In the case of Frodo, we do actually have Tolkien's word for it that he could never have resisted the temptation of the Ring in the final crisis. Thus the conclusion of his quest presents a moral lesson about his tolerance and mercy toward Gollum. If Frodo and Sam had killed him, as it was only logical and sensible to do, then he would have been unable through his final treachery to save Frodo from the domination of the Ring. Essentially, Frodo has the opportunity to decide whether he is to destroy the Ring and complete his mission or to claim it as his own and be destroyed, but his will has been overcome. He is no longer able to make the decision for himself, but the outcome of his earlier decisions has been to bring the means of his salvation with him. All in all this does not overturn the basic premise that Frodo possesses free will within the context of Tolkien's fiction (which is the only context in which he exists in any case). Perhaps someone who has access to their books will be able to give the location of Tolkien's reflections in his published letters. Before I was sidetracked down this philosophical path, I meant to point out that the Eagles as a deus ex machina were also discussed in Flaws in Lord of the Rings... Yes in the book., which is also still open. There were some nice reflections there from Kalimac among others. There's also a thread called The Great Eagle Mystery, which immediately sprang to mind when I saw this discussion. These may be of help on this matter, and I certainly make more valuable contributions in the former thread than I have here. If you wanted the lyrics to albums by the Eagles, you should look at this site.
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02-24-2006, 11:50 AM | #19 | |||||
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02-24-2006, 12:15 PM | #20 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Reading Raynor's post made me think about the fact that as a species (and I would extrapolate this to our elven cousins) we have the ability and desire to see patterns. This ability yields a clear survival advantage.
Three dwarves walk singly into the East-gate of Moria, pre-Balin colony days. Each one walks in, I hear some noise, then I hear "Durin's Bane is upon us!" then "Argh!" The dwarf fails to come back out. By the third one I'm convinced that entering Moria is not warranted at this time. Also, when one arrogant elf would rise each morning, he would note that shortly thereafter the sun would appear in the eastern sky. He concluded that his rising caused the Sun to rise also. Obviously. My point (do I have one ?) is that we have no idea if Gildor Inglorion, Elrond and Gandalf, were, shall we say, simply blowing smoke. I was meant to type this post, and some of you knew that .
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02-24-2006, 01:00 PM | #21 | |||
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02-24-2006, 02:28 PM | #22 | |
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02-24-2006, 07:46 PM | #23 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Concerning Eagles: It seems that in terms of literature, everytime the Eagles appear in Tolkiens work it is some kind of Deux ex machina kind of way. Its interesting, because the Eagles are the kind of missionaries of Manwe, in a sense (they dont go around converting people, but they are his sort of representations in mortal lands). Everytime the Eagles show up it seems to modify the plot greatly whearas if they hadnt. The Dwarves might have had to trek endlessly until they made it across the Andunin, and delayed Gandalfs coming to Dol Gulder and the White Council. The Battle of Five Armies might have been a loss, or more Pyrric. Although the Eagles attcked the Nazgul at the Black Gate, we can see this led to Mount Doom. And of course, we might have had a wizards corpse on Orthanc.
Considering Gollum and the Eagles, it brings up that interesting point of fatalism mentioned. I think that in Arda, all things excluding Eru and the Valar for the most part are meant to be. Now, part of this is Mandos. The prophocey of the Dagorath proves he Eru and Manwe and anyone else know of the last battle with Melkor. However, I do not think that they know each and every thing that will happen. The Valar have the Fire, so they make choices; yet the ones that seem the most important come before the Elves. That is mainly which Ainar went with Melko and who stayed with Manwe. After then the choices are mostly one-sided. The War of Wrath is no exception; whenever Morgoth created Mass war that was destroying Middle Earth, the Valar were the only ones who could stop him if no oine else could. So I think, like Gandalf predicted, that the Ring would be destroyed, but the manner of "how" is the unknown. The destruction of the Ring, at least when spoke about the most Wise (Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, etc) was always hinted at as,"You realize what would happen if Sauron and the RIng wernt destroyed," even though it would mean,"We known that Sauron is fated to be destroyed eventually(couldnt survive the Dagorath if it was that long) so lets take him out before things get any worse." So I dont think Mandos and Eru knew that Ted Sandyman would be a pain, (doubtless they had the power, but that was not what it was for) but I think they knew that a being named Gandalf would aid Free Peoples including the Little People to bring about the destruction of Sauron, and a sebret Blueprint and DNA sheet of Balrogs and their bodily extremities. ________ MONTANA DISPENSARIES Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:14 PM. |
02-24-2006, 08:52 PM | #24 | ||
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Last night I really seemed to have been carried away beyond my skills in the language I use. Sorry about that. I appreciate Elu's point about the Eagles.
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Not wishing to offend anyone...
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02-24-2006, 09:03 PM | #25 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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What my beleif on Tolkien is that characters had choice that was moral, and they were given thus chance to make that choice free of supernatural intervention, but Eru and Mandos and who-not knew that choice. So it really is free will, but just they know what will happen and how it will end up; so rather than being omnipresent and omnipotent through time, its rather like a computer playing chess: They can analyze every possible move, and can draw conclusions what will happen vecause of it, but they cant influence the human players' move.
________ Hot penny stocks Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:14 PM. |
02-24-2006, 09:12 PM | #26 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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02-26-2006, 09:42 PM | #27 |
Wight
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Sorry if this isn't about what you guys are currently discussing, but I've been thinking about the "deus ex machina" thing.
In school we've been studying Shakespeare, and a "deus ex machina" was usually something like an angel or a "savior" figure that comes from the the top of the stage unexpectedly, lowered down by a machine similar to a crane. This event would happen towards the end of the play This fits the meaning of the phrase, which is "god out of machine". Looking at it in that perspective, I'd say that the Eagles were more of a "deus ex machina" than Gollum was. They were literally saving figures coming from the sky at the end of the story, and to those who hadn't read the books, were totally unexpected. However, they did not help with the main purpose of the story. The main purpose was to destroy the Ring. They didn't really have much to do with the actual act of destroying it. It was good that they came and saved Frodo (and Sam), because it made the story better, but I don't think they meet the full criteria for "deus ex machina". Gollum, on the other hand, fulfills the other half of the criteria. He comes out of nowhere to help with the main purpose of the story, destroying the Ring. In fact, without him, that would never have happened. But he doesn't come out of the sky, or from above. He is unexpected, though. So the way I see it, Gollum isn't fully a "deus ex machina" either. This is just what I thought while reading the earlier parts of this thread.
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02-28-2006, 03:11 AM | #28 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Squatter gets it right for me here:
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A couple of things. On these threads it has been mentioned that Frodo failed at the Sammath Naur and there were no 'heroes' at this point. In my point of view Frodo SUCEEDED. Did he physically throw the Ring into the Fire? NO. But what was the Quest? To destroy the One Ring. Was the One Ring destroyed? YES. Was it destroyed because of Frodo's compassion towards Gollum? YES. Therefore to me, Gollum is about as far away from a D E M as you can get. He is integral to the whole of the LOTR. Regarding the Eagles. They were servants of Manwe, right? So giving them the Ring to fly into Mordor gives us these problems: 1/ Gwahair could well have kept the Ring for himself, just like Gandalf would have - the temptation would have been too great. These birds aren't the normal flap your wings, eat food, and die variety - They are sentient beings. So, they couldn't give the Ring to the Eagles. 2/ It would have set alarm bells ringing throughout Mordor if they attempted to fly into Mordor and Mount Doom WHILST SAURON WAS ALIVE AND THE RING NOT DESTROYED. So they couldn't do that either. 3/ Did the Eagles really save the day at the Morannon? I can't see where it says this. They assisted, no doubt, but once the Ring was cast into the Fire (which happened fairly quickly after they arrived, I surmise), then the forces of Sauron at the Black Gates did a runner anyway, didn't they? 4/ Therefore why are the Eagles a D E M? Why aren't they entitled to fight against Sauron. They faught in the battle of the 5 armies? - were they seen as a D E M there? I admit they were a way of retrieving Frodo and Sam quickly from Mount Doom. But the Eagles here are a veichle to quickly move the characters back to their friends, rather than having to have Gandalf srping after them on Shadowfax (for example) - they were a handy veichle for Tolkien to use to get his heroes back ASAP and keep the story moving. 5/ Gwahair has already been in the LOTR assisting Gandalf a couple of times, as was his wont. Again, this seems to disprove the theory that the Eagles were a D E M. anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.... |
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02-28-2006, 11:15 AM | #29 | ||
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02-28-2006, 12:56 PM | #30 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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fair point (haven't read that book yet, so not sure if it's tolkien's point or his son Christopher - if its the latter it's just another opinion....)
but it adds to my point that you definately don't give them the eagles the Ring then! PS Gwahair sounded like a pretty sentient being to me...... |
02-28-2006, 02:29 PM | #31 | ||
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02-28-2006, 02:39 PM | #32 | |
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In the time that you've been on the 'Downs, it has become immediately clear that you know your Letters and HoME backwards and forwards. You ought, however, realize better than most the flip-flopping of opinion that Tolkien experienced on many, many of his topics. For example, with regards to this quotes on Eagles et al, Tolkien was looking for a viable way of explaining their apparent sentience. There is no conclusive proof (which I would define as multiple texts from later or contemporary dates giving the same opinion) that he ultimately decided that this new idea of his was correct. As I recall from that particular passage, there is a very clear air of SUGGESTION to all the texts in that section of Morgoth's Ring. In other words, although Tolkien puts forward this as an idea, I would say that to quote it as definitively decided by him would be rather foolhardy.
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02-28-2006, 03:23 PM | #33 | |
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By the by, nice post Essex.
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02-28-2006, 04:08 PM | #34 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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Unfortunately, the 'texts' do contradict each other, so that doesn't take us much further forward. CT comments (in the documentary JRRT: A Film Portrait) that towards the end of his life his father had become somewhat 'detatched' from the Legendarium & approached it in the same way as he would have approached any ancient mythology. It had taken on a life of its own & he was free to analyse it & attempt to understand its meaning & implications. He did this as an Orthodox Catholic & his analysis was not free from bias. In Catholicism animals do not have 'souls', they are not 'sentient' in the human sense. Hence Tolkien the commentator attempts to rationalise the Legendarium in line with his own worldview. The next serious problem we have is that he still claimed ownership of the Legendarium. Eventually his 'analysis' confronted him with a major difficulty - it was not 'Catholic'. Or at least it was not sufficiently Catholic for his own comfort. One has only to read the letters from correspondents which question such things as the apparent display of pity on the part of the Trolls in TH. Tolkien's initial response was to claim it was only an 'impression' the reader had picked up & that the truth was different (he proceeds to construct a very convoluted & not very convincing theory as to how the reader is mistaken in this 'impression'). So far the translator & the commentator are obeying the rules & sticking to the strict dividing line between them. Then it all starts to go snafu. He starts his project of rewriting the Legendarium & we get the 'Myths Transformed' mess, which, if he'd pursued it, would have unravelled the whole thing. Luckily, he didn't get very far. |
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02-28-2006, 04:51 PM | #35 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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Kelvars with souls presents a host of problems; their fea must come from Eru also (no vala is capable of creating spirits); now animals arrived in Arda before even the elves (creatures "old and strong") - so incarnate fear would be allowed to awaken before the elves, but dwarves can't? And we are also told the Children of Eru (men and elves) are the creator's own addition to the music - if animals have souls, then they too are an addition, but no one is looking forward to/over them (only poor Radagast ), no one is seeking rule over them and there is no mention of them in the Ainulindale.
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It is worth noting that Elves differentiate between incarnates (beings with both fea and hrondo) and animals: Quote:
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02-28-2006, 04:58 PM | #36 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
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This may be what Gandalf was hinting at all the way way back in Bag End when he asked Frdod if he really could kill a creature such as Gollum. I think Gandalf too may have had this moment of realisation, or even had it from the beginning. It may have taken deep understanding of the true nature of The Ring to appreciate what Gollum was and what he was motivated by, something Gandalf would perhaps have known, but maybe only another Ring Bearer could truly understand? Even so, Sam, despite being a Ring Bearer, still does not appreciate Gollum in the same way that Frodo does. If Frodo's compassion was leading up to the moment of confrontation at the Sammath Naur then this makes this different take on Frodo's heroism all the more interesting; it is only at the point where possession of The Ring is truly at stake that compassion turns to anger. Gollum of course has been almost (but not necessarily completely) possessed by The Ring, whereas Frodo has to this point remained relatively unpossessed. Right at the end, both are suddenly utterly possessed and the compassion that has got them there flies out of the window as they fight for The Ring. So it's fascinating that at this point Sauron's influence is so strong and yet it is overcome, by fate or just chance? To me the fact that Gollum came back at this stage is not only integral to the story, but perfectly fits with Gollum's character and personality, and I agree, Gollum cannot be called a Deus ex machina. Quote:
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02-28-2006, 05:23 PM | #37 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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The idea that the Great Eagles, Huan, Shadowfax, Roac, etc have no sana doesn't stand up. The idea that along with Orcs & Trolls they are merely 'machines' doesn't work. If Morgoth (& later Sauron?) is simply supplying their motivating force simply begs the question 'Who is supplying the motivating force of the Eagles, Huan, Shadowfax (& why does Gandalf refer to Shadowfax as his 'friend', or Legolas refer to Arod in the same way?. A Wizard & an Elf would not refer to a 'robot' as a friend). I think the simplest explanation is that (in M-e at least) most animals are made up of fea & hroa, but some also have sana as well. Whether sana is gifted to certain animals by Eru is another question. |
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02-28-2006, 09:11 PM | #38 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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[QUOTE]=Nogrod
Well. That's always the good question: if someone knows your choice beforehand, is it a real choice anymore? And why would some God let her creations to choose badly anyhow? What would be the point? She would anyhow know beforehand, who would be "guessing" right, and who would not, so predeterming everything anyhow?[/QUOTE] Well, even if they knew the choice, they didnt have to influence it. Like, we all (should have known) that Kuru would do what he did at the end of Survivor: The Hobbit but nobody really made him do it. Also thats what I think. ITs just a mix. Because what does it matter to Eru anyhow? Arda will become Healed in the End, so when you know the Beginning and you know the End, does what happen in the Middle really matter to him? ________ Yamaha xv250 Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:15 PM. |
02-28-2006, 09:31 PM | #39 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Concluding negotiations
Posts: 103
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Originally posted by alatar
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From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken; The crownless again shall be king. |
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03-03-2006, 08:15 PM | #40 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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I can't agree with Tolkien about his own work here, if it's actually his idea. It doesn't seem to fit his understanding of evil. Beasts raised to a higher level? Maybe. But the language of the above named orcs strike me as being more akin to human sentience that has become extremely evil and cunning, especially in the case of Grishnakh (best orc Tolkien ever wrote!). |
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