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View Poll Results: Is Eru God? | |||
Yes | 43 | 66.15% | |
No | 22 | 33.85% | |
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll |
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12-19-2005, 09:49 PM | #241 |
Itinerant Songster
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Thanks, Heren Istarion, for the light to go with all the heat.
There is a quality of power, a rooted reality, a dynamic of the spirit in LotR that I find nowhere else, not in any other myth, except for the Bible. The two sharing a common root of reality. This demonstrates to me that they are harmonious at the deepest levels. |
12-19-2005, 11:06 PM | #242 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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I do not see any credible interpretation of any passage of the Christian Bible where angelic beings crossbreed with humans. The Nephilim citation is the most oft presented, but there is much evidence that angel/human mixing is an incorrect reading of the passage. Noncorporal beings do not breed with corporal beings in either world. Elves, therefore, must be somewhere in between corporal and spirit. The Ainur and Maia appear to humans seemingly without prior consulting with the One. There are even examples where not all of the Ainur are on the same page (Ulmo talking to Tuor). Angels, however, are on a short leash and do the exact bidding of the Lord. Text that sounds like the angels disagreeing with God etc is just the way the writer anthropomorphizes the event, makes the story more readable and/or attempts to express the point that 'even the Angels did such and such' to demonstrate something of God (His mercy, restraint, etc). And consider, exactly who documents conversations between angels and the Christian God?
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12-20-2005, 09:52 AM | #243 | |||
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I think the angels had, and have, free will. Those who did not fall away earlier have no blinders on and can see the whole picture quite clearly, and know it would be abominably stupid to rebel against God. Quote:
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12-20-2005, 11:33 AM | #244 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Again, I am no theologian and I do not intend any disrespect. Anyway, I see no reason nor mechanism by which angels mate with humans. Tolkien explains how it works in ME, as stated, by having elves be the intermediary and, as you have stated, showing that these nonphysical beings take a physical form of their choosing in order to interact with the physical environment and beings therein. But does Tolkien have the equivalent, as you posit for the Christian world, spawn of the evil ones running around at any time? Melkor perverts the elves to beget orcs, yet I don't remember reading where Melkor or any on his side (like Sauron) mate with elves, men, dwarves etc. Quote:
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12-20-2005, 01:48 PM | #245 | |||||||
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12-20-2005, 02:12 PM | #246 | ||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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It'd be better than just admitting that they are tall and we short. Quote:
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12-20-2005, 04:28 PM | #247 |
A Northern Soul
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Angels have carried out actions just as the Valar did. Neither are absolutely necessary. Both still exist in their respective texts, and carry out actions in the name of God. I think I've missed where this tangent started...what point are you trying to make?
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12-20-2005, 09:38 PM | #248 | ||
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12-21-2005, 09:36 PM | #249 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Anyway, this tangent (or at least the one in my mind) started when I pondered foreknowledge in Arda and in the Christian world. After that, we looked at angels/ainur, and then other minutia.
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12-21-2005, 10:55 PM | #250 | ||
Dead Serious
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12-22-2005, 09:23 AM | #251 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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And to go off on another tangent: In Arda, we have the drowning of Númenor - the Gift taken back. I used to think of this event as a shadow for the Noachian Flood, but more detailed analysis would show that these two events aren't very similar. In Arda, only a specific island is destroyed. Though survivors, on boats, leave Númenor before the drowning, they do not have to take anything but the tunics on their backs and any artifacts that they might treasure - the rest of the world and all of the flora and fauna therein are not threatened. Elendil's family, loyal to the Valar and respecting the Ban, leave as it is prudent (they are threatened by the King's men) and not because Manwe tells them that it might be a good idea. Many other differences can be cited, and so maybe only I thought that the two were concordant somehow. Anyway, the question then is: Is Eru God? The God of the Bible has destroyed mankind, locally and globally at times. Seemingly Eru has only done this once locally. To me YHWH has intervened, not only it little ways, but also on a global massive scale. Eru seems to sit back and watch, taking a less active role, and if he does act, then it may be in some small way (as when it is assumed that he pushes Gollum over the edge). Is Eru a less stern/punishing God?
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12-22-2005, 09:44 AM | #252 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Of course, He may have other aspects which we don't know of (can't ?? know of) but in terms of His relationship to us (as creatures) He is primarily our Creator, & its difficult to know/experience Him as anything else. That said, He is also a destroyer of what He creates (in certain circumstances). So, God (& Eru) creates not so much out of a desire for something to love (which implies a deficit or lack in God) but because He (being a Creator) can do no other - its kind of spontaneous with Him. Hence we're not told anything about Him pre-Creation. Which is not to say that He doesn't do other stuff as well - its just that the only aspect of Him that we can know, the only 'relationship' we can have with Him is the Creator/Created one. |
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12-22-2005, 09:51 AM | #253 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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12-22-2005, 10:09 AM | #254 | |||
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My right clicker isn't working so I can't bring up a quote from a different post. Anyway, davem, Eru is revealed to the people of Middle Earth to a much lesser extent than Yahweh is to us. Nevertheless, the likeness is quite evident to me. In either case, I see a Deity that is not merely a creator, certainly not instinctive as you seem to suggest. Even his creative activity is within the context of his love. Yes, Helen, wants to. He wants relationship with us puny little bits of self-aware matter. He wants us to last forever, and not merely last but enJoy him forever. Omniscience seems to fit okay with that. |
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12-22-2005, 10:54 AM | #255 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Such a God may well be Omniscient & Omnipotent, but is Imperfect by nature of missing something. By contrast, a God who creates because it is His nature to create is not Imperfect in creating things, but is rather expressing His nature fully. This does not deny that such a God would love what He had created (is God's Love separated from His Creativity, or are they 'one' & the same?). Meister Eckhart took the idea of God as Creator so far that he stated that God had not only created all things, but was constantly creating them, that past, present & future (& all things in them) are being created by God, are in a constent state of being created - otherwise they would not exist (ie even the past must be created by God 'NOW'- that is in 'Eternity'- in order for it to exist (or have existed from our perspective) ie, if God wasn't constantly 'creating' the past it would cease to exist & we would have no memory of it. If any of that makes sense.... |
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12-25-2005, 08:53 PM | #256 |
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What you say is not without merit, davem, from my perspective. The upshot of what I understand from your post is that God maintains all Creation and that God's activity, in Eternity, in doing so, is constant. For humans to say that God wanted and needed to create humans is probably particularizing God's activity and being in terms of humans.
I seem to recall that alatar raised a remonstration regarding angels "clothing" themselves in human form, probably right down to DNA, including the capability for reproduction and the continuation of a human line through many generations: how, then, is the humanity of Christ, who is God, according to Christians, special? The answer is that Jesus is God, not merely an angel, and that he did not "clothe" himself (no matter how completely that may be done) in humanity, but was conceived in Mary's womb by the Spirit of God, was carried to term through pregnancy, and was BORN fully human AND fully God. Exceptional. Beyond that, Jesus' purpose was his own death (and resurrection) in order to satisfy the justice of God. Only a man who was God could accomplish that. Qualitatively different from angels clothing themselves in human form for the sake of their self-glorification. |
12-25-2005, 10:24 PM | #257 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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To say that angels, with the permission/help of God, clothe themselves in bodies is one thing, but to say that all angels can at will 'be' in the physical world and mate with humans is, to me, beyond the pale. Tolkien's angels weren't exactly thus.
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12-26-2005, 10:16 PM | #258 |
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Good points, alatar. Christ's victory over death, sin, and hell, was over fallen angels as well. Things changed regarding what fallen angels could do upon Christ's harrowing of hell.
With that power and authority available to any believer (according to the final verses of the gospel of Matthew), not only has the liberty of fallen angels been significantly curtailed, but may be further impeded whenever believers take their faith seriously enough to wield it according to the power and authority given to them. So a fallen angel clothing itself in human flesh couldn't happen anymore. Admittedly, I don't have Scriptural backing ready to hand to defend my thoughts, but it seems to account for things, especially if you consider all the things that are recorded in the Old Testament and the old myths. My hunch is that there's more reality in those old myths than we care to credit them with. |
12-30-2005, 04:56 AM | #259 |
Animated Skeleton
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I always figured he was.
The way I see it is you have to keep in mind that much is taken or inspired by Christianity without directly referring or relating to it. It is fantasy, after all. Much is used in abstract metaphor and analogy with Tolkien's own storytelling and originality. The similarities come and go, though. If you notice there's much Norse and Celtic influence as well. So I think it's definantely there, but so is a great deal of other things. |
01-01-2006, 01:40 PM | #260 | |
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Western culture is made up, by and large, of Hebrew, Greek, and Germanic (read both Teutonic and Celtic there) influences. Everything (perhaps until recently with Eastern influences gaining ground) produced in Western culture has been an admixture of these three influences. So as davem says, Nordic deities and pagan influences are reflected in LotR; also, Christian influences are there. One point that Shippey makes, which seems to bear directly upon this discussion, is that Tolkien could see that the Greek and Christian influences on Western culture were waning, and would continue to, and part of what we have in LotR is a presentation of Germanic culture at its best and most noble, even with the potential outlook of doom and despair found in Ragnarök: "So we have no hope; let us continue to do what is right because it is right." Are, then, Aragorn, Gandalf, Eomer, Faramir, Frodo (a most unhobbitish hobbit) and the rest, exemplars of Germanic noble thought as it would have/could have been had there been no Hebrew/Greek overbearing influences? Who can say? What bearing has any of this on the question first laid forth in this thread? Is Eru God? I still think so, and always have. I can however (and could before) see how others would see Eru as less the Hebrew/Christian God and more an Odin or Jove, or perhaps none of the above but Eru as described within the Legendarium, culled form the particular mind of a man heavily influenced by Germanic thought in its purist form (language and myth). Last edited by littlemanpoet; 01-01-2006 at 01:47 PM. |
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02-01-2006, 08:09 PM | #261 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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No.
One of the first things that came to mind was, the boundary between polytheism and monotheism. Sometimes it is hard to say which is which. All of the Abarhamic religions are, of course, montheist, and then Eru shows the Tolkien world as montheist. However, with the addition of the Valar, namely Manwe and Melkor, there is a little rebuttle. Eru created Ea, and Arda, and all the Ainur. It seems though, for the most part, after letting Ainu enter Arda, Eru does not come back into the histories. The only exception I can think of would be with the Akabellath, and then it is in action, not in dialogue. I do not think Eru had any part in the council that chose the Heren Istarion. And count the Dwarf incident with Aule if you want, but Eru was involved with the creation of all the Free. (c'mon, hobbits dont count...) So Eru seemed to be, because of the Music, that he was a director in a band/orchestra, and they met for a week, then he let the players go off without him and 'practice' i guess for a year, and at the end of the year he would bring them back and see what they learned and make a greater Music. So although Eru created the Ainur, Ea, and Arda, he virtually left it alone, except for the very beginning, and the very End. So he did not govern Arda, the Valar did. So while Eru is the (THE) creator of Arda, he did not intervene with The War of the Powers, the First War/Battle, or the War of Wrath, or the the coming of the three elves to Valinor, or even shoving Melko through the Door of Night(not that we're told anyway, but since there is so little recorded about direct confrontation with Eru, it should be assumed he did not take a part in it). So one way you can compare the Valar (or the Maiar too if you can fit them) is to the Greek Pantheon. The way the Greek Gods came about was, first there was nothing, and that was Chaos. Unlike common religion, the universe created the gods instead of vice versa. The motif that makes it work is that "Things create their opposites." So first there was nothing, and that nothingness created Something. That something was a few things: Love, Dark[ness] (Erebus), and Gaia. Then Darkness has to create its opposite, wich is Light. Then Love comes in, and a way to put is that Gaia wanted a boyfriend. (Gaia is considered the terrestrial Earth) So Gaia had a child, Ouranus (yes pronounced like Uranus, whoch is ironic...just keep reading ) Ouranus becomes the Heavens. So Ouranus + Love + Gaia = more stuff. So borne from Gaia is the Hecatoncries (sp?), who are hundred handed and fifty fingered or something like that , then three Cyclops, then finally the Titans. Now then the Gods are born from Cronus who takes the throne of the Titans by slicing off Ouranus', erm, anus, and Gaia makes him king Titan basically. So Cronus and another Titan have Zeus and other gods, then the gods rebell.....pointbeing, the gods were not first, yet they governed the Earth. In a sense, Eru might be identified as a 'Chaos', or some metephorical being (like stated in my post about Tom Bombadil) and even though he spoke to the Valar (omitting the fact of Eru being the universe or something) only the Valar can account for that. Also, ideally, the terrestial earth was already present when the Christian God pulled the 'Let there be Light!', so while Yaweh created everything, the Earth is not mentioned, but surely it must have though, and then Manwe did not create Arda. (though a single command, like you cannot say Aule created Middle-Earth but he did. Perhaps that is why the Free hold the Valar in high esteem, yet do not mention Eru like they would if they were praying (they would probably pray to Manwe, or the Valar in general). Eru seemed to be impartial. While he knew Melko was the discord, he didnt go and throw him through any door. So Eru knows what Melkor will do, and it is part of the Plan, really. Because if he got rid of Melko (which he surely held that power) there would be no need for a Second Music, or Arda Marred, and that would eliminate Mandos' prophecy and the existance for all the Tolkien books. Another thing to think about: With Good vs Evil (i.e. religion of salvation) the scenario is the Creator vs an ally turned Evil (with exception to the fact the evil was always there). But Eru is the creator, and Melko is the Evil. But in no way are they on the same level, for example Melko can not create new things. His real equal (and he is still mightier) is Manwe his brother. Manwe can not create his own things either, because as shown through Aule none of the Valar have access to the Flame Imperishable. And Manwe is the Lord of Arda, and Melko wished to have Arda for his own. Melko had no intention to overthrow Eu, and that is because he cant. Only through Ea could he be equal with Eru, and then still not. So the real struggle is with Manwe, not Eru. So to answer the poll, I say No, because I say the Valar (namely Manwe) are the true Lords of Arda, and because of that there is struggle, but if Eru was the main opposition of Melko, Eru could 'remove' him from Ea, or perhaps remove Ea from him! Eru is not the equivalent of the Christian God, rather it is Manwe, who is the closest thing to it. ________ Yamaha Sy99 Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 10:54 PM. |
02-02-2006, 03:27 PM | #262 | ||||||
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02-03-2006, 05:12 AM | #263 | |||||
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As littlemanpoet wrote: Quote:
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Tolkien managed to merge in his works the ancient truths he found in legends and myths with his Christian faith and I find the result very convincing!
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