Tol-in-Gaurhoth XIV: Nyárë Nauroron Númenoreva

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

My dear Master Saucepan, I fear you missed the point of my plan.

No, I understand now what you were trying to achieve perfectly well. I was simply pointing out that:

a) you can really have no complaint that you were lynched, given your deliberately provocative behaviour; and

b) however close it may have come to succeeding, your plan seems to me to have entailed more risks than benefits.

And, as for your near success, it seems to me that this was primarily attributable to the fact that you nailed a Wolf with your early vote, thus making your attempt to appear as the Seer more credible to the Wolves. But that, you have to admit admit, was pure random luck.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

It didn't work, that's true, and it was an extremely long shot from the beginning, but flawed? I think that's a little harsh.

Well, I probably would have refrained from commenting had you not started out by lauding your great plan and berating us all for lynching you.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Rune's Great and Magnificent Plan:

Well there was none, but one thing I learned was that aperrently my logic is the oposit of everybody els.

1) I thought that most people would vote randomly the first day, but now I know that everybody is wolves who in mysterious but somehow logical ways will try to get a dubble lynch and fraim all the giftet. (all in one day)

2) I thought it would be good for people who would be voting last on the first day to have more than two options, what I did not realise was that the golden rule existet! The Golden Rule: When two people are thave 2 votes each on the first day in werewolf one of the will allways be a wolf.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Holby

I thought the ranger would protect Gurthang

Funny, but I never did consider Gurthang to be the Seer. I was somehow aware all along that he was just trying to...I don't know. Do something.

[Aiwendil]

It seems that while both the Wolves were fooled by Gurthang, all the innocents saw right through him - not that it did us much good.

I did wonder at times whether Formendacil might be a wolf, but the fact that he voted for Spawn before her death was inevitable but after I had voiced suspicion of her kept tripping me up. That seemed like something a wolf just wouldn't do, unless it was a deliberate sacrifice. It was a very daring move - and one that might have been disastrous if they hadn't happened to kill the Seer that night.

Holbytlass, on the other hand, I didn't suspect for a second. Her tactic of going against popular opinion and consistently attacking me worked perfectly.

And to put Lhuna's mind at rest - after thinking about it, I've concluded that the fact that she was unable to come forward and declare herself the Ranger before being lynched did not alter the result of the game. Had she done so, we would have killed Kath - but, finding her innocent, I would have hunted Lhuna that night, thus taking her out instead of Mormegil. So it still would have been 2 wolves, 2 innocents, and the cobbler the next day. So don't fret, Lhuna - and I'm glad to hear you're all right.

And I've forgotten to thank Alcarillio for doing such a great job. Using Numenor as the setting was a great idea.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

And to put Lhuna's mind at rest - after thinking about it, I've concluded that the fact that she was unable to come forward and declare herself the Ranger before being lynched did not alter the result of the game. Had she done so, we would have killed Kath - but, finding her innocent, I would have hunted Lhuna that night, thus taking her out instead of Mormegil. So it still would have been 2 wolves, 2 innocents, and the cobbler the next day. So don't fret, Lhuna - and I'm glad to hear you're all right.

That's sad. I was afraid my first post after Jack's death made it to obvious that I was the Ranger...apparently it didn't. And I was fearing for my life every Night, but it turns out I should have been more afraid during the Day.

Where did I go wrong?

Oh, and thanks.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

a) you can really have no complaint that you were lynched, given your deliberately provocative behaviour

I must have missed the part where I complained about being lynched.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

b) however close it may have come to succeeding, your plan seems to me to have entailed more risks than benefits.

The more risk, the more potential gain.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

And, as for your near success, it seems to me that this was primarily attributable to the fact that you nailed a Wolf with your early vote, thus making your attempt to appear as the Seer more credible to the Wolves.

Exactly as I wanted.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But that, you have to admit admit, was pure random luck.

So? The facts are still the same. So it was exactly as I wanted.

Originally Posted by Lhunadawen

Funny, but I never did consider Gurthang to be the Seer. I was somehow aware all along that he was just trying to...I don't know. Do something.

Exactly as I wanted.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

It seems that while both the Wolves were fooled by Gurthang, all the innocents saw right through him - not that it did us much good.

Again, exactly as I wanted.

Although I do fail to see the point in me explaining it. I'm sure your mind will not be drawn away from the idea that my plan was stupid. Sort of like when you're convinced someone's a wolf. Whatever they do, it makes them look more guilty.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

I must have missed the part where I complained about being lynched.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Down to the depths with all of you.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

I had Fordim down as the Cobbler, and, oh, he is! and Formendacil-wolf was then on my list. I find it very ironic that I voted for a wolf on the first day and got lynched for it. Yes, you got what you all deserved.

Tongue-in-cheek your comments may have been, but I kinda got the impression that you were rather sore at being lynched and felt that we acted unreasonably in lynching you. I was merely explaining that, in the position we were in, it was reasonable for us to suspect you sufficiently to lynch you.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

So? The facts are still the same. So it was exactly as I wanted.

You miss my point. You may have wanted your vote to have been for a Wolf, but it was pure chance that it was, given that Formendacil had not even posted and there was nothing to go on whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

The more risk, the more potential gain.

Fair point. I suported the double lynching on much the same theory. It is not your plan itself which I object to, but your ex post facto presentation of it as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

It could have worked (just like the double lynching), but the fact remains that it did not.

Although I do fail to see the point in me explaining it. I'm sure your mind will not be drawn away from the idea that my plan was stupid. Sort of like when you're convinced someone's a wolf. Whatever they do, it makes them look more guilty.

Ah, but Gurthang, we are carrying on the noble tradition of innocents squabbling while the Wolves look on in silent amusement.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You miss my point. You may have wanted your vote to have been for a Wolf, but it was pure chance that it was, given that Formendacil had not even posted and there was nothing to go on whatsoever.

Yes, yes, it was what I wanted and it was a blind chance. Both true and both parts completely realized.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Tongue-in-cheek your comments may have been, but I kinda got the impression that you were rather sore at being lynched and felt that we acted unreasonably in lynching you. I was merely explaining that, in the position we were in, it was reasonable for us to suspect you sufficiently to lynch you.

Well, I was actually a little sore about the lynching. Yet it was not the fact that I got lynched that bothered me. It was that everyone was saying 'Gurthang's acting so much like the cobbler, let's lynch him'. It's very good and entirely the point to lynch a wolf, but the cobbler is accounted with the innocents, even though he is not for them. It doesn't make sense to me to lynch the cobbler, sort of like saying let's just get rid of this unhelpful innocent.

Oh, and you're probably right that I'm overhyping my little ploy. (Though it would have been the best since sliced bread had it worked.) It was so close, but it is true it did not work, and don't worry; I don't plan on trying it again anytime soon, if ever.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Well, I was actually a little sore about the lynching. Yet it was not the fact that I got lynched that bothered me. It was that everyone was saying 'Gurthang's acting so much like the cobbler, let's lynch him'. It's very good and entirely the point to lynch a wolf, but the cobbler is accounted with the innocents, even though he is not for them. It doesn't make sense to me to lynch the cobbler, sort of like saying let's just get rid of this unhelpful innocent.

I'm all for lynching actual wolves, but if there is doubt and confusion and I don't really have any good idea who a wolf is and I strongly suspect somebody to be a cobbler; I will lynch the cobbler.

The reason being is that he's on the wolves team and aids them, which makes him a detriment to the village. Case in point is this game. What if Fordim had been lynched instead of you so you were left at the end. It would have been 3 innocents to 2 wolves, thus giving the village a chance. The way it turned out the village really had no chance because of the cobbler. The cobbler is a secondary kill to wolves but a good kill nonetheless.

[The Only Real Estel]

I wasn’t able to keep up with this game quite as well as I wanted to, but I did have at least fleeting suspicion of Mormegil when he said this: (I’m not sure if it was brought up in the game or not)

Saucepan, you give me far too much credit. My ineptitude at influencing people should be widely known by now. Also only a suicidal wolf would try and match wits with you and m neither no wolf nor one with wits to rival youthink my own mediocrity clears me of this charge.

“Neither no wolf” means that he is...not not a wolf? Which would make him...a wolf? “nor one with wits to rival you” meaning...that he could be a wolf, just not one with wits to rival SpM (and no wolf would claim the wits to rival SpM anyway, except maybe the phantom). Although a confusing statement, it sounded a lot to me like a wolf who doesn’t like to outright lie in the WW games, so he instead resorted to a confusing statement that, in fact, refuted nothing while making it seem that he did. Very confusing, but I actually thought I had hit upon something there.

I had discussed that suspicion with Gurthang, who countered with his theory that Formendacil was a wolf & Fordim was the Cobbler...I still think mine was better.

Posted by Fordim:

It was a lot of fun being the cobbler but talk about a difficult job. Not only was I trying to identify two very crafty wolves I then had to try and hide that I was identifying them.

Tell me about it! It’s hard enough to discern wolves, but then you have to not cast suspicion on them or, in some cases, backtrack to try to un-do some of your suspicion casting. A very hard role, and especially if you elect to try to stick around until the end.

I really enjoyed Fordim’s game (and hopefully I’ll have some time that I can use to go over it more), partially because it reminded me a lot of my own, only much better. Not only did he seem to do a better job confusing people, but he didn’t support either of the wolves nearly as strongly as I was forced to support Eomer in WW7.

Whereas I committed too early and couldn’t back off without looking suspicious (and, after being lynched and found to be the Cobbler, dooming the final wolf), Fordim seemed (from what I read) to do a good job of never really getting sucked into defending the wolves. Of course it may have helped that Formen & Holby weren’t at the top of the collective suspicion list much.

Anyways, good game all – and good modding as well.

[mormegil]

“Neither no wolf” means that he is...not not a wolf? Which would make him...a wolf? “nor one with wits to rival you” meaning...that he could be a wolf, just not one with wits to rival SpM (and no wolf would claim the wits to rival SpM anyway, except maybe the phantom). Although a confusing statement, it sounded a lot to me like a wolf who doesn’t like to outright lie in the WW games, so he instead resorted to a confusing statement that, in fact, refuted nothing while making it seem that he did. Very confusing, but I actually thought I had hit upon something there.

Well TORE if that is the correct quote I must assign myself to Mordor. I abhor double negatives and would never intentionally use them. Between you and Kath I'm beginning to look rather Hillbillyish.