Feanor's presence in Cirith Ungol - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 02-18-2003, 05:48 AM

This struck me. Why is there such a srong presence of Feanor there - There is the light from the glass, the light of the Silmaril borne by Earendel, but there's also the Ring - the inscription is in the Tengwar of Feanor. Is this just a coincidence?. The two symbols, of good & of evil, which Frodo carries, have such strong links with Feanor. His works are used by both Galadriel & Sauron, & they both end up in the hands of Frodo in that moment. Is Tolkien making a point, or am I reading too much into it?

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-18-2003, 08:54 AM

Reading too much into it.

It's just plain co-incidence.

littlemanpoet · 02-18-2003, 09:10 AM

The Light is more significant than the derivation from Feanor, and in any case, Feanor got it from the Trees, so this could just as much be about the Trees as about Feanor. It does, however, point to the historical significance of Feanor within the whole mythos.

Manwe Sulimo · 02-18-2003, 09:50 AM

Wait...but is it in the Tengwar? I don't claim to be a linguist, but I thought that the Tengwar was the written style in the appendices. Unless you meant Fëanorian script. Although I'm not sure what the inscription on the One was written in....

elven maiden Earwen · 02-18-2003, 09:56 AM

In the book it says its the balck speech of Mordor. So how can it be Tengwar?

davem · 02-18-2003, 09:57 AM

Surely its about the SPECIFIC light of the Silmaril, the hallowed light of the Holy Jewel. And isn't there a link between the Trees & Shelob, as last child of Ungoliant who slew the trees.
I don't think its just about light, ie that ANY light would do - why would Galadriel give Frodo light from the Silmaril specifically?
Or is the Phial Galadriel's 'Silmaril'- making her equivalent to Feanor in a way. Is her ability to hand over her 'silmaril' being contrasted to Feanor's inability to hand over his when requested by Varda?

Aiwendil · 02-18-2003, 10:28 AM

Manwe Sulimo:

Quote:

Wait...but is it in the Tengwar? I don't claim to be a linguist, but I thought that the Tengwar was the written style in the appendices. Unless you meant Fëanorian script. Although I'm not sure what the inscription on the One was written in....

Earwen:

Quote:

In the book it says its the balck speech of Mordor. So how can it be Tengwar?

The Feanorian script is Tengwar. It was invented by Feanor in Aman and superceded the alphabet of Rumil (which might also be called tengwar (literally "letters")).

The Ring inscription was indeed in the Black Speech, but it was spelled in Tengwar, just as English, Spanish, German, and many other languages are all spelled with the Phoenician alphabet.

Davem:

Quote:

And isn't there a link between the Trees & Shelob, as last child of Ungoliant who slew the trees.

I definitely think so. Also, recall that Ungoliant desired to consume the Silmarils but that Melkor wouldn't allow her to.

davem · 02-18-2003, 10:31 AM

Sorry Earwen, missed your post. The language is Black speech, but the alphabet ('its some kind of elvish') is the Tengwar of Feanor.

Angry Hill Troll · 02-18-2003, 11:29 AM

Quote:

is the Phial Galadriel's 'Silmaril'- making her equivalent to Feanor in a way.

Sort of, but really it's more the converse. Quote from UT

Quote:

the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses. Many thought that this saying first gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinfolk, the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

Hmmm, was the phial filled with water from the last time Galadriel washed her hair? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Certainly there are a lot of references to the Silmarils here:

-Shelob (Ungoliant's offspring)
-The mission to defeat Sauron (Morgoth's ex-protege)
-Galadriel's phial
-Sam and Frodo recounting Lúthien and Beren's quest
-Sam seeing the Star (Eärendil?)

I don't think Fëanor was really there in spirit, though if he heard about it later in Mandos, he probably would have been happy, not being himself a big fan of either Dark Lords or spiders. Well, maybe he would have been a bit chagrined at Gimli getting a lock of Galadriel's hair "What?! She gave a lock of hair to a dwarf but not her own uncle!" [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

02-18-2003, 05:48 AM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Feanor's presence in Cirith Ungol This struck me. Why is there such a srong presence of Feanor there - There is the light from the glass, the light of the Silmaril borne by Earendel, but there's also the Ring - the inscription is in the Tengwar of Feanor. Is this just a coincidence?. The two symbols, of good & of evil, which Frodo carries, have such strong links with Feanor. His works are used by both Galadriel & Sauron, & they both end up in the hands of Frodo in that moment. Is Tolkien making a point, or am I reading too much into it? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

02-18-2003, 08:54 AM	#2
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Reading too much into it. It's just plain co-incidence. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-18-2003, 09:50 AM	#4
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Wait...but is it in the Tengwar? I don't claim to be a linguist, but I thought that the Tengwar was the written style in the appendices. Unless you meant Fëanorian script. Although I'm not sure what the inscription on the One was written in.... __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

02-18-2003, 09:56 AM	#5
elven maiden Earwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A world that never was and never will be Posts: 1,300	In the book it says its the balck speech of Mordor. So how can it be Tengwar? __________________ We pillage and plunder, we rifle and loot, Drink up me hearties, Yo Ho. the looniest site in the world!!!

02-18-2003, 09:57 AM	#6
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Surely its about the SPECIFIC light of the Silmaril, the hallowed light of the Holy Jewel. And isn't there a link between the Trees & Shelob, as last child of Ungoliant who slew the trees. I don't think its just about light, ie that ANY light would do - why would Galadriel give Frodo light from the Silmaril specifically? Or is the Phial Galadriel's 'Silmaril'- making her equivalent to Feanor in a way. Is her ability to hand over her 'silmaril' being contrasted to Feanor's inability to hand over his when requested by Varda? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

02-18-2003, 09:10 AM	#3
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	The Light is more significant than the derivation from Feanor, and in any case, Feanor got it from the Trees, so this could just as much be about the Trees as about Feanor. It does, however, point to the historical significance of Feanor within the whole mythos.

02-18-2003, 10:31 AM	#8
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Sorry Earwen, missed your post. The language is Black speech, but the alphabet ('its some kind of elvish') is the Tengwar of Feanor. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."