Tol-in-Gaurhoth XIII: Enter Shamville

[Lalaith]

I'm not being funny or anything wilwa, and I'm sorry to be so suspicious, truly I am.
But can I just say that if it so happens that wilwa is not the seer, could the real seer please refrain from revealing themselves?

[Glirdan]

AHHH!!!! See, I missed that, that means I have to do an analysis of them. Thanks for pointing that out.

Anguriel: Well, I've suspected him a little yesterday. Voted for Menel because he wanted to test his theory. Worth watching.

Celuien: Haven't suspected yet. Voted for Menel to help Ang test his theory. Worth watching, but not to suspicious.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I'm not being funny or anything wilwa, and I'm sorry to be so suspicious, truly I am.
But can I just say that if it so happens that wilwa is not the seer, could the real seer please refrain from revealing themselves?

Though I do believe Wilwa may be the seer even if she's not I highly doubt she is a wolf. I feel prepares if not the seer she is possibly pulling a Fea thing and saying she is when in truth she is the ranger/hunter. I feel though she is innocent now.

If Wilwa is not the seer I still think Wayne may be a wolf. Judging by his response to her claim.

[littlemanpoet]

If Wilwa is not the seer, then the real seer absolutely must step forward and say so. If no-one comes forward to contest Wilwa's claim, then we may consider the matter wrapped up. Wayne is therefore a werewolf, which surprises none of us.

Wilwa, it's important that you name who the innocents were that you dreamed of. Known innocents are an important way for the innocent villagers to keep the werewolves in reaction mode. I note that yesterDay you defended the following: LMP, Firefoot, Anguirel, Kitanna. Please tell us who the innocents are.

Glirdan, your tally is incorrect.

The order of vote:
1. Glirdan : Lalaith (1)
2. Kitanna: Wilwa (1)
3. Firefoot: Menel (1)
4. Lalaith: Wilwa (2)
5. tar ancalime: LMP (1)
6. LMP: Wilwa (3)
7. Celuien: Menel (2)
8. Anguirel: Menel (3)
9. Menel: LMP (2)
10. Eonwe: Menel (4)
11. Kath: Menel (5)
12. Wayne: Wilwa (4)
Wilwa did not vote. Quite a smart thing, considering.

Wayne had cross-posted with Kath, and didn't know that Menel had already been given a 5th vote; quite a cynical thing to try to cause a double-lynching of two people we now know to be innocent; this condemns Wayne doubly.

So I think that in our voting on Day 2, every one of us voted for an innocent. Not good. But now we can rectify that. I'm not sure that yesterDay's voting is going to help us much at all in determing who the werewolves are.

One thing is certain, the Ranger needs to guard Wilwa tonight.

[Glirdan]

If Wilwa is not the seer I still Wayne may be a wolf. Judging by his response to her claim.

I most certainly agree with this. I definetly think Wayne is a Wolf, especially after that overdefensive post and vote for Wilwa. I say Wilwa is innocent and Wayne's a Wolf.

[Firefoot]

Here's the real voting:

Lalaith – 1 (Glirdan 1)
Wilwa – 4 (Kitanna 2, Lalaith 4, LMP 6, Wayne 12)
Menel - 5 (Firefoot 3, Celuien 7, Ang 8, Eonwe 10, Kath 11)
LMP – 2 (tar 5, Menel 9)

Did not vote: Wilwa

Now wait just a second, Wilwa. I am now strongly suspicious of you - in fact, I would bet right now that you're a wolf trying to save yourself a lynching. There is someone else who I strongly believe to be the Seer (and I'm not going to say any more about that except that I've felt strongly this way since early yesterDay), and your selection of Wayne to be a wolf is entirely too convenient. Besides, a real seer wouldn't come out and say it like that, not if they were smart (and I know you're smart, Wilwa) - they would try to nudge the voting in that direction and only come out in the open if they actually started acumulating votes, so that they could continue in anonymity and hopefully catch another wolf in the following nights. I find your refusal to state who the innocents are that you've dreamed of a mite bit suspicious as well, though being that we still have a Ranger it might make sense to hold that until tomorrow. How Wilwa is acting is not how a Seer should act at all.

The not being sad enough part was what through me off really.

Sorry, that was a typo. It should say said.

[Firefoot]

Sorry for the double post, but I had to say this:

In response to LMP's post: No, the real seer should not come out just yet (if Wilwa isn't). That would be the whole point if Wilwa was a wolf - to get the real Seer to say so. Since Wilwa was on the out anyway, it wouldn't be that great of a risk. Instead, let Wilwa say who her innocents are and what their occupations are - hopefully, she'd be wrong. This reeks of a wolvish plot.

Even though I was extremely suspicious of Wayne for his desire for a double vote, I think that he may be the innocent one in this.

[Lalaith]

No LMP, I disagree.
Look at the scenario.
Ok, so we lynch wayne today. If he's innocent, we know wilwa is lying.
If he's a wolf, and wilwa is still alive the day after the following night,(ie when the ranger can't protect her anymore) we also know wilwa is lying.

This is why I didn't want the seer to come forward if wilwa happened to be fibbing. There's no need for the seer to reveal themselves because the truth would out anyway.

edit: double post with firefoot

[wilwarin538]

Did not vote: Wilwa

Now wait just a second, Wilwa. I am now strongly suspicious of you - in fact, I would bet right now that you're a wolf trying to save yourself a lynching. There is someone else who I strongly believe to be the Seer (and I'm not going to say any more about that except that I've felt strongly this way since early yesterDay), and your selection of Wayne to be a wolf is entirely too convenient. Besides, a real seer wouldn't come out and say it like that, not if they were smart (and I know you're smart, Wilwa) - they would try to nudge the voting in that direction and only come out in the open if they actually started acumulating votes, so that they could continue in anonymity and hopefully catch another wolf in the following nights. I find your refusal to state who the innocents are that you've dreamed of a mite bit suspicious as well, though being that we still have a Ranger it might make sense to hold that until tomorrow. How Wilwa is acting is not how a Seer should act at all.

Wow, ouch.

I made a choice that I thought made sense. I know who a wolf is. That is valuble information for you guys.

You want proof?

I dreamt of you last night Firefoot, you are an Ordinary Villager.

Now do you believe me?

crossposted with Lalaith

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Even though I was extremely suspicious of Wayne for his desire for a double vote, I think that he may be the innocent one in this.

I must disagree. You of course make good points against Wilwa as seer, but I still think she is innocent. You say her fashion of coming out as the seer is not something a real seer would do and that it is rather stupid and Wilwa is not stupid. Wilwa isn't stupid by a longshot of course which is what makes me think she is still innocent despite her role.

Her coming out as seer is a very foolish move if she's a wolf and Wilwa should know that. Doing something like that draws so much attention and then when her "wolf" is lynched and proved innocent everyone knows, the real seer has probably dreamt of her and is going to rat her out and the seer-wolf loses and a good chance comes about that the team will be discovered and they would lose. The wolves don't want that. Wilwa as a wolf and saying she is the seer seems far too stupid a plan for the wolves to try to establish.

In any case out of the two I find Wilwa more innocent than Wayne. And we should probably vote for one or the other today.

[Glirdan]

No Firefoot, I think Wilwa's timing of revealing herself is actually quite good. It makes sense for her to come out after all the votes she accumulated yesterDay. And I'm pretty sure she would have revealed herself sooner if she had the chance (time zone differences). I'm pretty sure she's the Seer, but if not, she's pulling a Fea and she's the Ranger/Hunter. If she's not the Seer, which I doubt, then the real Seer needs to remain hidden.

[Firefoot]

Well, I will concede to being an Ordo... it makes me feel slightly better, but not terribly so. After all, of the eight remaining villagers, five are Ordos, so it could have been lucky.

If you really are the Seer, I'm sorry, but I can't help but be suspicious right now. I'm really not sure what to think - I was about 98% confident that someone else was the Seer.

Sorry, this is all very disjointed as the thoughts are flying in my head. Another thing that I did not say was that if Wilwa was a wolf, we would now all be concentrating on her ruse and not looking for other wolves.

And yes, Wayne's response is suspicious but it's about what I'd expect from him. Really, if he was innocent and that happened, looking at how he's posted throughout the game... would any of you expect anything else? Honestly? He really does seem like too convenient of a target for a pseudo-seer.

Must think...

[Firefoot]

In response to Kitanna: there are a total of eight villagers left, three wolves. IF Wilwa was a wolf and we followed through and did what she said (that is, vote out Wayne), and found out he was innocent, by the time we got around to lynching her, the next Day after that the count would be down to 5-2. Considering that Wilwa was a primary target for lynching, it would make some sense. It would also remove the Ranger from the picture for a night, so the wolves would be guaranteed that kill.

It may be that I'm weighing Wilwa's style of playing Seer (if she is the seer) too much against how I would play it in her situation. I could be entirely wrong, but the whole thing feels very suspect to me.

[Lalaith]

would also remove the Ranger from the picture for a night,

well it wouldn't do that, Firefoot, if we lynched Wayne and found out he was innocent. The Ranger wouldn't protect wilwa in that scenario.

[Celuien]

Ah. Now here's a turn of events.

I see no reason not to vote for Wayne today. The only reason I'm not voting now is that I want debate to continue as long as possible. As has been pointed out, if he turns out to be innocent, Wilwa is a wolf. Either way, we've reduced the wolf count by one.

Honestly, I tend to believe what wilwa says. Because she was nearly lynched yesterday, this could well have been the last chance to reveal her dreams. If I were the Seer, I would have done the same thing rather than chancing going to my death without identifying a known wolf.

As to the 5-2 count, I'm willing to chance it to get another dream tonight if wilwa is the true Seer. Tomorrow we would have at least 10-2 with at least one known innocent, maybe two. With the 5-2 count given by a wolf-Wilwa, we would at least have given the true Seer a few more nights to dream and taken out one wolf in the process.

I only wish that Wayne would have been a little more vocal so that we could have found something to discover the other wolves. The only clue I have is their kill choices, which I'll have to think about today.

I doubt I was a dream, but if I was, wilwa, feel free to confirm my innocence.

[Glirdan]

I think it's time for us to start looking at the person Menel voted for, Lmp. He's been under some suspicion, enough suspicion to get to votes. I say it's time to conduct a thorough search of those who've been voted for by the four dead (may you all rest in peace and wreak your revenge once those Wolves get down underground with us!!). I'll be back and say what I've come up with.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

well it wouldn't do that, Firefoot, if we lynched Wayne and found out he was innocent. The Ranger wouldn't protect wilwa in that scenario.

True. The only scenario when the Ranger would be out of the picture would be if wilwa and Wayne are both wolves and wilwa is giving him up to appear to be the true Seer.

[Lalaith]

Yes, exactly, Celuien. To kind of repeat myself again, we've got three possibilities here.
1. Wilwa is telling the truth. We kill Wayne today, he is a wolf, ranger protects wilwa tonight, we vote on who to dream of, and she tells us her dream tomorrow.
2. Wilwa is lying. We kill Wayne today, he is innocent. Ranger protects someone else. We kill Wilwa tomorrow.
3. Wilwa is lying. We kill Wayne today, he is guilty. This is the trickiest of the possibilities. But still ok. If wilwa is still alive the day after tomorrow, we will have two wolves in the bag, even if we accidentally lynch an innocent tomorrow the villager/wolf ratio will be 5-1 if we kill wilwa the day after.

Again, wilwa, I'm really sorry to seem so mean and churlish if you really are a brave seer coming out to help save us. But I think suspicion is for the best in the long run. And I agree with those who say you should say who you have dreamt of.

[Lalaith]

I'm going to bed now. It's a bit boring I know, but I can't think of a better idea than to lynch Wayne toDay and see what happens.
But everyone else, feel free to concoct cunning plans in my absence.

Glirdan, there's no point spreading votes around that I can see. The remaining wolves will vote for Wayne now, I expect, but so will most of the rest of us, so it won't tell us much.

[Glirdan]

Lmp was the one that raised the question and debate of whether or not we should have a leader. If he was a Wolf, it got the results he wanted, people talking about his plan and not him. But the question is, would a Wolf do something like this so early on? And Lmp isn't that supid to do something like that. Or would he do something like that to fool us? It would also explain why they chose to attack Kuru and Kath. They were to smart for their own good and, if I'm right, they didn't suspect Lmp a whole lot. So they were perfect choices for him.

So, what do you all think about the one of the smartest people amongst us? Is he innocent, or does he have a furry little secret?

[Glirdan]

Glirdan, there's no point spreading votes around that I can see. The remaining wolves will vote for Wayne now, I expect, but so will most of the rest of us, so it won't tell us much.

You have a point there Lalaith, so I might as well vote for him now and be done with it. Yet that doesn't mean I'll be leaving just yet. Oh no it doesn't. I'll still be around for ahile yet.

++WaynetheGoblin who's really a Wolf

[littlemanpoet]

Hypothesis:

Wilwa is seer (surprising everybody)
Wayne is a werewolf (surprising nobody)
Firefoot is a known innocent (surprising nobody)

The following have already shown today by their in depth attempts at deciphering the latest information that they are very likely innocent:
Celuien
Kitanna
Lalaith
LMP (look, I have to include myself since it's an hypothesis, and I know I'm innocent, regardless of what the rest of you think)

There is one person that has been recommending that which seems rather counter-productive to me, namely (1) looking at yesterDay's votes to figure out who the werewolves are, and (2) spreading out the votes; I still think that no werewolves were voted for yesterDay. That counter-productive individual is Glirdan. Take note. I say this individual is a prime suspect for werewolf #2.

That leaves the following, amongst whom there is the third werewolf:
Anguirel
Eonwe
tar ancalime

Of these three, Anguirel seems least likely to be a werewolf; Eonwe could be playing innocent with his "please help me" routine, although that could be honest trouble he's having. I'm 50/50 about tar ancalime, who of these three is playing the most subtle, intelligent game, is she's a werewolf. I think these three need to get a serious look.

I recommend that Wilwa, if truly the seer, dream of Glirdan toNight. If she's not the seer, then let the actual seer dream of Glirdan. I'm quite interested to get a response and agreement or disagreement on this. Oh, and if I'm way off and Glirdan is the seer, which I doubt, then he ought to dream of Eonwe or tar ancalime; but I doubt that scenario holds true at all, just trying to cover all the bases of this hypothesis.

Which reminds me to mention one more thing: since I'm an ordinary innocent (you'll just have to make up your mind whether to believe me or not), please don't waste your dream on me, seer.

[Firefoot]

All right, I'm still not 100% convinced that Wilwa is innocent, but I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for now. I wish I could shake the feeling that we're walking into a trap, that this is exactly what the wolves wanted... in fact, if she is a wolf, I'd say this would be a brilliant move by the wolves, as it rather forces our hand. Either we have to reveal the true seer or we are forced to vote for an innocent before voting for a wolf that was on the way out anyway.

Wilwa, I'll feel really bad if you really are the Seer. And whether she is or is not, I think I probably just got myself killed by wolves tonight - especially if she is.

On to other things... I'm going to stop looking at Wilwa and Wayne for a while and work on other people. Unless someone says something that I have to respond to, I will be focusing wholly on other possible suspects in my next post.

Edit: cross-posting with LMP, looks like a sound post to me...

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Lmp was the one that raised the question and debate of whether or not we should have a leader. If he was a Wolf, it got the results he wanted, people talking about his plan and not him. But the question is, would a Wolf do something like this so early on? And Lmp isn't that supid to do something like that. Or would he do something like that to fool us? It would also explain why they chose to attack Kuru and Kath. They were to smart for their own good and, if I'm right, they didn't suspect Lmp a whole lot. So they were perfect choices for him.

So, what do you all think about the one of the smartest people amongst us? Is he innocent, or does he have a furry little secret?

Personally, I still tend toward trusting lmp. He is definitely smart enough to appear completely innocent during the day while terrorizing Shamville at night.

I think it's best to settle the controversy once and for all. As a confirmed innocent, his brilliant strategizing would be of enormous benefit to the village. And if he is a wolf () and has fooled me with his treachery, we need to know. So, Wilwa - please dream of lmp tonight (I'm assuming he was not the dream from two nights ago).

The analysis of Kuru and Kath's deaths seems spot on. They were both intelligent villagers who left little trail and for that reason perfect choices for the wolves. Therefore, I'm sure there's a mastermind in the wolvish trio. Firefoot is cleared by wilwa, whether a wolf or not (even if the wilwa-wolf theory is true, a wolf would know that she is innocent and could use the knowledge to try to gain Firefoot's trust). I'm willing to clear Ang on the basis of my own analysis unless something drastic happens. That leaves tar-ancalime, Kitanna, Lalaith, and, actually, you Glirdan, for the main possibilities, as all have shown excellent strategy/analysis skills to date.

And there's no point really to spreading votes. Granted, we're not going to learn much from voting patterns today, but that's not going to happen anyway since Lalaith is correct that the wolves will most likely vote for Wayne to avoid appearing to defend him. Spreading votes won't uncover them. As for those of us who are non-lupine, I'd just feel strange voting for a possible innocent with a possible known wolf right in front of us, especially when that vote wouldn't serve any purpose for gathering information anyway. Better to help guarantee lynching a werewolf.

EDIT: cross posted with lmp, Firefoot and Glirdan. On second thought, while I would like to settle the controversy surrounding the undertaker for the remaining villagers who suspect him, there's something to be said for a Glirdan dream. And so, I'll change my vote to go along with that plan, since at this point, I believe with about as much certainty as a non-Seer can have that lmp is not a wolf.

[Glirdan]

That leaves tar-ancalime, Kitanna, Lalaith, and, actually, you Glirdan, for the main possibilities, as all have shown excellent strategy/analysis skills to date.

I agree with you that there has to be a mastermind behind it and yes, all of us have shown tallent, I'm not denying that. But now we have to add you in there to, don't we? You've had a lot of good theories going around. So there's a chance that you could be a Wolf. But I'm pretty sure that you are innocent and that either Lalaith or Lmp or both are a Wolf. That's why I don't trust them and they are at the top of my suspect list. I'm definetly watching them.

[Kitanna]

I am going to go on and trust Wilwa.

++ Wayne

I had suspected him in my posts from yesterday and today (one I cross-posted with Wilwa). Wilwa's coming out as seer only makes me suspect him more. If we're wrong and Wayne is lynched as an innocent the Ranger will have to think hard on who to protect. But then tomorrow we clearly cast stones to Wilwa. But if Wilwa is right and hopefully that will remove doubt, the ranger will probably need no prompting in protecting her and she can let us know tomorrow who she dreamt of.
We may lose a villager if we're wrong about Wilwa, but we have a wolf. And if we're right we kill a wolf. So in either case we bring the wolf count down to 2.

[Eonwe]

well ill jump in here. sorry im a bit late. i was going to post earilier but got interupted. rather rudely, i might add. anyway...

haveing not read all the posts, i am quite intregued. there a few possible senarios that arrise from the wilwa=seer idea. which im not 100% sold on, by the way.

normally, i would say: "wolf? a wolf would never be so foolish to do something like that. innocent? she's not fea, you know. seer? must be." but given teh rather close shave she had with the noose last evening, that on longer holds true. ok three senarios.

wilwa is a wolf:

wilwa as a wolf could do us great damage. first she could be hoping to take down an innocent with her. actually this would accomplish two things. the other being to render our vote useless as a record tomarrow, because all the votes would be assumed to be for wilwa. cuz we would know she is a wolf after lynching a supposed innocnet wayne. the other thing would be flushing out the seer. the only way to prove that she isn't the seer is for teh real seer to come out. (actually, only the hypothetically real seer adn wayne know if she is telling the truth, just realized that.) i think that is a rather sever amount of damage deal for one wolf kill.

wilwa is the seer:

could be. she could have seen how close she got to death yesterday and freaked out (i know all about that .) she has one know wolf that she would want to get recognized. not only that, she has one dream left (possibley two, though that is playing a dangerous game there ranger!). not a bad haul for a seer.

wilwa is innocent:

umm. you better not be .

Originally Posted by wilwa

You want proof?

I dreamt of you last night Firefoot, you are an Ordinary Villager.

Now do you believe me?

no. that does nothing to assuage my doubts. you know who everone is if you are a wolf. although now that i think of it it kind of does, a bit, cuz you would be playing a desparate game saying that directly to a fellow wolf.

here's some stuff about wayne:

if wilwa is the seer, wayne must be a wolf. if wilwa is infact a wolf, there are two differnt lines of logic she could choose:

pick a wolf, so when we lynch her, we will trust her. this is doubtful, cuz the idea isn't to have us trust her, its just to have us trust her for a day. the wolf sacrafise would be a long-run option.

pick an innocent to bring down with her. not a bad idea.

so as for what im thinking overall, i don't think we should lynch wayne. that would be kind of counter productive, becasue we have a huge bullseye on his head if wilwa is the seer, and we have a known innocent if she's a wolf.

more next time...

edited mixed some stuff up. sorry.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I agree with you that there has to be a mastermind behind it and yes, all of us have shown tallent, I'm not denying that. But now we have to add you in there to, don't we? You've had a lot of good theories going around. So there's a chance that you could be a Wolf. But I'm pretty sure that you are innocent and that either Lalaith or Lmp or both are a Wolf. That's why I don't trust them and they are at the top of my suspect list. I'm definetly watching them.

Heh, I'm flattered. But I suppose I should be there for everyone else's list of possibilities. I just didn't include myself on my own suspect list.

[Eonwe]

Originally Posted by lmp

Eonwe could be playing innocent with his "please help me" routine, although that could be honest trouble he's having.

misunderstood again! just say what you why do think something clearly, that way i don't have to ask about it, be suspcious about it, or fall into a timezone-type dispute, thereby throwing everyone off-track. all i want is facts and reasons. clarity is golden. i say this every game, because it makes sense.

oh and ps. what we should really be thinking here is if a wolfwilwa woudl think the evidense accruded against her yesterday was sufficient for peole to bring her up again today. which would lead her to the desparate stratay of impersenating teh seer.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

here's some stuff about wayne:

if wilwa is the seer, wayne must be a wolf. if wilwa is the seer, there are two differnt lines of logic she could choose:

pick a wolf, so when we lynch her, we will trust her. this is doubtful, cuz the idea isn't to have us trust her, its just to have us trust her for a day. the wolf sacrafise would be a long-run option.

pick an innocent to bring down with her. not a bad idea.

so as for what im thinking overall, i don't think we should lynch wayne. that would be kind of counter productive, becasue we have a huge bullseye on his head if wilwa is the seer, and we have a known innocent if she's a wolf.

more next time...

Now, that's peculiar. Further judgment reserved until the promised "more next time" hopefully provides more explaination.

[wilwarin538]

no. that does nothing to assuage my doubts. you know who everone is if you are a wolf. although now that i think of it it kind of does, a bit, cuz you would be playing a desparate game saying that directly to a fellow wolf.

I was saying that directely to Firefoot. She obviously knows she's an ordianry villager. If I was lying, and I had just said she was an ord as a guess, that could have completely blown my ruse as the seer. She could have easily been a ranger or hunter. Then she would have known I was lying since I corrisponded her with the wrong role. The chances of me guessing that she is an ord, and her actaully being an ord is slim. I'm surprised she still has doubts.

But it is understandable. Im probably doing one of the worst jobs as seer ever.

I have to go to sleep now. I'll be back an hour before voting is closed.

I'm still not sure who to dream of. I'm debating between Lalaith and LMP.

[Glirdan]

Heh, I'm flattered.

You should be flattered friend, you are a very smart individual. That's why I suspect you, yet not as much as some others.

As for Wilwa (or the Seer) dreaming of me tonight, go right ahead and dream about me. But you'll be wasting a dream. I honestly think we should be putting that dream towards Lalaith, the one person no one is certain of. She has been accused quite a bit, or has been on people's suspicion list.

[Eonwe]

welllll, i guess that does make sense wilwa. hadn't thought about the gifted aspect. sigh...all that theororizing for nothing... though i will have to rethink it through.

ok rethought it, and it doens't quite clear you. firefoot could be a wolf. but that is doubtful. and you could concievebly have gotten lucky. i say that because there would be some reason to guess like that if you were a wolf, seeing as you have a day, two if your lucky, to live (going off you being a wolf that is). *long sigh*

Celuien, i guessing that your question is about the seer lines of logic? i mixed tehm up. the second seer should read wolf.

edited: finally touches.

[tar-ancalime]

++ Wayne


I really think we have to take Wilwa's claim at face value. Believe her, don't believe her, think what you like; we'll know soon enough, and it makes sense for us to act as though she's telling the truth.

Here's why:

She needs to reveal her dreams to us. Having stated that she dreamed of innocents, even if she's lying she'll produce two known innocents (one already being Firefoot, of course) to bolster her credibility. This information, whatever its provenance, is immensely useful to us.

(The opposite possibility, that wilwa is herself a wolf and that the "innocents" she'll produce for us are her comrades-in-paws, is frightening but there isn't really anything we can do about it. And as I mentioned above, we'll know soon enough. Lynching Wayne will tell us plenty.)

But if Wilwa really is the Seer, we are in a very good position indeed: we can stop venting our collective spleens on whomever she has already dreamed of, we pick off a wolf tonight, and (presuming the Ranger's protection) we get at least one more dream.

All three Gifteds can profit from the information Wilwa can give us: the Ranger can play peek-a-boo with the wolves for at least a few days among the three known innocents, the Seer (wilwa) gets protected long enough to dream one more time, and the Hunter has his/her pool of potential targets narrowed considerably.

Even if we're totally convinced wilwa is lying, we've got to behave as though she really is the Seer. The truth will out, and we will have bought the real Seer precious time.

I feel very strongly that even debating wilwa's veracity is beside the point. No matter who or what she really is, it can only help us to take her advice for at least one DAY and lynch Wayne.

I suggest we follow Firefoot's lead, table this issue, and spend the rest of the DAY discussing the other suspect.

[tar-ancalime]

Oops! Last line of my previous post should read "the other suspects."

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Celuien, i guessing that your question is about the seer lines of logic? i mixed tehm up. the second seer should read wolf.

That was the question, in addition to disagreeing that lynching Wayne is counterproductive. The best way to test Wilwa's veracity and hopefully get rid of a wolf is to lynch Wayne.

I didn't see a Wayne post.

I just thought of something. LMP is the only one so far to have asked NOT to be dreamt about. So far, it doesn't change my opinion of him, but it could be taken as an indication of guilt. I don't know what to think. I'll trust in Wilwa's judgment.

Finally, I need to go to sleep, so I'll be leaving soon. I'll try to get back in the morning to continue the discussion, but in case I don't, I want to make sure my vote goes to

++WAYNE

[WaynetheGoblin]

I did not post anything. Well im dead i probebly wont win either but i guess i had fun actually not really butit was a good game thank you spawn.

[Eonwe]

well i guess lynching wayne would be the surefire way to get at wilwa. i was thinking if wilwa is a wolf, the wolves can't kill her, so if she doen't die in two nights they we will have the truth without killing wayne either. but i guess that we would still have to wade through this: (which would be a tough call to make)

Originally Posted by me

if wilwa is the seer, wayne must be a wolf. if wilwa is in fact a wolf, there are two differnt lines of logic she could choose:

pick a wolf, so when we lynch her, we will trust her. this is doubtful, cuz the idea isn't to have us trust her, its just to have us trust her for a day. the wolf sacrafise would be a long-run option.

pick an innocent to bring down with her. not a bad idea.

edit: dangit, i keep doing that! sorry for the confustion.

[Eonwe]

sorry to double post. hey its my first. ever.

i prolly shouldn't have deleted my post. wayne im almost freaking possitive you posted somthink about kittana being the other wolf. i read it, went to post, actually scrolled down to look at who you were thinking of adn posted. but when i did, mine was the only one there. am i halusinating?

[WaynetheGoblin]

I think you are seeing things because i didnt post. I like the idea where i dont get killed lets do that one please. If we do that the village will be happy since i am innicent.