the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

[quam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 82</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
After gandalf fell together with the balrog,and fought,and climbed very,VERY high,and throwed durin's curse of the zirakzigil, he died. We have only seen one other maia die,saruman, and he didn't come back stronger than ever. So why did gandalf?

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> ,http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>, http://pub11.ezboard.com/bbagend16025/bag end</a> and <a href=http://pub20.ezboard.com/bdunedainscamp/">dunedains camp</a>,where I'm an RPG moderator
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 204</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

The difference is that Saruman died but was not allowed to return to the west. If he were able to rebuild his body, he would be weaker not stronger for having to expend whatever remained of his power on forming his body. He had already expended much power in controlling and breeding his orcs and armies and making his &quot;ring&quot;. After Gandalf broke Saruman's staff (symbolic or a real blow to his power?) Saruman did not have much gas left.

Gandalf's body was reformed for him, and his power was increased (or he was allowed to use and show more of it). By whom was Gandalf assisted? This is one of JRRT's mysteries. Some say Eru did it because Gandalf does not say he returned to the West. Others feel the Valar assisted him.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1466</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

The Istari (the wizards) were sent to Middle-Earth by the Valar with a definite purpose but a very vague idea of the methods they were to employ to accomplish their goals.

Gandalf slowly but surely manipulated the enemies of Sauron until all the pieces were in place. Unfortunately, when he was at the height of his purpose, he unexpectedly met the Balrog in Moria. With his human body dead, his spirit (as Gandalf he was really a spiritual being inhabiting mortal flesh) returned to Aman. There he was revitalized and returned to his body where it lay in Middle-Earth.

But at the same time the Valar were restoring Gandalf to health (in whatver manor it is that they do such a thing) they were seeing that Saruman had fallen from his task and was actually opposing it. They made the decision that Gandalf returned would have to do the work of two wizards (or 3 or 5, depending on how you look at it). To do this they allowed Gandalf to reveal more of his spiritual power than before, no longer hiding his true nature as he had done as 'the Grey'.

In the end, with the Ring destroyed, Gandalf no longer exhibited any of his 'enhanced' powers. In fact, he really just seems to have acted as an old man after that. Saruman also was nothing but an 'old man' after the Ring was gone and the purpose of the Istari was complete. But because he had turned to evil, his true spiritual form was denied its return to Aman. In the Scouring of the Shire you see his spirit rise up and 'look' westward, only to be blown away in the wind.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 205</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

Interesting, Ron. I never thought to link Gandalf's powers wielded by his &quot;human&quot; body to the Ring and its destruction. Nor did I ever think about Gandalf's failure to use his powers after the destruction of the Ring.

Do you suggest that his abilities were somehow linked to the Ring's existence? Another way to look at it would be that after the Ring, Gandalf has no need to exhibit his power. Also, wasn't Gandalf involved in the &quot;mind to mind&quot; discussion with Elrond and Galadriel as they journeyed to the Havens?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1467</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

I guess I am suggesting that Gandalf's power, the power that he could openly use, was directly linked to the existence of the Ring. More correctly, his 'allowance' to use the power was regulated by the neccesity of his purpose - the destruction of Sauron.

If Gandalf was involved in the &quot;mind to mind&quot; discussion with Elrond and Galadriel, perhaps it had more to do with the Elven Rings than his Maia powers.



The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 107</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

I don't know about this, Ron. Gandalf tells both Aragorn and the hobbits that his work is finished and his task completed -- but does that mean his power has been banked by whatever forces have allotted him that power? IMO, no. If that's the case, then who is allotting Sauron his power and why didn't they just pull the plug on him when he started to buck the system?

Suppose Gandalf decided to rebel and set himself up as his own &quot;Dark Lord&quot;? Ridiculous, I know, but for the sake of argument, let's say he did -- he could have used his power to do so, I think.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1476</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

I'm not saying he has less power. I'm saying he is allowed to use it less (or maybe not at all) once the Ring is gone. Gandalf was, after all, a restrained character. Sauron on the other hand had no constraints other than the limit of his power.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 111</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

Hmm... I'm not sure why you say he's restrained. By whom? On what basis? The only restraint about Gandalf that I get is self-restraint (of which he had a considerable endowment, no doubt).

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1477</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

We're playing semantics here. Gandalf limited his use of power to whatever level he was told to. That was the restraint.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 10/14/00 7:54:10 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 96


They (all of the istari) were restrained indeed. they were forbidden to use their power openly, but their quest was to gain trust of elves and men, treading on equality, not by the splendour of their might, and re-kindle the courage and will to resist the Evil
.

they...were messangers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him, but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force or fear

UT, Istari, p 409

...being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came, the memory of the blessed realm was to them a vision from far off, for wich (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring by free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time

UT, Istari, p407

[Sharkû]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
Posts: 496</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

A soldier no longer needs his rifle once the war is over.

<h6> Like yapping dogs
Blind lead the blind
Those who chain the future
Are those time leaves behind
Is glory now gone?
A friendship worth of fiends
Is a rose without thorns. </h6></p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 115</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

Yes, true, but just so we're clear, even though the war is over, the soldier still has the rifle and can shoot it if he wants to; and just because he's been given guidelines to follow doesn't mean that he couldn't overstep those bounds if he chose to. We may have just misunderstood one another, but I thought Ron was making a direct link between the Ring and Gandalf's power, as opposed to the Ring and Gandalf's use of his power.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 127

Than let us admit that he wanted not. But don't you remember Gandalf's words at his parting with hobbits at the edge of Tom Bombadil's country? He said something about 'his time of setting things aright was over' and it was their due to arrange and order. T.A. ended, and the time of noon of men was come, and hobbits, being mortal, are men too, so I assume that with the fall of Sauron Gandalf's legitimity to meddle in all affairs of Middle-Earht ended too, as well as with the One Ring destroyed all the rest of them lost their power.

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 826</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

Reawakening an old thread to add some additional information. In a letter, Tolkien suggests that the limitations on the Istari's use of power were imposed by the Valar and may have been linked to them being &quot;incarnated&quot; in actual physical bodies as opposed to merely &quot;clothing&quot; themselves in a physical form. The interesting part of this letter is that JRRT implies that Gandalf's death was necessary. That he had accomplished all he could in his form as Gandalf the Grey and, with the treachery of Saruman, he had to be made &quot;greater&quot; in order to accomplish his tasks. Thus Gandalf was made more powerful yet still operated under prohibitions against using his power directly against Sauron.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 2183</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

This makes perfect sense. Otherwise Gandalf would simply have asserted his Maiaric power to defeat the Balrog rather then battle it with sword, tooth and nail.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Olorin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 4</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

Man you guys know how to find an answer! Very good topic.
Just to confirm what you've already said, i found in the UT that the Istari were not allowed to confront Sauron &quot;power vs power&quot;.
I just wander if he would have defeat the King of Angmar?
Just a question like that<img src=smile.gif ALT="">

</p>

[obloquy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 30</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

Incarnated rather than &quot;clothed&quot;...interesting concept. Would this affect an Istari's (Istar's?) ability to change how others perceive him? I had thought this meant actual shapechanging, but I guess it could simply be an influence issue. Thoughts?

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1265

Another parallel may be drawn, for it is impossible to think of such strongly religious writer as Tolkien not to be affected by his belief. For in Christian doctrine (common for all Christian divisions) thing must die to live. Even the birth of a human being is considered somehow to have only importance with regards to its future death, as a gate of a new life, which is the only thing worth having. The lower you bow, the higher you grow. To build something better you must destroy first what was before it. The complete refusal of anything – happines, power, life itself (not refusal as a mere “no, I don’t want it” – it’s more like a suicide, but voluntary sacrifice of things you love for a thing worth of still greater love, and only with such a sacrifice one may retain things that should have been loved less)– qualifies you most for a new kind of happines, power and life. In this case – more wisdom (expressed, but not contained, in the new title).

[GandaIf The White]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 249</TD><TD><img src=http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/HdR/crewmckel.JPG WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

This is a quote from RoTK when Gandalf is being assailed by the black riders. I only brought it up because Kittle said that Gandalf hadn't used his Maiaric powers to defeat the Balrog because he was prohibited from using his powers openly against Sauron. It seems like he did use his Maiaric powers to ward off the Black Riders in this part of the book.. so why wouldn't he have used them against the Balrog? And, when he battled with the Balrog, do you think that he did use his powers (I mean at the top of Zirik Zhugal)? Or just his sword? It would be a tough match with a Balrog shooting flames at you.. And it also seems like Gandalf used his powers against the Goblin King in The Hobbit.. though just in a small way.

Is this the kind of Maiaric power he had? Or are you all thinking of something much greater that I do not understand?

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 905</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

Just a partial response to Obloquy's query. Just because a Maia is &quot;incarnated&quot; does not mean that all his powers have been set aside. In the case of outward appearance, Gandalf says to Gimli that Saruman could have Gimli perceive Saruman as looking like Gandalf if it suited Saruman's purposes.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 2330</TD><TD><img src=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/my_pic.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the white is stronger than the Grey. Why?

I might have better said that he did not use his FULL Maiaric power. It is obvious throughout the book that he often used some sort of 'wizardry', but if he had unleashed his complete power to solve every problem he faced, his 'secret' would have been out.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

the white is stronger than the grey because the white is pure light; untouched by darkness
good is greater than evil...or so the storybooks say

[HerenIstarion]

Just up