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02-13-2003, 07:40 PM | #1 |
Wight
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Time line questions
Well I have a charctor called Eruantalon. He was 28 years old when the stewarts of Gondor took to governing Gondor. He was a high guard at the time. I was reading the time line looking for when that was(the stewarts governing) I think that was 2852 witch would make his birth year 2824. Is that right?
Also what year does the 4th age start. I mean if this is supposed to be the 7th age then how long where the ages 5 and 6. Does the age when men come around mean the actual time around 36,000 years ago? That would make the story of the Lord of the Ring around 30 thousand some years ago. About the time when men entered northern Europe. Can anyone help here? |
02-13-2003, 09:01 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Huh? I think you're looking for the role-playing forum, dude.
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02-14-2003, 12:41 AM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The line of ruling stewards began in 2050 TA.
The Fourth Age began when the ringbearers left ME in 3021. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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02-14-2003, 06:04 PM | #4 |
Wight
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i see how you misunderstood my question Tar.
In the 37,000 sum year history of human beings prehistory is domenent in our world. So we have about 5,000 years of recored history. Where in the 30,000 sum year time line does the 4th age start? Is it 25,000 years ago ruffly? Just was wondering? [ February 14, 2003: Message edited by: Eruantalon ] |
02-14-2003, 06:40 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Where did you get the number 30,000? I will try to work it out for you, but so you know, there is no concrete answer obviously.
1st Age- is like 580 years 2nd Age- is 3440 years 3rd Age- is 3021 years total is approx. 7041 years. the average length of an 'Age' is 2347 years approximate total after six ages is 14,082 Due to the brief duration of the First Age I would estimate the +/- error ratio to be about 3000 years. My conclusion? The total length of the first six Ages is between 11,082 and 17,082 years. If you work in the fact that we are theoretically in the 2003rd year of the 7th Age: Year 1 of the First Age occurred between 13,085 and 19,085 years ago. With the median, and probably most accurate, number being: drum roll please... 16,085 years have passed since day one 1st Age till now. Does that answer your question? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ February 14, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
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02-15-2003, 03:49 AM | #6 |
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That's an answer, but probably not the correct one. Tolkien says (found in Letters) that the ages are now passing more quickly. The 4th, 5th and 6th, according to him, would not have been as long as the previous ones.
In order to make Tolkien's timeline work, and for Aragorn, his descendants and opposing kingdoms to eventually assimilate into our own world, I believe you would have to do one of the following:
Obviously Tolkien's history of our world is just an alternative, and not the real story. At the time of writing, I don't think people knew nearly as much as they do today about Darwinism, the missing link, and prehistoric societies. From his writing, I think that we can infer Tolkien didn't really care much for that sort of thing. And so his 7 Age timeline pretends that it never happened!
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02-15-2003, 04:16 AM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I honestly don't care. But the math was fun. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] And I think it's a decent enough guess. So, how about it, just take an educated guess Mr. Platypus (or whoever), no need to be scholarly all the time. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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02-15-2003, 05:36 AM | #8 |
Alive without breath
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This is all verry well, but arn't we forgeting the age of the trees, the lamps and all that? everyone seems to be frogeting the main parts of unfinished tails and Silmarillion! Try working out the time from the creation of Arda!
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02-15-2003, 10:06 PM | #9 |
Wight
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LOL
Me and my pal Doug keep finding these things happening to us. We end up talking about things that upset people or ruffle feathers!!! Well since there is a total history of mans exsitnce being 36,000 years it fits perfectly into Tolkiens works. See Tar man left Aferica (Homo sapien sapien thats our current term) after a drought happened in Aferica. So we migranted to Europe. Homo sapien sapien arrived around 36 or 37,000 years ago. That has nothing to do with the Lord of the Rings but it is a time frame to try and figure out where his story is in. Thats all I was trying to ask. But thanks for the info Tar I appricate it a lot. |
02-16-2003, 01:32 AM | #10 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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As published in PoME JRRT wrote:
Quote:
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02-16-2003, 04:05 AM | #11 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Well not by much!! I was estimating, but I'm certain was not more than 590. Prove me wrong. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Here is an online site's timeline (So I could just cut and paste, I'm so lazy): Quote:
[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
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02-16-2003, 11:16 AM | #12 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
"Each 'Age' last[ed] somewhat more or less than 3000 years..." and "The Tale of Years in the Latter Ages. The First Age was the longest. It ended with the Great Battle...". He also wrote in Letter 131: "Several tales of victory and tragedy are caught up in it ; but it ends with catastrophe, and the passing of the Ancient World, the world of the long First Age." If the First Age "was the longest" (as JRRT wrote), then you are wrong. I think what you need to do is prove that JRRT was wrong. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Perhaps you can provide a citation from JRRT stating that the whole of the "long" First Age lasted only 590 years (as opposed to just the later portion)? By the way, the Valar gave Numenor to the Edain, not the Elves, and it was raised after the end of the First Age. [ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]
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02-16-2003, 02:09 PM | #13 |
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Hi Tar, What I mean by 'prove' is to provide some dates or definitions. Specifically, what defines the "First Age"? Because apparently I don't know. And I am stubborn enough to not be satisfied by "it was longer than 580 years".
Anybody else have a take on this? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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02-16-2003, 06:00 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
The section of Letter 131 that refers to "the long First Age", begins with JRRT writing of how the "Cycles begin with a cosmological myth: The Music of the Ainur". He then writes "It moves then swiftly to the History of the Elves, or the Silmarillion proper; to the world as we perceive it, but of course transfigured in a still half-mythical mode: that is it deals with rational incarnate creatures of more or less comparable stature with our own" and continues with the nature and making of Elves and Men. The section ends with him writing about the overthrow of Morgoth and Earendil being placed in heaven as a star. By this letter it would seem to me, though this is speculation, that the First Age likely began with the Awakening of the Elves (followed soon there after by Men and Dwarves 'historically' atleast, if not in 'mannish myth') or between then and the time when they made it to Aman. The time of the cosmological myths could be the earlier ages implied by the mention of the First Second and Third Ages being 'later ages' in the Tale of Years drafts in PoME. [ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ] [ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]
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02-16-2003, 07:19 PM | #15 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Thanks. What is PoME? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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02-16-2003, 07:23 PM | #16 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Peoples of Middle-earth (PoME), book 12 in the History of Middle-earth (HoME) series which are writings of JRRT that his son compiled and had published.
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02-18-2003, 11:39 AM | #17 |
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May be we must pull in "Myths transformed" hear?
The timeline with about 590 years for the first age is clearly based on the untransformed myth. Were the first age begins with the first raising of the sun. (this myth you can find in "The Silmarillion" and a fuller timeline is given in "The History of Middle-Earth": volume 11: "The war of Jewels") In "Myths Transformed" ("The Histairy of Middle-Earth"; volume 10: "Morgoth's Ring") Tolkien changed his mind about the timeline and astronomy of Middle-Earth greatly. So it might be that the first age of that transformed Myth would start with the awakening of the children of Ilúvatar. But we do not know because Tokien hadn't left a timeline for that myth. In the Letter, that say we are at the end of the 6th or the beginning of the 7th age (I do not know the numbers out of my head) is also a footnote that makes clear that Tolkien imagined a time gap between his time and the fall of Baradur of 6000 years. So that is the fact to start with. I have made calculation with that approximation and the time of the recorded moon phases in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Ring. It is a rather complicate calculation and is not jet oneline, so that I can't give a link to the summary. (But I wouldn't help you to much, because it is as jet only in German - may be it is time to make a translation.) For short the outcome was quiet simple: Taking the year of the letter an the year of adventure of Bilbo (from which I started) into account the 6000 years were not a approximation but perfectly to the point. The moon phases agreed to the tale in a period of about 7 years but with less good fit for the other years around the time gap of 6000. So if you like to know how long it since what ever event in Middle-Earth take the year of the letter (which I can't remember know), go back 6000 years and you will land your self in 3019 Third Age. Respectfully Findegil |
02-18-2003, 06:20 PM | #18 | ||
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Quote:
The Letter noting the "long First Age" (#131) is from 1951, and the cited passage from PoME noting for exampe that the First Age was the longest are likely from about 1954 or perhaps a little earlier. This is before the Myths Transformed writings which are from the late 1950's. Quote:
[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]
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02-19-2003, 07:28 AM | #19 |
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Tar Elenion, I do believe you, but could you please provide a citation from JRRT stating that the 'astronomy' of LotR has a sun and moon existing well before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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02-19-2003, 02:30 PM | #20 | |||
King's Writer
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Here we go with the asked for quotation. I take it from The History of Middle-Earth; volume 10: The War of the Jewels; part I:The Gary Annals (in may HarperCollins hardback-edition it is on page 30). I will start in the middle of paragraph 52 that described the march of Fingolfins host over the ice. I will also shorten it, only to spare me some typing. The Text it self was written in the very early 50th and a typescript was made of it may be in 1958:
Quote:
quote from Tar-Elenion: Quote:
I will give a short quote of the preference to that part of Morgoth's Ring (volume 10 of The History of Middle-Earth) from Christopher Tolkien: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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02-19-2003, 02:48 PM | #21 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Thanks Findegil and all. I have not read the HoME series yet and I appreciate your research.
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02-19-2003, 08:22 PM | #22 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
Quote:
We can also look at Galadriel's lament: Quote:
We could also go to The Hobbit: Quote:
[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]
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02-19-2003, 09:02 PM | #23 | ||
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This was quoted from History of Middle Earth #10 "Morgoth's Ring" by Tar Elenion:
Quote:
Quote:
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02-19-2003, 09:09 PM | #24 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
No, I am afraid I am not content with the quote, because it mentions nothing about the First Age, which appears only in your interpretation (though you may find something in earlier works). It speaks of the 'ages of the stars', the 'time of the Sun and Moon', and the 'Years of the Sun'. Nothing about the First Age (and this dovetails with JRRT's writings of this period about the 'long First Age' and the 'First Age being the longest'. The First Age started well before the return of the Noldor. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Quote:
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Quote:
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Thanks
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02-19-2003, 09:13 PM | #25 | |
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Quote:
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]
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02-20-2003, 02:21 AM | #26 |
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Ah, Tar-Elenion, so what are you argue about is that the years of the sun as they are counted in The Grey Annals and The Tale of the years in The War of the Jewels during the First Age (obviously only 590 years) provided only a very small part of that same First Age? So the rest of the 'long First Age' was filled with years of the stars or years of the trees as they are named in The Grey Annals and the Annals of Aman?
And as an evidence for that you provide the quotations about the 'long first age' and 'the first age was longest' that are given in this thread? Well, yes it is possible, but very fine spun. Some times I think it easier and more natural to live with contradictional ideas worked with by JRR Tolkien at the same time, than to search for such complicate solutions which can bring all his statements together. Respectfully Findegil |
02-20-2003, 06:31 PM | #27 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Correct the 590 Years of the Sun were the end of the long First Age. I dont find it complicated (nor is it contradictory) at all since JRRT does not say that the 590 YS is the whole of the First Age (particularly when you note for example YS 1, not FA 1).
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02-22-2003, 12:14 PM | #28 | |
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My apologise Tar-Elenion. I have re-read The Tales of the Years in The War of the Jewels and found to my surprise not an argument against your point but the absolute proof for it:
Quote:
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02-22-2003, 04:00 PM | #29 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Thanks. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I had not remembered that one.
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