Why? (Numenorean blood thing)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Here's my problem: Eldacar is the son of Valacar and Vidumavi, so he's only half-Numenorean. Yet he lives to over 200 years. Theoden, also half-Numenorean(son of Thengel and Morwen of Lossarnach) lives to only 70+(disregard the fact that he died in battle. The point is, he waned early.) Why is this? Is the Numenorean longetivity dependent only on the father? Andaya nila, 'no? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Meneltarmacil]

Theoden waned early not because of his ancestry, but because Saruman had put a spell on him. Hope that helps.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

So, if Saruman never put a spell on him, would he have reached at least a hundred years. And what about Elfwine, son of Eomer. He's more than half Numenorean. Would he have the life-span of a Numenorean(or at least, a Dunedain in its waning...still long enough)

[Eladar]

There is another thing to take into consideration, time.

From Appendix A:

After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men...

This mingling did not at first hasten the waning of the Dunedain, as had been feared; but the waning still proceeded, little by little, as it had before. For no doubt t was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Numenoreans after the downfall of the Land of the Star...

The more time that passed, the shorter the life span.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

It's not general Dunedain waning that's my question, but half-Dunedain life span. Aren't they supposed to get extension of their vigour? I can't remember the exact quote, but Theoden said something about his diminished vigour is not only due to Saruman's spells, but of old age also. He was just in his 70s.

[Maéglin]

Maybe the Numenorean blood didnt run as strong as in Theoden's veins? After all Faramir is considered to be more similar to a Numenorean in terms of looks and mood than his brother Boromir, yet their parentage was the same. Its like why do I look more like my mother than my father when they are both my parents by blood. Its just the luck of the draw, my friend [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Also, where is it mentioned that Morwen of Lossarnach herself was pure Numenorean by direct lineage, all we know is that she was Gondorian.

[FingolfintheBold]

Exactly, Maeglin. Numenorian qualities and attributes are not based soley on having one parent from Gondor. Many, many Gondorians, probably the great majority, were not necessarily Numenorian, though they were of Numenorian decent. People in Minas Tirith rgarded true Numenorians as regal and almost supernatural, as seen in the Prince Imrahil, in who the blood ran true. Faramir, Denethor, and ,of course, Aragorn had the True Numenorian Air, while Beregond, Furlong, Boromir, and I assume Theoden's wife, did not.

theoden said "my old age is neither feigned nor due to wormtongue's whisperings" or something like that. Was aragorn a numenorean? I'm pretty sure he was. he was 87 when he met Frodo in bree, but he looks a lot younger than Theoden.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Yes...luck of draw. I think you're right, Maeglin. But I think Morwen must have strong Numenorean roots, if she's not pure blood. But, then again...physical traits don't necessarily tell if one is of Numenorean descent or not. Thanks, guy! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Was aragorn a numenorean? I'm pretty sure he was. he was 87 when he met Frodo in bree, but he looks a lot younger than Theoden.

Of course he was, we know that, but he was of pure Nuemnorean blood -- the blood of the kings of Arnor, what's more. (And he was 99, not just 87, when he met Frodo in Bree. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

It is said that to pass the centennial mark is pretty good, at the end of the Third Age, for a Gondorian. Theoden was only half Gondorian, but I would think that he would in fact have lived to a great age (perhaps one hundred years) had he not been killed. 200 years is a bit unrealistic by this stage, although the ruling house certainly tended to live significantly longer.

But Theoden certainly aged remarkably well. To fight as mightily in battle as he did, at the venerable age of around seventy? Can you think of a seventy year old who you might know, who could ride into battle to fight with Isengard and with the Haradrim ('felling the black serpent', indeed) like that? I don't think so. Think about it. After he recovered from his Wormtongue-induced decrepancy, he certainly found a young strength within him.

Just a thought.... that Eldacar was actually a ruling King of Gondor, and thus the fact that he seems to have inherited total Numenorean longevity is perhaps due to this as well. As King of Rohan, Theoden had to be more Rohirrimish than Eldacar did -- doesn't fit in with the rules of inheritance, but the workings of Middle-Earthian fates and, especially, themes is strong (not surprisingly, as it is after all a work of written fiction).

[ September 16, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Maéglin]

Yes ruling houses do tend to live longer, because in reality they get better conditions, food etc, while the "lesser people," you know peasants and the like are in a relatively lower living condition... but thats getting sidetracked a bit :P

What about the Hobbits... Many of them do seem to live past the hundred mark... the more renowned The Great Took, Bilbo, Lobelia and husband(?). LOL I can just see it... the midget ancestors of the Numenoreans... that might explain their toughness in resisting the ring as well... its the Numenorean purity :P

[Meneltarmacil]

(And he was 99, not just 87, when he met Frodo in Bree.)

99? Do my ears decieve me? Most BD'ers know that Aragorn is in fact 87. If you think he's older or younger though... he was born in 2931 and met Frodo at Bree in 3018.
And just to be sure, I went and did the math myself.

3018
-2931
------
87

And there you have it. Of course, it doesn't matter how old he was. in this day and age somebody who's 87 is usually in a nursing home, not out on a battlefield killing orcs. The source of Numenorean longevity probably comes from Elros, who was half-elven.

[ September 16, 2003: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ]

Aragorn lived to around 210 years old, I think. I wonder how long Theoden would have lived, if he didn't die in battle? Thomas Jefferson went horseback riding without any help until he was around either 70 or 80. (just a randomish fact I know because Thomas Jefferson was last week's President of the Week)

-Dilly

[Maéglin]

Yes but did Thomas Jefferson wear chain mail & helm, and fight orcs at the same time :P

Actually I think the Numenorean longevity in general was a gift from the Valar. They couldn't take the gift of mortality from them but they did give them extended lives. It is said after the War of Wrath that Eonwe came among them and taught the remnants of the Edain much lore, with the longest lives given to the line of Elros.

[Finwe]

Just because a person was from Gondor wouldn't necessarily mean that they were of Numenorean blood. Most of them had the blood of "lesser men" in their veins, which resulted in a diminished life span.

We can't really use Aragorn as a standard because he was unique for his time, Tolkien states that outright. For someone with his degree of Numenorean blood, he shouldn't have lived for 210 years, and still retain all his faculties. I think that since he was destined to reunite the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor, he was "given" a lifespan far greater than that of his kin.

Instead of using Aragorn, we should use someone like Faramir to compare people to. Denethor wouldn't really fit the description due to his "addiction" to the Palantir. Beregond says that his lord aged before his time, and also voiced his suspicion that something untoward was going on in the Steward's Tower. Faramir, on the other hand, was a relatively "clean" person, and Tolkien also states that he inherited the Numenorean blood, so we know that for a fact.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I did some research and..

but he with other descendants of King Thengel were taller than the norm of Rohan, deriving this characteristic (together in some cases with darker hair) from Morwen, Thengel's wife, a lady of Gondor of high Numenorean descent{"Unfinished Tales," Appendix to "Disaster of the Gladden Fields"}

So Morwen was of High-Numenorean descent...so, nothing...my problems, answered anyway... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

99? Do my ears decieve me? Most BD'ers know that Aragorn is in fact 87.

An embarassing mistake. It was a long time ago when I worked out his age. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]