If Gollum and Bilbo had parted in a civil manner...

[Thinlómien]

I am currently reading The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. I have found quite a lot of interesting things there. The Letter #128 (on p.141) I came across with yesterday. It has proven itself quite exciting.
It is a letter to Allen&Unwin after they had published a new edition of The Hobbit (July 1950). Along with the correction of minor mistakes the original Chapter V, "Riddles in the Dark" had been replaced with a newer version of the chapter that Tolkien had sent in 1947, but not actually intending it to be published.

The interesting thing here is that the story in the first edition was different. The footnote #1 to this letter tells the following:

In the original version of Chapter 5 of The Hobbit, Gollum really does intend to give Bilbo the Ring when the hobbit wins the riddle-game, and it'sdeeply apologetic when he finds that it is missing: 'I don't know how many times Gollum begged Bilbo's pardon. He kept on saying: "We are ssorry; we didn't mean to cheat, we meant to give it our only present, if it won the competition." He even offered to catch Bilbo some nice juicy fish to eat as a consolation.' Bilbo, who has the Ring in his pocket, persuades Gollum to lead him out of the underground passages, which Gollum does, and the two of them part company in a civil manner.

(That was the whole footnote.)

When this version of The Hobbit was published to Tolkien's surprise, he was already writing The Lord of The Rings. I just wonder how did he get the story to fit the previous passage...

If the previous version was the final version of the chapter...
* The significance of Bilbo as the only Ringbearer who has ever given the ring away willingly would be greatly reduced.
* The whole 'pity'-aspect would be ruined.
* Gollum's behaviour would appear unbeliveable; he would have changed from a polite riddle-gamer into a slimy thief.

Just now I can't think about any other changes...
Any ideas? Comments? Anything to add?

(I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I didn't find anything related to this with forum search...)

[Rimbaud]

Good digging! Further even than your fine points, the original version questions the very essence of the Ring. It would make TH entirely incompatible with LotR, rather than simply lighter in tone.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

Good digging! Further even than your fine points, the original version questions the very essence of the Ring. It would make TH entirely incompatible with LotR, rather than simply lighter in tone.

That's true, the Ring wouldn't be nearly as tempting and enslaving if Gollum had let it go willingly. (And even without a really heavy reason like Bilbo in LotR.)

[Gothmog]

What an interesting change of scene that is. I'm wondering if Gollum really could have given the ring away? He intended to give his precious to Bilbo, but Bilbo intended to leave the Ring to Frodo at his departure. Still, Bilbo found it hard seperate from it. Shouldn't Gollum, who had the ring for many hundreds of years, had an even harder struggle with himself?

The ancient rules of the Riddle game is mentioned in TH. Would something like that be able to override the ring's power and make Gollum give away his ring?

I doubt Gollum would be able to give away the Ring once it lay in his hand. In this old version, he doesn't have a choice. But if this version were to be published as the right one, Gollum's lack of reaction of the missing ring wouldn't agree very well with LotR.

But in some way, the loss of the ring as mentioned here seems like the best thing that could happen to the poor creature. Maybe, if the story was written in this way, Smeagol could die in peace.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the ring was just a magic ring, a convenient device for making Bilbo invisible and helping him through his adventures. Only when JRRT chose to make it into The One Ring for LotR did its nature change - and that passage from The Hobbit had to be changed to make it fit. Rimbaud is right - they wouldn't have been the same ring.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the ring was just a magic ring, a convenient device for making Bilbo invisible and helping him through his adventures. Only when JRRT chose to make it into The One Ring for LotR did its nature change - and that passage from The Hobbit had to be changed to make it fit. Rimbaud is right - they wouldn't have been the same ring.

This is true - but isn't it strange, that Tolkien didn't still seriously commit the version where Gollum cheats and Bilbo follows him invisible through the passages?

[Eonwe]

Gollum wouldn't have gone out looking for Bilbo. Sauron would never have learned the names Shire, and Baggins. Or at least not until much later. I think it says somewhere that he had to speed up his plans a great deal when he learned that the Ring had been found (the chief purpose of the attack on Osgiliath was to present the Ringwraiths as captains of the war, instead of scouts for the Ring.) This could be good and bad, because as Gandalf (I think) says, "oft the hasty stroke goes amiss." Anyway, Gollum would certainly come off looking much better than the pitieable wrech he is in LOTR.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

So, what would that have made Gollum then? It's not mentioned until LOTR that Gollum used to be a Hobbit, yes? It was the ring's corruption that made him how he was. But if that is the original version, was Gollum, then, some other race on Middle Earth? Did Tolkien intend, at that point, for Gollum to have been a Hobbit?

[Eonwe]

hmmmm. good question. off teh top of my head, i would say that gollum would have been intended to be one of teh (to my mind) numerous unexlained things, kind of like the stone-giants. but that is just inisial reaction. i always got the sense that The Hobbit was a much less "ordered" or maybe thought-out would be better, world than LOTR. Everyone seems to be a bit mix-up (Tharanduil's folk seem nothing like what Elves "should" be like, Elrond carries red silk handkerchiefs, the Goblin doesn't instantly strike Thorin down, etc.). Maybe you could call him an imp, i don't know.

[davem]

Riddles in the Dark (1937 version)

(From: ‘Both wrong,’ cried Bilbo very much relieved; & he jumped at once to his feet, put his back to the nearest wall, & held out his little sword.’The 1937 text continues: )

But funnily enough he need not have been alarmed. for one thing Gollum had learned long long ago was never, never, to cheat at the riddle-game, which is a sacred one & of immense antiquity. Also there was the sword. He simply sat & whispered. ‘What about the present?’ asked Bilbo, not that he cared very much, still he felt that he had won it, pretty fairly, & in very difficult circumstances too.
‘Must we give it the thing, preciouss? Yess, we must!. we must fetch it, preciouss, & give it the present we promised.’ So Gollum paddled back to his boat, & Bilbo thought he had heard the last of him. but he had not. The hobbit was just thinking of going back up the passage - having had quite enough of Gollum & the dark water’s edge - when he heard him wailing & squeaking away in the gloom. He was on his island (of which, of course, Bilbo knew nothing), scrabbling here & there, searching & seeking in vain, & turning out his pockets.‘
Where iss it? Where iss it?’ Bilbo heard him squeaking. ‘Lost, lost, my preciouss, lost, lost! Bless us & splash us! We haven’t the present we promised, & we haven’t even got it for ourselveses.
’Bilbo turned round & waited, wondering what it could be that the creature was making such a fuss about. This proved very fortunate afterwards. For Gollum came back & made a tremendous spluttering & whispering & croaking; & in the end Bilbo gathered that Gollum had had a ring, a ring that he had been given for a birthday present, ages & ages before in old days when such rings were less uncommon. Sometimes he had it in his pocket; usually he kept it in a little hole in the rock on his island; sometimes he wore it - when he was very, very hungry, & tired of fish, & crept along dark passages looking for stray goblins. Then he might venture even into places where the torches were lit & made his eyes blink & smart; but he would be safe. O yes! very nearly safe; for if you slipped that ring on your finger, you were invisible; only in the sunlight could you be seen, & then only by your shadow, & that was a faint & shaky sort of shadow.
I don’t know how many times Gollum begged Bilbo’s pardoned. He kept on saying: ‘We are ssorry; we didn’t mean to cheat, we meant to give it our only only present, if it won the competition.’ He even offered to catchBilbo some nice juicy fish to eat as a consolation.
Bilbo shuddered at the thought of it. ‘No thank you!’ he said as politely as he could.
He was thinking hard, & the idea came to him that Gollum must have dropped that ring sometime & that he must have found it, & that he had that very ring in his pocket. But he had the wits not to tell Gollum.
‘Finding’s keeping!’ he said to himself; & being in a very tight place, I daresay, he was right. Anyway the ring belonged to him now.
‘Never mind!’ he said, ‘The ring would have been mine now, if you had found it; so you would have lost it anyway. And I will let you off on one condition.’‘Yes, what iss it? What does it wish us to do, my preciouss?’ Help me to get out of these places,’ said Bilbo.Now Gollum had to agree to this, if he was not to cheat. He still very much wanted just to try what the stranger tasted like; but now he had to give up all idea of it. Still there was the little sword; & the stranger was wide awake & on the look out, not unsuspecting as Gollum liked to have the things which he attacked. So perhaps it was best after all. That is how Bilbo got to know that the tunnel ended at the water & went no further on the other side where the mountain wall was dark & solid. He also learned that he ought to have turned down one of the side passages to the right before he came to the bottom; but he could not follow Gollum’s directions for finding it again on the way up, & he made the wretched creature come & show him the way.As they went along up the tunnel together, Gollum flip-flapping at this side, Bilbo going very softly, he thought he would try the ring. He slipped it on his finger.‘Where iss it? Where iss it gone to?’ said Gollum at once, peering about with his long eyes.‘Here I am, following behind!’ said Bilbo slipping the ring off again, & feeling very pleased to have it & to find that it really did what Gollum said. Now they went on again, while Gollum counted the passages to left & right: ‘One left, one right, two right, three right, two left,’ & so on. He began to get very shaky & afraid as they left the water further & further behind; but at last he stopped by a low opening on their left (going up) - ‘six right, four left.’‘Here’s the passage, ‘ he whispered. ‘It musst squeeze in & sneak down. We durstn’t go with it, my precious, no we durstn’t, gollum!’ So Bilbo slipped under the arch, & said good-bye to the nasty miserable creature; & very glad he was. He did not feel comfortable until he felt quite sure it was gone, & he kept his head out in the main tunnel listening until the flip-flap of Gollum going back to his boat died away in the darkness. Then he went down the new passage.It was a long narrow one roughly made. It was alright for the hobbit, except when he stubbed his toes in the dark on nasty jags in the floor; but it must have been a bit low for goblins. Perhaps it was not knowing that goblins are used to this sort of thing, & go along quite fast stooping low with their hands almost on the floor, that made Bilbo forget the danger of meeting them & hurry forward recklessly. Soon the passage began to go up again, & after a while it climbed steeply. That slowed him down. But at last after some time the slope stopped, the passage turned a corner & dipped down again, & at the bottom of a short incline he saw filtering round another corner - a glimmer of light. Not red light as of fire or lantern, but pale ordinary out-of-doors sort of light. Then he began to run. Scuttling along as fast as his little legs would carry him he turned the corner & came suddenly right into an open place where the light, after all that time in the dark, seemed dazzlingly bright. Really it was only a leak of sunshine in through a doorway, where a great door, a stone door, was left a little open.Bilbo blinked, & then he suddenly saw the goblins; goblins in full armour with drawn swords sitting just inside the door, & watching it with wide eyes, & the passage that led to it! They saw him sooner than he saw them, & with yells of delight they rushed upon him. Whether it was accident or presence of mind, I don’t know. Accident, I. think, because the hobbit was not used yet to his new treasure. Anyway he slipped the ring on his left hand - & the goblins stopped short. They could not see a sign of him. Then they yelled twice as loud as before, but not so delightedly.
(Then back to the second edition at : ‘Where is it?’ they cried.‘Go back up the passage!’ some shouted.)

[bilbo_baggins]

I really thought that your signature was appropriate there, davem, because obviously, somehow, Tolkien had to change some things in his extensive writings.

A question that this topic brought to my mind is whether or not The Hobbit precedes his writing and scrawlings on the History of Middle Earth? I can't look it up, but I think in the prologue of the Silm. Christopher Tolkien says how his fathers writings were found in high school composition notebooks. How early did JRR begin to formulate the history of the elves? Then we have TH, which is practically a bedtime story. Was it meant to cast a softened light upon a dark and troubled beginning of Arda that he had already come up with? Or was it meant to be something almost entirely different? It seems obvious that he changed personally very drastically between the 30's and 40's, between TH and LOTR.

Or did he mean to leave such a messily welded storyline as is? How we can go from a peaceful Hobbit-story, with nearly civil partings between Gollum and Bilbo, to Frodo's harrowing journey across Mordor?

Does anyone know when Tolkien first came up with, or began to write down his Silmarillion story? Does it precede the TH writings?

food for thought...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tolkien's Legendarium, which later became the Silmarillion, was definitely conceived of long before he wrote The Hobbit. When he started writing the latter, it wasn't intended to belong to Middle-earth, but Middle-earth gradually made its way into parts of the story. Only when he wrote what was supposed to be a sequel to The Hobbit, LotR, did he have to make an effort to integrate the two stories.

[davem]

I certainly think that the original version of RitD is much more in keeping with the style of the rest of TH up to that point, & that the later, darker, version we're all used to is out of place.

You have to ask whether the change was necessary - the account given in the Prologue of LotR, of the original version of the encounter with Gollum being a lie by Bilbo would have meant he could have preserved the style & charm of TH by keeping it unchanged & allowed LotR to work in its own right.

Certainly the new version was only written by Tolkien & sent to the publishers as an example of the kind of change that would have to be made if TH was to be made to fit with the Gollum of LotR & he was surprised when he found they used it to replace the original, but he let it stand - even though it makes the whole 'lie' scenario in LotR unnecessary.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

I certainly think that the original version of RitD is much more in keeping with the style of the rest of TH up to that point, & that the later, darker, version we're all used to is out of place.

Speaking as someone who had never read or really paid much heed to the original version of the chapter until the other one was entirely solidified in my mind, I never found it out of place.

Rather, I found it to be the turning point of the story, where we first see Bilbo "grow up" a little, and take a little control of his own destiny (also there in the original chapter). Naturally it marks a change in the story, and seems different from the previous chapters.

But, at the same time, it also felt to me to be quite in keeping with the later chapters. In particular, any "heavy" air about it seems reminiscent of the last chapters of the books, such as the Battle of the Five Armies.

And yes, yes I know that that part of the book was written after the early chapters by quite a span of time. All the same, it was a part of the original edition as well, and it also predated the Lord of the Rings.

In summary, my opinion has always been that the "true" version of the chapter has always fit well with the rest of the book.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by davem

Certainly the new version was only written by Tolkien & sent to the publishers as an example of the kind of change that would have to be made if TH was to be made to fit with the Gollum of LotR & he was surprised when he found they used it to replace the original, but he let it stand - even though it makes the whole 'lie' scenario in LotR unnecessary.

I wouldn't say unnecessary; it is one thing again that tells about the Ring's great luring power and its power to make it bearers alter the truth.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I wouldn't say unnecessary; it is one thing again that tells about the Ring's great luring power and its power to make it bearers alter the truth.

What I meant was the idea of Bilbo's account being a 'lie' was only required if the original version of Riddles in the Dark was left to stand. In the original version Bilbo claimed Gollum had freely given him the Ring - hence he was lying. When the new version was substituted in later editions of TH we have Bilbo telling the truth in his book so there wasn't any 'lie' being told about how he obtained the Ring.

In fact, the original version of how he obtained the Ring fits better with LotR than the revised version.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

But, at the same time, it also felt to me to be quite in keeping with the later chapters. In particular, any "heavy" air about it seems reminiscent of the last chapters of the books, such as the Battle of the Five Armies.

The problem is that after the encounter with Gollum the story reverts to the 'older', 'childish' style, so we don't get the slow maturing of Bilbo (& the story) but a kind of 'jerk' forward to the later style, followed by a 'jerk' back.