The Silmarillion Survivor

[Anguirel]

Welcome to the most epic reality TV show of the First Age!

A few ground rules:

1. To represent the long passage of time and generations in the Silmarillion, tribes will come and go at certain points, and deaths will sometimes occur as well as evictions.

2. I will be describing the challenges and their results. Vote with an eye to what needs to be achieved. A failed challenge can have dire and radical consequences...

3. The Silmarillion is a substantial work. In keeping with this, all votes without some reasoning are discounted.


Right. It's Day One in Valinor, and Feanor has just created the Silmarilli...

The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Manwe
Melkor
Ulmo
Aule
Tulkas
Namo aka Mandos
Orome
Lorien
Varda
Yavanna
Nienna
Este
Vana
Vaire
Nessa

NOLDOR

Finwe
Feanor
Fingolfin
Finarfin
Maedhros
Maglor
Celegorm
Caranthir
Curufin
Amrod
Amras
Fingon
Turgon
Aredhel
Finrod
Artanis aka Galadriel
Orodreth
Aegnor
Angrod

TELERI

Olwe

MAIA

Osse
Uinen
Eonwe
Huan
Olorin
Tilion
Arien

VANYAR

Ingwe
Indis
Amarie

FORCES OF EVIL

Ungoliant

The first challenge-HORTICULTURE. Look after the island's source of light, the Two Trees. Make sure they're tended and watered properly and that no vandals can hurt them.

EDIT: Voting closes at 9 GMT, which is I think 3:00 or 4:00 EST...anyone who keeps a running tally gets a gold star from me!

[The Saucepan Man]

Hmm. The nature of the task makes one contestant in particular a candidate for eviction. But it is always possible that her skills will be needed later on.

Who was it that declared the day of feasting that meant that the Trees were left unguarded? Manwe, wasn't it? Perhaps we should consider voting him off so that the other contestants can get on with the job of guarding the Trees without the distraction of some pointless feast.

[WaynetheGoblin]

++ungoliant get rid of the evil.

[Anguirel]

I suppose your comment just about counts as reasoning, Wayne...

A most original idea, Saucie. I think you'll find Melkor supports it...

I fear people are worn out by LOTR Survivor. The ratings for this first series are troublingly low! Come on, one and all, roll up, roll up...

[Lalaith]

Dear moderator, I'm not quite clear as to your wishes. Would you like us to propose eviction candidates immediately or did you intend us to invent some dramatic incidents first?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by me

But it is always possible that her skills will be needed later on.

Just to add some further thoughts on that comment.

It seems to me that what Anguirel is presenting us with here is a series of "problems" which, in effect, need to be solved. So what we need to do is work through the problems (either in co-operation or - more likely - in a series of loose alliances and mutually antagonistic groups ) in order to come up with the best solution. My preminary reaction to the "problem" which Ang has set us today is that the obvious solution may not necessarily be the best one.

[Anguirel]

No, sorry, I should have made that clear. You just vote for contestants to leave, with reasoning, as normal. I'll then write up the results of your choice and how the challenges go.

IE, I get to do the creative writing, you do the politicking! Rather like a Werewolf game, ho ho...

Basically, Saucie's post is a model of what you should be doing...thinking about the challenge as well as about your own opinions, and deciding accordingly.

Have fun...

[arcticstorm]

If this is what we are intended to do, I agree with Sauce that ++Manwe 's feast seems to be the most dangerous thing to the trees.

[Eonwe]

well, well, i guess i will make my survivor debute.

Lets see, the first part is tended and watered properly. that would be yavanna's business, i believe. and the next, protected and free from vanals, would fall on orome and tulkas. so i propose that first off, we detail these three for 24/7 watch about the trees. then we can think of striking at the vanals themselves at our leisure.

as for the vanals, the obvious answer (as wyane put it) is get rid of the evil (aka melkor and ungoliant). but i ask you, what fun is an island with no Dark Lord to fight, eh? so manwe might be a good choise.

[Anguirel]

Show host's fair warning: if Melkor goes too early, you may find certain Valar suffer attacks of megalomania...

[Lalaith]

++Olwe.
What good were the Teleri when it came to looking after or even caring about the Trees?

They recked little of seasons or times, and gave no thought to the cares of the Rulers of Arda, or the shadow that had fallen on Valinor, for it had not touched them, as yet.

I bet if you vox-popped any passing elf on the streets of Alqualonde, s/he wouldn't even be able to tell you the *name* of one of the Trees, let alone how to take care of them. The feckless Teleri have been encouraged in their blinkered, parochial and downright selfish attitude by their leader. He has no place on Survivor, where pulling together counts for everything.

[Anguirel]

Ungoliant:1
Manwe:1
Olwe:1

[The Saucepan Man]

While I agree with your reasoning, Lal, the contestants are bound to have a sea-based task at some point, so it might be worth keeping Olwe as the only representative of the Teleri tribe.

Manwe is a possibility, but what if one of the tasks involves aerial skills? His Eagles may come in useful.

It seems to me that we could happily lose one of the Noldor without compromising any future tasks. There would still be more than enough to tend to and guard the Trees. But which one ...

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

While I agree with your reasoning, Lal, the contestants are bound to have a sea-based task at some point, so it might be worth keeping Olwe as the only representative of the Teleri tribe.

Once the game moves to Middle-earth, there'll be Sindarin Elf mariners. But at this stage the argument stands...

Myself, however, I think that we should target neither Teleri nor Noldor. Behold the Vanyar! They comb their hair and sing songs that are in any case inferior to Maglor's. Indis and Amarie are always disturbing Finwe and Finrod with their flirting, and Ingwe is so damnably superior. Silver (golden?) spoons in all of their mouths...

I'm leaning towards Amarie. Her playing hard to get is really depressing Finrod and putting him off his task...

[Lalaith]

Ok, you're right. The Vanyar have always annoyed me, stuck-up teachers' pets.
That Ingwe, sitting at the feet of Manwe like a great blond pudding. I bet the party was his idea, and all.

--Olwe

++Ingwe

[Anguirel]

That's far too funny to resist. Ingwe it is. Get lost, O Shiny One! Not "King of all the Elves" now, are we?

++INGWE

Votes:

Ungoliant: 1
Manwe: 1
Ingwe: 2

If there are any Vanyar fans out there, look to your King...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Ingwe is so damnably superior.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

That Ingwe, sitting at the feet of Manwe like a great blond pudding. I bet the party was his idea, and all.

I quite agree, so I'll join the gathering ...

++ INGWE

... bandwaggon.

[Eonwe]

Not so! Look at this nonsense, voteing for Ingwe. What harm has he ever done? Is there anything so terrible about being loyal to the valar?

I think a much better choice would be one such as Curufin. Hot-tempered, unpredictable, ruled by passion, malicious, the list goes on. There lies a true threat. I'll warrent that he has some jealous plot to steal the silmarils and destroy the trees himself, thus becomeing the sole owner of light. Can we really allow such outrage?!

++Curufin

[Anguirel]

Ungoliant: 1
Manwe: 1
Ingwe: 3
Curufin: 1

Curufin? You mean Feanor's kindly, charming fifth son? The one with the lovely, round, soft, innocent eyes? The sensitive smith and artist? The loving husband whose wife is expecting a child?

Come off it. A ridiculous accusation!

And a dangerous one too. Quite apart from Feanor himself-and Curufin is Feanor's favourite!-he has rather a lot of tall, imposing, muscled big brothers.

Maedhros-"If that sissy Maia herald Eonwe so much as touches my wee brother..."

Maglor-"Voting for Curufin? He must have simply dreadful taste..."

Celegorm-"I'll have a word with Orome about this. No one bullies little Curu and gets away with it!"

Caranthir-*seizes massive hammer from forge* "So where does this Eonwe live?"

[Eonwe]

Herm, unless i am quite mistaken (which is not a bad assumption), was it not curufin and his brother caranthir who jealously and quite without honor attacked Beren and his fianse, luthian? this tells us something of their jealous nature, and another about their lack of kingly honor, which is easlily disernable in the character of ingwe.

Anyway, do you really think four measly elves would even be a small match for the herald of Manwe? First of, Maglor would only sing songs of regret and pain, which don't faze me in the least. And im sure Maedhros - always rational - would see how he couldn't honorably defend a brother that could conceive such a dastardly plan as killing the trees and stealing the silmarils. and don't you think stealing the silmarils would quite put curufin out of his father's good graces?

[Anguirel]

The Voice of Mandos confirms: Celegorm and Curufin, actually...but your point holds...

But there is no proof for your slanderous suggestion of Curufin's thievery. House Feanor have undying loyalty to each other. Why would this favoured son steal from his own father?

[mormegil]

Everybody this is the perfect time to get rid of Feanor. The silmarils have been created and if the trees are destroyed we can perhaps save them. Also getting rid of such a hot-headed jerk would save his wonderful sons Maedrhos and Maglor from entering into that awful oath and preventing the curse of the Noldor. I think it's time for this one trick pony to be put out to stud.

++Feanor

plus he never did a good job of defending the trees.

[Anguirel]

Ungoliant: 1
Manwe: 1
Ingwe: 3
Curufin: 1
Feanor: 1

Looks like the camp against idle blonde pretty Elves is more united than the camp against brooding, dark Byronic Elves...

[the guy who be short]

The first challenge-HORTICULTURE. Look after the island's source of light, the Two Trees. Make sure they're tended and watered properly and that no vandals can hurt them.

Hmm. Now who can we possibly think of that may be described as a vandal, or who may want to destroy the trees - and fail the task?

++Ungoliant.

[Gothmog]

As I see it there's more than one tactic here.

One way to do this is to look at the task ahead and vote in a way which simplifies the dealing with it.

An other path to choose is to look further in to the future and try to eliminate possible threats to the other survivors in the long run. Or vote off those least needed on the island.

I would like to go for a combination. If we vote Manwe off, I'm sure the Valar would be quite upset and the chaos following when there's no natural leader might lead to a fight for the power. I guess both Ulmo and Aule wouldn't mind the title of King, not to mention about Melkor. And Varda might claim the title too, being the foremost among Queens with a strong support from the elves (O Elbereth!).

Ungoliant seems like the easy option, but is it to easy? Can she (it) be of use later?

There's some good reasons to vote Ingwe out. What good did he ever do? Spoiled children, all of those Vanyar... But on the other hand they didn't do any harm either. Rather vote Amarië than Ingwe however. What kind of woman stays at home when her beloved migrates to an other continent? bah...

I could go for Ingwe, but i think I'll...yes it has to be one of the 3 evil C's: Celegorm, Caranthir or Curufin. I've never liked Caranthir. Just listen to the "surname" the Dark. But it was Celegorm and Curufin that first imprisoned Luthien and then attacked Beren and Luthien in the woods. And the most despicable act of all was Curufin, beaten in battle by Beren, behind Berens back aiming and shooting, not one but TWO arrows at Luthien.

Therefore: ++Curufin.

He of no help regarding the "tree-quest" and he did a lot of things nobody would be proud of. I think the brothers thirst for power and revenge is a critical threat to the good atmosphere on the island.

Plus they always eats more than their share of rice

[the phantom]

I'm shocked that you would even consider voting off poor Feanor!

The text makes it quite clear that Melkor's primary goal was to ruin Feanor-

he sought ever more eagerly how he should destroy Feanor

And a mere elf obviously has no chance of fully resisting Melkor's will. Even the Valar knew it. They told Feanor "none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru who thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art."

How could you possibly blame Feanor for being influenced by the greatest being in all of the world?! Even Hurin the Steadfast saw all things crooked after spending a while in Melkor's presence.

The only difference is, Melian reached out and helped Hurin. Feanor, on the other hand, was not helped, but was actually punished by the Valar! Punished, for being influenced by Ea's most powerful being! There is NO justification for such a punishment.

And why, I ask you, was Melkor free to spread his lies and sow discord in the world?

Because the Valar let him loose amongst the Elves!

The Valar deal proudly and incorrectly far too often! I think that we should definitely get rid of one of them.

I think Manwe in particular should be given the boot.

Tolkien has this to say about Manwe, in HoME X-

He (Manwë) has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering-- even "keeping the status quo"- to the loss of all creative power, and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations.

Is that the sort of person you want to keep around to perform tasks?

+ + Manwe has to go!

[Anguirel]

A sudden flurry of controversy...

Ungoliant: 2
Manwe: 2
Ingwe: 3
Curufin: 2
Feanor: 1

Originally Posted by Gothmog

I've never liked Caranthir. Just listen to the "surname" the Dark.

Clear signs of prejudice from this villainous Balrog!

And the most despicable act of all was Curufin, beaten in battle by Beren, behind Berens back aiming and shooting, not one but TWO arrows at Luthien.

Yeah, well, her lovey-dovey singing and his whining were getting irritating. I would've done the same. Beren hardly played fair jumping on Curufin's neck, so shooting him in the back is an adequate response. And really, anything is acceptable to stop Little Miss Omnipotent.

revenge is a critical threat to the good atmosphere on the island.

And makes for good viewing!

I'm tempted to switch to Manwe, but only if my fellow anti-Ingweists give the go-ahead...

[The Perky Ent]

++Feanor


I shall continue my wrath against Feanor until the end of time (or until he gets voted off)


Useful votes: 11
Useless votes: 1

[Formendacil]

I think we need to get rid of Curufin. The main reason being that there is a good deal of confusion in Valinor. Since we're all still speaking Quenya, Curufinwe is the name of two Elves, and that is a confusion that is most befuddling...

Therefore, to eliminate this nasty little confusion, I am voting...

++Curufinwe the Younger

[mormegil]

So we are opposed to voting off Feanor because it's not his fault he's a prat but we will kick Ingwe off because he was actually loyal and obedient and Melkor found that they could not be twisted to his evil ways so he more or less left them alone. Interesting!

Ingwe is great, I think he is rather one of the more intelligent of the elves. He never faltered in his decisions and he held his people together. They were able to live in happiness because they never left Valinor. He sounds like a great ruler to me.

[the phantom]

Ingwe off because he was actually loyal and obedient and Melkor found that they could not be twisted to his evil ways

If Melkor would've made Ingwe and the Vanyar his focus he would've eventually gotten to them too. The only reason he didn't was because, as you said, "he more or less left them alone".

No elf could remain unchanged if Melkor turned his full concentration their way.

However, I never suggested voting off Ingwe. I agree that he should be kept around. ALL THE ELVES SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE THIS ROUND!!

The whole incident with Melkor and the trees was started by the Valar. If you are going to vote anyone off, vote one of them off. I would suggest Manwe, who, according to Tolkien himself, has no creativity and can't deal with perilous situations.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I'm tempted to switch to Manwe, but only if my fellow anti-Ingweists give the go-ahead...

I'd prefer to keep Manwe for the time being. Although his judgment may be off sometimes, he provides firm leadership, which is extremely useful in these situations. Melkor is already sowing the seeds of discontent. Without Manwe to keep the other Valar in line, the whole camp could descend into chaos. Interesting viewing perhaps, but not very condusive to task completion. And you never know when those Eagles may come in handy.

Originally Posted by mormegil

So we are opposed to voting off Feanor because it's not his fault he's a prat but we will kick Ingwe off because he was actually loyal and obedient and Melkor found that they could not be twisted to his evil ways so he more or less left them alone. Interesting!

No. We want to kick Ingwe off because, while he may be loyal and good and worthy and all that, he makes dreadfully dull viewing. I mean, name one thing of note that he ever did that did not involve going with the status quo and staying put (like a pudding, as Lal put it. ).

Feanor, on the other hand, makes compelling viewing, whatever you may think of him personally.

That said, I am not averse to the idea of booting out one of the many Noldorin Elves. My inclination would be to go for Amrod or Amras - who are, let's face it, pretty interchangeable.

[Gothmog]

Clear signs of prejudice from this villainous Balrog!

Just look at that! Talking about prejudice and in the next breath assuming a Balrog beeing something by nature evil? How about a good Balrog? We are just misunderstood. I despise this kind of this...in lack of a better word inconsistent behaviour!

So you don't like women, do you Anguirel? A bit sexist, eh? Well, this reality tvshow already has too much men in it. I mean, you talk about what makes good viewing. Think of all the flirting, intrigues and love triangels could be created if some more women were allowed. That usually draws a lot of viewers to this kind of show.

And accuse Beren of being a coward. I lack of words! Oh wait, here they come: He jumped on Curufin's neck AFTER Curufin took Luthien. Attacking women!
Plus, he jumped away from Celegorms attack and:

and the Leap of Beren is renowned among Men and Elves.

I agree that part of the blame for the trees being destroyed is Valars. But wouldn't it be wiser to vote on someone else than Manwe? I think he may be of great use later.

[the phantom]

And you never know when those Eagles may come in handy.

We don't need Manwe's eagles.

We have Tilion and Arien. They can handle all the up-in-the-air stuff. And later, we'll have Earendil. And if we are really in desperate need of air power, we can have Melkor make a batch of dragons.

he provides firm leadership

What good is Manwe's leadership if he's leading in the wrong direction? Not to mention, he freezes up and goes blank in difficult situations.

Melkor is a better leader. Sure, he's affiliated with evil, but according to the text he has a share of the gifts of all of his fellow Valar. That means that he can somewhat relate to all of them, and can understand what his fellow Valar are capable of, therefore he would be better than anyone at directing them.

And as far as him sowing seeds of discord, he wouldn't be doing that if everyone agreed to follow him, would he?

We need to get rid of Manwe while we have the chance!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

We have Tilion and Arien. They can handle all the up-in-the-air stuff. And later, we'll have Earendil.

While they may be good for carting heavenly bodies and the like around the skies, they are not much use when it comes to the precision stuff, like aerial reconaissance, rescue missions and personnel/cargo transport.

Originally Posted by the phantom

And if we are really in desperate need of air power, we can have Melkor make a batch of dragons.

Problem is, we'll have to wait a long time while he works his way through the wingless prototypes. Then again, Balrogs have wings, don't they? Perhaps we could rely on them ...

But no, I think Manwe should stay for now. Later, if and when Thorondor joins the show and another potential leader has emerged, I will not be averse to the idea of booting him out.

As for Melkor, I am not sure about him being appointed leader. I don't know, but there's just something about that guy that I don't trust.

[mormegil]

But we would need Manwe's eagles for the protection of Gondolin, which is my favorite Nolorian city.

[Lalaith]

And if we get rid of the blond ponce, the Vanyar might elect another, slightly less obsequious leader to replace him.

That Indis always had potential, I thought...I mean, look at her kids and her grandkids, they turned out pretty good...the best of the Noldor...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It might have been Ingwe's idea to throw a party, but since there is no evidence I hold Manwe responsibel !

++Manwe

[the phantom]

the precision stuff, like aerial reconaissance, rescue missions and personnel/cargo transport

we would need Manwe's eagles for the protection of Gondolin

You know, I just thought- why would booting Manwe out get rid of the Eagles?

The eagles don't live and die with Manwe. They have their own life.

Don't you think it would be a good thing to get the eagles out from under the inept thumb of Manwe. I imagine whoever was elected as the new Valar leader would wield the eagles more wisely.

[mormegil]

One other important thing we are forgetting if Manwe is gone will Gandalf ever come to M-e? I don't thing anybody but the powerful leader Manwe could have convinced him to come.