How pointy were Elrond's ears?

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, this topic has probably been argued into the ground, but here goes anyway. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

A quote on another thread got my mind boiling:

JRRT states that elven and human hroar, ie bodies, are genetically the same, hence possibility of interbreeding between these races. That's fea, the spirit/soul, which makes the difference. When elven fate is changed to human, the body stays as it was, fea changes...

If Elrond was half-elven, were his ears half pointy? What about Elros? What about Elros's son, Vardamir Nolimon?

And where the heck did this pointy eared notion come from? Where is it in Tolkien?

[Birdland]

Well, word has it that Elrond kept a pencil sharpener on his bedside table...

But seriously folks: the pointed ear thing goes back to the Greeks, who portrayed the half-goat demi-god Pan as having pointed ears.

Shakespeare picked up on this and used the reference of pointed ears on elves to denote that they were of another, pre-Christian - and well, lets face it - souless race of beings. (There may have been earlier references, but Shakespeare made it popular.) 17th Century artists and illustrators picked up on this and ran with it.

And so today, pixies, elves, leprauchans, demons, vampires, and other beings "who ain't like us", are portrayed with pointy ears.

[Orald]

Elrond would hae had rounded ears as I see it. Since elves are built just like humans, but on a somewhat greater scale, they wouldn't have different ears. The pointy eared elf camp has no backing, except a small excerpt from Letters:

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf).

But this quote is misinterpreted, Tolkien is describing the apearence of Hobbit's to Illustrators at the Houghton Millin Company. And when they think of elves they think of Santa's elves and not Tolkien's because this was before LotR and the explosion of the fantasy genre. Just as Tolkien stated, Eldar aren't elves as we know them, it was just the best translation.

Elemmakil speaks to Voronwë about Tuor:

But you have brought to knowledge of the Way a mortal Man-for by his eyes I perceive his kin

Elemmakil says nothing of the ears anywere, could it be because they were rounded just like his?

I am sure there are other quotes out there, but I don't have all of the texts.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Elves did not have pointy ears, no.

Tolkien said (probably in the appendixes somewhere; I'm not renowned for using actual quotes...) something about the myths of elves flying, and having pointy ears, and being able to magik their way out of any situation, were all human-invented legends that had come about since the Fading of the Elves; since fact had been blurred. Elves, as you say, are genetically the same as humans; the reason they are more beautiful and graceful than humans is purely because of the sheer force of will of an Elf's fea.

Why don't the feas of men make their bodies immortal, and beautiful, like the Elves do? Maybe it's because Elves have a closer affinity to the Earth than Men. Men live for eighty years or so, and then dpart to another world; however Elves are bound to stay for hundreds of thousands, even Millions, of years. They love the works of creation, of nature, and, since they are going to be with them for millenia, they may as well take pleasure in them. They find greater joy in the world than Men, and accordingly, are more graceful and beautiful; more a part of the Earth itself than Men are.

[Gabo Darvas]

If an Elf woman becomes a human's wife she will loose this kind of being, won't she? Won't she be a part of the earth?

[littlemanpoet]

A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish';

[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] You had me virtually demoralized and then ready to pounce for a couple seconds there, Durelen. I'm saddened and a little disgruntled that Tolkien actually imagined Hobbits to have slightly pointy ears. Ah well. I appreciate your distinction regarding BEFORE and AFTER LOTR was published.

Why don't the feas of men make their bodies immortal, and beautiful, like the Elves do? Maybe it's because Elves have a closer affinity to the Earth than Men.

The basic reason, Gwaihir, is that that's the Gift/Doom Eru placed on them. All other maybe's are the result of Eru's purpose.

If an Elf woman becomes a human's wife she will loose this kind of being, won't she? Won't she be a part of the earth?

[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

It depends on whether the elf-woman becomes a human's wife willingly or not. If unwilling, her fea certainly remains elvish. If willing, that's a choice made and her fea becomes human.

I'm not sure what you mean by "be a part of the earth", but I'm guessing 'like an elf'. Perhaps you're thinking of how Arwen laid herself down on Cerin Amroth and gave up her life. I would distinguish between voluntarily dying and the choice to become human. Aragorn also voluntarily died so both human and elf could do that. Arwen became human. Elrond said that he would not see Arwen until the world's end. So an elf-woman choosing a man for husband chooses humanity and humanity's gift/doom. Body becomes dust, spirit departs beyond the veils of this world.

[Aralaithiel]

Well, this elf is keeping her pointy ears, so they are just as sharp as her fea! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Intersting musings from you guys.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The basic reason, Gwaihir, is that that's the Gift/Doom Eru placed on them. All other maybe's are the result of Eru's purpose.

And what form did the Doom take? That Men's feas don't wish to stay on the Earth; instead they seek further. Just as Elves and Elves alone can 'key' their way into the Undying lands, so the souls of Men and Men alone can key into heaven. It's an essential nature thing that you can't change (unless Eru wishes it to be so).

When I said 'more a part of the Earth' I meant that Elves love the Earth more than Men, thye find more joy in it; and their essential nature is to stay with it till the end.

[littlemanpoet]

I hate to break it to you, milady Queen, but I see no pointed ears. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I completely agree with you, Gwaihir.

[Aralaithiel]

Waaaahhhhhh! You're spoiling my fantasy, littlemanpoet!!!! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
Don't make me stab you with my mutated pointy ears! LOL!!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Or burn you with my (yet another mutation)"flaming red" hair!!! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
OK...I'll quit being silly now. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

OH...I do wish to thank you for addressing me properly! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Aralaithiel ]

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Aralaithiel ]

[littlemanpoet]

He says in an aside to his aide: "In sooth, she doth act like a queen..."

"What did I say, your highness, milady? Ah, eh, I said, 'In sooth, she's the fairest I've ever seen' - milady." Bows yet again. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Aralaithiel]

Watch it, littlemanpoet! It is not a good idea to incur the redheaded Eldarin Queen's rath! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
But, I kinda like you! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Will have to keep you around! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
You definitely know how to talk to us queens!
Very good diplomacy skills!

[Daegwenn]

This is very interesting.

Some theories that I have come up with may sound foolish, but I will share them and you guys can laugh if you want.

Elves are the very essence of Earthly Mana. The power in which helps all things grow green on earth. As long as the earth remains as she is, unharmed and unmolested, the elves would remain.

Whether or not I believe that there are spirits like this out there in our own world, is as enigmatic and complicated as the human brain itself--but I sincerely doubt it.

~~Daegwenn

[littlemanpoet]

Ah, I had not noticed the red hair before, oh Queen. Most humbly may I say that red hair suits the Queen Aralaithiel very well, as does her name. (Bows but does not look away...) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Elves are the very essence of Earthly Mana. The power in which helps all things grow green on earth. As long as the earth remains as she is, unharmed and unmolested, the elves would remain.

Pray, what is "earthly mana"? I think I can guess, but if you would be so kind as to inform me...

And if the Queen Aralaithiel carries this essence, I must by all means know of it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Joy]

Daegwen, I am the red-headed Cherokkee/Irish.
Aralaithiel is a red-headed Scot/Irish.

[Gabo Darvas]

Thanks for understanding my English stammer, littlemanpoet! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Daegwenn]

earthly mana...eh...well, it means energy or spirit.

~~Daegwenn

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Daegwenn ]

[Aralaithiel]

Yep, got that "earthly manna', I do! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

In my Earth (NOT Middle Earth)existence, I am dark blonde, gray-blue eyed & Scotch/Irish. In ME, I am redheaded, pointy eared, gray-blue eyed, and Noldoran. Definitely a mutant with that red hair!

Boy, littlemanpoet! You sure do know how to appease us queens! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

'Tis only fitting that a queen should be pleased - ah, that is, appeased.

Red hair has always been the favorite of us bards. Firey, whether Cherokee/Irish or Scotch/Irish. Or mutant elvish for that matter. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Daegwen: Elves are earthly energy or spirit? In Middle Earth? Is this as in "Gaia"?

[Bêthberry]

I think the longer elves lived in Arda, the longer their ears grew. (Just like our noses keep growing as we age.)

As the ears grew longer, they would begin to lose the roundedness on the top, and so the cartiledge would become more pronounced and hence pointy.

Part of the long dememberment.

[VanimaEdhel]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think the longer elves lived in Arda, the longer their ears grew. (Just like our noses keep growing as we age.)

As the ears grew longer, they would begin to lose the roundedness on the top, and so the cartiledge would become more pronounced and hence pointy.

Part of the long dememberment.

Thanks for pushing things back on track, Bethy.

And for the record, when people figure out scientific answers to Tolkien-related questions, they do get a big applause from my side of the computer - I love knowing new reasons to swear to people it "could be real". And I didn't know our noses keep growing as we age - is that true?

Anyway, wasn't there something in Tolkien's letters, to answer lmp's question about Elf ears? I seem to remember reading that they were in the shape of "mallorn leaves." Now, granted, since I've never bumped into a Mallorn tree, they could have leaves shaped like Ford Mustangs for all I know, but I believe he intended the mallorn leaf to round to a slight point at the end. Not like a little pointy object one can use as a weapon, I don't think, but just a bit of a tip on the end. That's always been my impression of the mallorn leaf.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

I think the longer elves lived in Arda, the longer their ears grew. (Just like our noses keep growing as we age.)

Does this mean that their noses kept growing just like ours do? That conjours up images of Elves with hooters like anteaters, maybe even like Oliphaunts. I would imagine the Elvish plastic surgeons were kept very busy.

Originally Posted by VanimaEdhel

Anyway, wasn't there something in Tolkien's letters, to answer lmp's question about Elf ears? I seem to remember reading that they were in the shape of "mallorn leaves."

This what I tend to think, that the Elves' ears tended to reflect the nature around them. Also, I like to think that maybe as they were tied to Arda, some aspects of their physical appearance could have reflected that. Perhaps this would explain why Elves tended towards being tall, to echo the trees?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Does this mean that their noses kept growing just like ours do? That conjours up images of Elves with hooters like anteaters, maybe even like Oliphaunts.

*stares wide-eyed with disbelief* Wow... some slang just ain't the same across the Atlantic.

However... I didn't know noses kept growing. Beth, do you trick us? Even if not, I just found my public excuse for my belief in pointy-eared Elves. Far be it for me to argue canonicty (book versus reader) with an unsuspecting innocent... I'll just tell them that really old Elves get pointy ears.

[Findegil]

I am sorry, but isn't it true that our ears do grow all over our lives as did our noses? If so, then were ist the point that makes the Old-Elven-Ears pointier than that of our elderly manish people?

To be more serious:
Beside the letter, we have also an entry in one of Tolkiens lexicons of the an elvish speech in which he connected the word for ear with that for leave because as he said, the elvish ears were leave shaped an more pointy.

But I also can't see anybody, even an aducated middle-earth Quency looking at the ears to decised if it is mankind of elvekind that he is looking at. I have seen a lot of manish males and females with slightly pointed ears.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Writing this message a new thought came to me: Wouldn't it be a good idea to make a collection of fotos of such ears that seemed elvish to us? At least we will become a clear evidence that being genetically "identical" even more than men and elve will not produce one standard earshape.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fea

*stares wide-eyed with disbelief* Wow... some slang just ain't the same across the Atlantic.

Now I've cottoned on to what you mean, I've just had hysterics! I just hope that this doesn't go into the 'Freudian slips/typos' thread! Tee-hee!

The notion of pointed Elvish ears is supported by a small snippet in the Elvish Etymologies. In the entry LAS, the stem for leaf (which is seen in Legolas "Greenleaf"), Tolkien mentions that Elves have pointed and leaf-shaped ears.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ah, just hopefully not like maple leaves. The next question would obviously be "Just how many points are on an Elf's ear?".

Lal: I couldn't stop laughing either. When I finally managed to communicate to my mother why I was curled up in a little ball giggling, she started to laugh also. Like I said... some slang just ain't the same. I mean... can you only imagine?

[Bêthberry]

Right, Fea, one would hope neither maple nor oak leaves.

However, elder leaves might be more applicable for the Eldar.

[VanimaEdhel]

Originally Posted by Tirno

The notion of pointed Elvish ears is supported by a small snippet in the Elvish Etymologies. In the entry LAS, the stem for leaf (which is seen in Legolas "Greenleaf"), Tolkien mentions that Elves have pointed and leaf-shaped ears.

The question now has to be asked: "Did Legolas have green ears then?" Hmm...dark hair and green ears or blonde hair and human-colored ears? I'm sorry, kind of one of those questions in jest that you just have to ask.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

If Elrond was half-elven, were his ears half pointy? What about Elros? What about Elros's son, Vardamir Nolimon?

And where the heck did this pointy eared notion come from? Where is it in Tolkien?

This thread caught my attention, and so might as well add my two cents (or pence, or whatever ).

If one were to observe enough people, one would see that there are many different types of ear shapes. And I'm not just speaking about large or small; some are more open than others, etc. Could our elvish ancestors have had a more open large "leaf-like" type, while those of us with more human blood may have the smaller and closed curled-up type? And over time the intermingling and variations continued. To say 'ear' is like saying 'leaf' and accounting for all of the leaves on all of the trees that are now and have ever been.

The mind boggles.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by alatar

This thread caught my attention, and so might as well add my two cents (or pence, or whatever ).

If one were to observe enough people, one would see that there are many different types of ear shapes. And I'm not just speaking about large or small; some are more open than others, etc. Could our elvish ancestors have had a more open large "leaf-like" type, while those of us with more human blood may have the smaller and closed curled-up type? And over time the intermingling and variations continued. To say 'ear' is like saying 'leaf' and accounting for all of the leaves on all of the trees that are now and have ever been.

The mind boggles.

A polygenetic trait? I wonder how many loci are needed to account for all of the variation in ear shape...

I am a member of the elves-do-not-have-pointy-ears camp. At least, not as pointy as the Peter Jackson ears. I envision something more like the slightly pointed ears I see in some people every day. I seem to recall a quote in the Silmarillion in which elves and Numenoreans could only be distinguished by the different light level in the eyes, though I can't check it until I go home next weekend.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

As for the original question of this thread: How pointy were Elrond's ears?

Hard to believe no one has mentioned GENETICS to this point, but the answer is to be found therein. The offspring of an Elf and a Man will NOT have "half-pointy" ears; he will either have ears that are fully pointed, or regular Man-shaped ears. There is no way to tell with Elrond since his genetic pool is about evenly divided as far as Elf and Man ancestors go. We can assume that his ears were fully pointed since he was grouped with Elven-kind, and yet he only made that choice after the end of the First Age.

Hmm...to be facetious, I think I've just found the reason Elrond chose to be of Elf-kind and Elros chose to be of Man-kind: because their ears perfectly suited them for it! Elrond's were pointed, and Elros' weren't! THEY'RE NOT IDENTICAL TWINS!!! AAAHH!!!

Seriously, there's no way to tell for sure, as far as I can see. Which isn't very far.