Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Encaitare]

I've asked one of my friends if she'd be interested in playing since I've told her a lot about the game. She has registered here but hasn't yet posted. Her name is Laitaine, so if she chooses to join, be nice.

Name: Encaitare Wormtongue

Age: never ask a lady...

Race: puny mortal, thought to have come from somewhere around Rohan

Gender: XX chromosome type.

Weapons: words, of course

Appearance: rather skulky and unwashed.

Personality: a loner whom no one knows very well, or even wants to, for that matter.

History: she'll occasionally walk around the village muttering under her breath about her one true love and how he told her they'd run away together but then he had to go and get himself killed by midgets.

[mormegil]

I would be an Alchemist in our village. Again if needed to have fewer players I will sit this one out though I'm excited to play. Oddwen do you know when we will get started?

[the guy who be short]

Play... not play... play... not play.

If you decide to go into two villages, I'll play. Otherwise, I'll sit it out. Don't ask me for the logic behind that, there isn't any.

(If for any reason you need to get rid of villagers, I should go first. I've been playing since game 5... and moderated 4... and played it 3... )

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that whether or not we have two games rather depends upon Oddwen - whether she wants to impose a limit on the number of players and what she has in mind to address "game balance" issues.

Also, I am refraining from choosing a role until I hear how she want to play it. She may have firm ideas on roles, role-playing etc (like Mithalwen did).

Oddwen?

Bear in mind that, if we do have a second game running, we will need another moderator. Any volunteers? Also, we will need to address the issue of who plays in which game.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I have been wondering about the shirriff role. Lmp noted on the Werewolf VII thread that, being unable to declare themselves while both were still alive, they had little influence on the game. I agree to an extent, although they can come into their own (albeit probably for no more than one day) when one is killed by the Wolves and the other therefore becomes a known innocent. I do think it somewhat artificial if they are unable to declare themselves while they are both alive but the survivor is able to do so when the other dies. On the other hand, allowing them to declare while alive does make them very powerful.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this or on the other roles or game balance generally?

Well, since you brought it up and it's a pet topic of mine, I agree on the artificiality you point out. On the other hand, as I mentioned on VII, there are enough experienced players that in any size game, it seems to me that the shirriffs are an unnecessary role. There are other ways for the villagers to take the iniative from the werewolves; they just have to be creative enough. I do certainly enjoy playing a shirriff, but the role, when played right, may be too powerful whereas when artificially limited, doesn't seem worth having.

[Laitaine]

Hey there, count me in. I'm rather new to this site, so if the werewolves could refrain from killing me right off the bat...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Laitaine

Hey there, count me in. I'm rather new to this site, so if the werewolves could refrain from killing me right off the bat...

Ooh be careful, that kind of talk will make you look suspicious and you know newness doesn't mean you won't have a furry, fanged and bloodthirsty nature!!!

Welcome to the Downs though!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I thought the Werewolf novelty might actually wear off but it looks like its popularity is growing somewhat exponentially. I'm sitting out the games in the near future (despite the obvious temptation of playing with Sauce and Mith - *sighs*).

Just to let you know. If you are running two simultaneous games this week or any other time. I'm pretty much always free so if you ever need a moderator on short notice, you know where to find me.

*I know I've done it before, it's just in case you're desperate*

I think there's a fairly long list of future moderators anyway.

But haven't there been concerns raised about simultaneous games in the past?

[Meneltarmacil]

I'm not sure on the idea that Shirriffs shouldn't be allowed to reveal themselves. If they did reveal themselves, the wolves would probably kill one of them the next Night, and the other one the Night after that, etc. but in that case, they would have two Days to influence everybody's voting and might put an end to the wolves rather quickly. The Shirriffs would have even more Days to work with if, as I had suggested, there were more than two. The policy one takes toward the Shirriffs would seem to depend on how long one wants the game to go on.

[littlemanpoet]

Tell you what, I'm sitting out the next game to make room.

[the guy who be short]

Hmm, I think I'll also sit the next one out, on second thoughts. I've played far too many, and I don't think we should spill over into two games at once.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Agreed. By the way, I thought the cobbler was a very interesting addition to the game (and not just because I so obviously benefited from it!) As for the Shiriffs, even though they cannot reveal themselves, it does give the villagers that slight advantage which I think is a good thing.

[Firefoot]

About the Shirriffs... they're intended purpose is to give two villagers who know each other is innocent, not to give the entire village two known innocents (though this does help the villagers tremendously).

If more space is needed, I would sit this one out; I've been involved in every one except II... I'd really like to play, though, since like I said, I probably won't be playing in anymore for a while.

(Sorry, I just like lists and I want to know who all has signed up... )

Azaelia (She hasn't been online since the 3rd, though... not sure what's going on there.)
Menel
Nonnacedak
Durelin
Gurthang
Arcticstorm
Encai
Alcarillo
SpM
SamwiseGamgee
Wilwa
Oromin (?)
Boromir88
CaptainofDespair
Firefoot*
Morm*
Nilpaurion
Dancing Spawn
Mithalwen (?)
Laitaine

*Is willing to sit out

That's 20 people.

Like SpM, I'd like to know how Oddwen's going to be running her game before choosing a role, etc.

[Oddwen]

Okay okay okay okay --

First off, I have no objections to a large game. If length is a problem, we could have multiple lynchings or we could try the Werehamster role to speed things along.
I think the Werehamster is interesting. He is like a Werewolf, but he is on his own team. He kills one person during the NIGHT. If the Seer dreams of him, he dies. He wins only if he is the only person left at the end of the game. To make it more Middle-earth, we could call it a "Black Beorning".

I think there was some fuss about multiple games, that could get *really* confusing.

Another thing I'd like to propose concerns the Cursed Villager. Up to now, only an Ord has been able to be cursed - I'd like to see the Gifteds get an equal chance.

If the Wolves pick the Ranger as a target during the night, the Ranger becomes a Werewolf *and* his/her polarity is reversed - they will now guard during the DAY. If a Werewolf is lynched, the Ranger can save that Wolf, however in doing so both Lynchee and Ranger's identities will be revealed. i.e.:

The Phantom stepped up to the noose. As the handle was about to be pulled, a form flew at the executioner, knocking him back.
"You shall not have him!" Feanor of the Peredhil cried, and she and Phantom fled the scene. The villagers were shocked - they had not even suspected Fea - and now they knew that both she and The Phantom were Wolves.

(The Ranger must make their choice during the NIGHT)
If the Wolves choose the cursed Hunter at night - he/she becomes a Werewolf and his/her polarity is reversed, and will hunt during the DAY. If the cursed hunter is lynched, he/she will take an INNOCENT target down with them. (The Hunter must make their choice during the NIGHT)

I'm wondering if it would be better if the Hunter becomes a Werewolf, or just discovers who the Wolves are.

The Seer would become a Werewolf and try to dream about the other Gifted villagers.

A Sherriff would become a Werewolf and be privy to both Werewolf conversations and Sherriffly conversations.

Regarding abscences: Please don't sign up if you can't make the entire game. Please post once per day. Please vote once per day. I will allow ONE abscence per player per game. Any more than that, and you will suddenly and mysteriously wake up dead the next DAY. (If the game stretches to over two weeks, I'll stretch the abscences to two.)



I'm planning on setting up the thread on Friday Morning, and the first NIGHT will occur 24 hours from then.


Info on your gravesite...er, village:

It's a little town high up in the mountains north of Fornost. It's almost always snowy and cold, but it is a very close-knit community. It used to be on the main road to a granite mine, but the mine failed several years back. The supply trains still make it through twice a year.
Its name is Hamlet.

As to role playing...Hmm...I shall have to ruminate that and answer in the morning.
More tomorrow.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Eomer

I'm sitting out the games in the near future (despite the obvious temptation of playing with Sauce and Mith - *sighs*).

*shakes head* Tell me about it.

Are you sure you can handle this big a village, Oddwen? *concerned look*

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I considered playing in this game... but I can't. Too busy. But Oddy, if you need a retired Moddess Maia for anything, I'm just a PM away.

[Mithalwen]

If there is a werehamster, I definitely want to play...

[Firefoot]

The werehamster sounds really cool. A question: if the werehamster is still alive after all the wolves are dead, would the game still continue?

[Saurreg]

Werehamster sounds whimsical. Reminds me of the psychotic white rabbit from MPNTHG...

I guess any death for the rabid rodent would involve lotsa stomping and squashing.

[Meneltarmacil]

Remember, I might not be able to start playing until Saturday, so I might miss a little if it starts before then.

But as to the Werehamster, I don't think that would really be fair unless the villagers were allowed to lynch more than one person per Day. If you have the wolves killing someone during the night and the Werehamster killing someone else that same Night, it wouldn't be all that fair to the villagers since they would still only lynch one person during the Day.

And what if the Mythomaniac is reintroduced and by some chance becomes a Werehamster? Does that mean three people die each night?

PS: I've got a 20-sided die handy since TGWBS isn't here with his abacus.

[Oddwen]

My browser quit, else this post would be longer and less hurried.


Okay, the Werehamster is in -

Originally Posted by Ff

if the werehamster is still alive after all the wolves are dead, would the game still continue?

Since the game is called "Werewolf", I would say that the villagers would automatically kill the Hamster after the Wolves are dead. Unless on the last day there's one Villager, one Wolf and the Hamster and the Wolf is lynched, then the Hamster would win.

Since NIGHT will bring about so many deaths, it would be wise to allow multiple lynchings.

The 24 hour DAY/NIGHT period is working well for everyone, right? No issues with that?

And any other thoughts about the Cursed Gifteds?

As to the Sherriffs - I agree with SpM & lmp about the artificiality. Morm's guidelines seem good to me. (I'd link to his post, but my browser's being funky.)

And Menel - the game looks to start on Saturday morning, so you're looking good so far.

'kay, so the roles so far are as follows:

3 Werewolves
2 Sherriffs
1 Werehamster/Beorning
1 Seer
1 Hunter
1 Guardian/Ranger
1 Cursed

And thank you, Fea.

[Meneltarmacil]

And Menel - the game looks to start on Saturday morning, so you're looking good so far.

Thanks. I'll probably get back early afternoon sometime, so I won't miss much.

And it looks like Nilpaurion Felagund's playing too... THIS could get interesting.

A quick question: What times do Day and Night start in this game?

[Mithalwen]

Bear in mind that the Werehamster is just as likely to kill wolves as innocents.. I am right in thinking that the WH's aim is just to be last person alive..... so it is in their interests to get teh wolf numbers down. If the wolves win(S)he dies.....

[Meneltarmacil]

Seeing as my original role wouldn't fit well with the village's setting high in the mountains, I've decided on a new one: Ye Olde Knighte. Ye Knighte hath a rather high opinion of himselfe and boasteth frequently. He also speaketh in Ye Olde Englishe a lot.

This is assuming that such roleplaying is permitted in this village, of course.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Hi, Oddwen. I've searched high and low for info on the sherrifs, but can't seem to find any. Do you think you could be so bountifully gracious as to enlighten me?

Oh, and here's a thought- how about setting out the roles so that everyone is perfectly clear about what's happening?

[mormegil]

As far as the cursed gifteds go I'm not overly fond of that idea. I would say that if you do want to curse a gifted that they would simply loose those powers and become a wolf. Though the shirriff has no power and therefore would be privy to information they otherwise wouldn't. If the shirriff's are allowed to reveal themselves that would be awful to have a known innocent become a wolf.

I have a couple of requests. One is that we don't use Real Life problems as an excuse. Last game was a great example with Oromin. I realize that she had true RL problems so I sympathize with that but I got to thinking that it would be easy to make up problems and use that as a strategy. I am against that. Again Oromin did nothing wrong because they are real problems but I don't think we should invent things to hide us innocent or guilty.

Acting suspicous is a very viable strategy that has worked well for both wolves and innocents but it should be just that, a strategy. I realize that we are all trying to have fun but it can be highly counterproductive to the village when your only goal is to be lynched. The problem I see is that it can hurt all involved. If there are merely innocent than we spend one day killing an innocent and not getting any useful information. If they are gifted we automatically loose one from our ranks and if they are a wolf then the wolves will be left with only 2 after the first day. Does anybody else have any feelings on this?

[Encaitare]

One is that we don't use Real Life problems as an excuse.

We should not use RL problems to get lynched, that is for sure. It's generally better to have someone around who is alive but can't vote than to waste a day lynching someone who might be innocent. But, there's no harm in saying "I won't be able to post or vote tomorrow because I'm visiting my great-aunt" or whatever.

Acting suspicous is a very viable strategy that has worked well for both wolves and innocents but it should be just that, a strategy.

I agree... to "pull a Nilp" is really not helpful...

[Gil-Galad]

might as wel lsign me back up, i'm kinda over my family troubles so theres nothing better to do...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Enca

But, there's no harm in saying "I won't be able to post or vote tomorrow because I'm visiting my great-aunt" or whatever.

Fine but, as I suggested previously, all such OOC comments should go either in this thread or a separate admin thread. They should not become part of the game discussions because that it what gives rise to the danger that morm mentioned.

I am a big fan of Oddwen's rule to allow only one absence per player in the game (although there will need to be some flexibility in the event of unforeseen circumstances). But:

Please post once per day.

I presume that this should be "Please post at least once per day".

Originally Posted by morm

Acting suspicous is a very viable strategy that has worked well for both wolves and innocents but it should be just that, a strategy. I realize that we are all trying to have fun but it can be highly counterproductive to the village when your only goal is to be lynched.

I agree. It is up to each player how he or she plays the game. There might be valid reasons why a player suggests that he or she be lynched, so it should not be prohibited outright. But having your goal as to be lynched is unhelpful to your team, whichever team you are on. This is a team game, and everyone should approach it as such and have as their primary aim the victory of their team, whichever it may be.

Any thoughts on perhaps banning players voting for themselves?

Now, for the proposed roles ...

I do think that there is a danger in over-complicating things. If we have new roles or change the existing roles in any way, then we all need to be very clear about how they are going to work and how they might affect the game balance.

I like the idea of the Werehamster, but its introduction means that multiple lynchings must be permitted. Also, we need to be clear on the Werehamster's winning conditions. What happens if, on the final DAY, the Werehamster remains with only one other Villager. Presumably if the other Villager is a Werewolf, the Wolves win. But, if he or she is an innocent Villager, does the Werehamster win? Otherwise, they will vote for each other and both will be lynched meaning no one wins, which would be a rather disappointing result. And how can they both be lynched when there's no one left to lynch them?

What is the rationale for the Werehamster dying if the Seer dreams of them? That seems rather random to me and surely the Werehamster has a difficult enough job as it is without that.

I'm not sure about Gifted Villagers being able to be Cursed. I think that it will give far too much power to the Wolves if a Gifted Villager becomes one of them. I agree with morm that either the Cursed Villager should be a separate role or that a Gifted and Cursed Villager becoming a Wolf simply means that they lose their Gifted Powers. Or how about they become another Werehamster?

Originally Posted by Oddwen

'kay, so the roles so far are as follows:

3 Werewolves
2 Sherriffs
1 Werehamster/Beorning
1 Seer
1 Hunter
1 Guardian/Ranger
1 Cursed

This should be OK with 20 or so players. But, if the Shirriffs are able to declare themselves, then there should probably be one more Werewolf. Oddwen, how do you plan dealing with Shirriffs? Can they declare whenever they want, only once one dies, or not at all?

Are we having a Cobbler? I rather liked that role.

Also, when do you plan closing recruitment? On the basis of Firefoot's list (and with Mith's enthusiasm for the addition of the Werehamster role), we have 20 players. But we need confirmation from Azaelia and Oromin whether they will be playing, as the number of players will affect how the roles should operate. I suggest that you set a deadline for them to confirm (and for any new recruits), following which the roles can be finalised.

The 24 hour DAY/NIGHT period is working well for everyone, right? No issues with that?

No problem. Although I prefer there to be scope for DAYS to end earlier when an unassailable majority has been reached in the voting and for NIGHTS to end earlier when all the choices have been notified.

Which reminds me, Oddwen, are we having retractable or non-retractable votes? I prefer the latter, but I'm not too bothered.

Originally Posted by SamwiseGamgee

Oh, and here's a thought- how about setting out the roles so that everyone is perfectly clear about what's happening?

The mod will post the full rules on the first day. Reading the first posts in each of the previous games should help in understanding how they have worked to date.

Edit: 21 players currently, with Gil.

[Nonnacedak]

I have never played before but I would like to try it out if I could. Mormegil talked me into it. Thanks

[Meneltarmacil]

I'd like the cobbler to be in there too.

And something I'm wondering about: If the Werehamster attacks the Cursed Villager, what happens? Does he/she become another hamster and do the two hamsters then work together like the wolves?

[Alcarillo]

I too enjoyed the cobbler in the last game and would like to see a cobbler in this one. I think the werehamster, however, is a bit too complicated and I'd like to see it go, along with the cursed gifteds. I just don't like the idea of three teams. I would have either another werewolf or another cursed (and ungifted) villager with such a large village just to even out the advantages of so many villagers over so few werewolves. And like the Saucepan Man said, I think non-retractable votes are the best way to go.

P.S. Credit goes to Oddwen for my new avvie

[Firefoot]

If we do go with a flexibility of Days/Nights ending early, you have to be careful with how you do it. I made a mistake in the last game of starting a Day too soon after a short night; anyone who thought about it realized then that the wolf could not have been Lhuna, since she was asleep. So make sure people in all timezones are covered before starting new phases.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

If we do go with a flexibility of Days/Nights ending early, you have to be careful with how you do it. I made a mistake in the last game of starting a Day too soon after a short night; anyone who thought about it realized then that the wolf could not have been Lhuna, since she was asleep. So make sure people in all timezones are covered before starting new phases.

I said this in WW7 but I'll say it in this thread I feel that a minimum of 8 hours should be given to avoid those problems. I say 8 because, realistically, that gives anybody in the world the chance to post. That will make it so we cannot figure things out based on timezones.

[Formendacil]

Okay, having spent a 48 hour marathon reading a thread that I have been assidiously avoiding since its inception (first for dislike of the game "Mafia", later for fear of its apparent addictiveness), I am up to date on all the current aspects of the WW culture...

And boy do I wish I had done this sooner!!!

As it is, though, I will be heading off to Europe on Thurday (special audience with the Pope... well, me and about 2 million other people), and I won't be back until the start of September.

So I might be around in time for WW9. So save me a seat!

As an addendum, I thought I'd add my comments:

And, in short, this is a lot of fun and I'm very envious- but!- it's getting too complicated...

Really, I'm with Eomer of the Rohirrim: I'd be plenty happy playing according to the original, BW, version.

[Durelin]

Really, I'm with Eomer of the Rohirrim: I'd be plenty happy playing according to the original, BW, version.

As would I. It's hard to balance out the advantages of the wolves with the advantages of the villagers when you start adding so many different people.

I'd also have no problem with sitting this game out, as 21 in a village might be a bit much....

[SamwiseGamgee]

And I'll add my support to Eomer's argument of simplicity ruling.

[Boromir88]

I too would like to see the cobbler return.

I actually like the idea of the werehamster (though I like the name black beorning better). Sort of like a loner, no companions. Seems interesting.

The timezone conecern is another good proposal, I would have never thought of that. But, I guess we got some smart downers that can figure that kind of stuff out (Obviously I can't).

[Oddwen]

Originally Posted by Mith

Bear in mind that the Werehamster is just as likely to kill wolves as innocents.. I am right in thinking that the WH's aim is just to be last person alive.....

Yep.

Originally Posted by Morm

One is that we don't use Real Life problems as an excuse

Yes, please don't. If you aren't able to make a few days, you'll PM me and I'll try to think of something.

Originally Posted by SpM

all such OOC comments should go either in this thread or a separate admin thread. They should not become part of the game discussions because that it what gives rise to the danger that morm mentioned.

Preach it.

And yes...it should have been "at least once per day".

Originally Posted by SpM

Any thoughts on perhaps banning players voting for themselves?

Meh, I'm not too keen on telling people how to vote...if there was a tie between a Gifted and an Ord, the Ord might want to sacrifice him/herself to save the Gifted and a vote for him/herself might be the only way.

Originally Posted by SpM

What happens if, on the final DAY, the Werehamster remains with only one other Villager. Presumably if the other Villager is a Werewolf, the Wolves win. But, if he or she is an innocent Villager, does the Werehamster win?

If only one Villager is left with the Hamster, the Hamster would trump.
But since the game ends when all the Wolves are dead, if there's more than one Villager left with the Hamster, the Hamster would lose (die).

Originally Posted by SpM

What is the rationale for the Werehamster dying if the Seer dreams of them? That seems rather random to me and surely the Werehamster has a difficult enough job as it is without that.

That's the way I read it from the original rules - I always supposed it was because

Originally Posted by SpM

But, if the Shirriffs are able to declare themselves, then there should probably be one more Werewolf. Oddwen, how do you plan dealing with Shirriffs? Can they declare whenever they want, only once one dies, or not at all?

I was planning on letting them reveal themselves if they wish.
Is this a big enough game for another Wolf, or would the Cobbler suffice, seeing as that role's pretty much a half-Wolf?

Is this a big enough game, pshaw.

Recruitment will end Thursday, at noon GMT.

Non-retractable votes.

Multiple lynchings are allowed.

And if DAY/NIGHT activity ends sooner than the 24 hours, I shall try to start the next round early.

More in the morning

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I'm making people suspicious even before the game starts.

I've been reticent to join this game because Kath cannot play. Yet then I decided, "Hey, Oddie's modding it, for crying out loud. I should be there."

But this came along.

Plus, with Saurreg and Lhuny not playing, I'm also the only major time zone trouble here.

Having said this, I'm pulling out of this game. Have a nice one!