The True Master.

[Gurthang]

I've been thinking on this for a time now. I will keep it short though.

Sauron makes the ring, as everyone knows, and pours much of his power into its creation. Once he is separated from his Ring, he loses much of his power and can't even take on physical form. He now requires his Ring to do much of anything.

Now, let me restate that. Sauron, without his Ring, is almost nothing. On the other hand, his Ring has an immense will to conquer whoever bears it. We can see this in Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo. It is also said, I'm not sure where, that if one of the Wise could have used the Ring (Gandalf, Elrond) it would in the end overpower even them and just make them an image of what Sauron was. Which makes sense, the Ring's will is Sauron's will, so under its direction a being becomes like to Sauron.

I suppose you can see where this is going. Sauron needs his Ring to do much of anything. He must have it; it is part of him; he searches for it; he sends his mightiest servants to get it back. In short, the Dark Lord is very much like Gollum. Both have been conquered by the Ring and reserve very little in their rush to retrieve it. It consumes them.

The Ring dominates, consumes, conquers, overpowers, masters. It cannot be resisted. It is uncontrollable, even by it's 'master'. So, the Ring is the True Master.

[Boromir88]

Once he is separated from his Ring, he loses much of his power and can't even take on physical form.

Just a minor thing to the topic of the thread, but he can take on a physical form, and he does even before we briefly read about him as the Necromancer in "The Hobbit."

But, to talk about the thread, I think you're on to something...

...it was beyond the will of any (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.

I think this is a clue that The Ring is the true master. One might think that if anyone had enough "will" or "power" to destroy it, it's creator would, but Sauron is mastered by it himself. There would be no reason for him to destroy it (in fact it would mean the end of him), but the quote points out that he did not even have the will to destroy it. And another important thing is Sauron will be destroyed forever if the Ring is, but the Ring can survive without Sauron.

Sorry if I'm going in circles with this, but I think it works rather circular. The Ring is "bound" to a Master, and answers to a Master, but if the ring is destroyed then the Master is destroyed. So you might think of it as a Master-Master relationship. "The Master" has the power over the Ring, but without the ring's survival, it's master doesn't survive. My brain hurts...good thread idea.

[davem]

But isn't Sauron doing pretty well without the Ring? The destruction of the Ring is the only thing that can stop him. I'd say its damn lucky the Ring was found when it was, or Sauron would have taken over the whole of Middle-earth. All Sauron needed was for the Ring to continue to exist. Bit like those fairy stories where the ogre's heart is hidden away & so he's unstoppable. He can't be defeated in battle because he's too powerful. The hero has to find out where his heart is & destroy that in order to defeat him.

So, Sauron doesn't actually need the Ring in order to win, al he needs to do is stop anyone from destroying it - that's why he wants it back.

[daeron]

Sauron doesn't actually need the Ring in order to win, al he needs to do is stop anyone from destroying it - that's why he wants it back.

I don't think so. Will Sauron be victorious if the allied might had been the same as in the second age? Sauron was able to push to the limit just because Gondor and Rohan were sitting idle and Arnor was competely destroyed (partly because of the war of the last alliance). If Gondor had been alert, collected armies from when the first shadow fell, had it been of the might in the days of its rising, had the line of kings not been broken due to human foolishness, would Sauron have such advantage. No. But even in such cases, with the ring, he might have achieved a victory because this time there was no Gilgalad with Aeglos to harm him.

And does he have physical form in the 3rd age? I don't remember exactly, but there seem to be two contradicting statements in LOTR to this question.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by daeron

And does he have physical form in the 3rd age?

Yes. Gollum saw his hands:

Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering

See also:

Sauron - Physical form in The War of the Ring or not?
Frodo or the Ring?

[davem]

Originally Posted by daeron

I don't think so. Will Sauron be victorious if the allied might had been the same as in the second age? Sauron was able to push to the limit just because Gondor and Rohan were sitting idle and Arnor was competely destroyed (partly because of the war of the last alliance). If Gondor had been alert, collected armies from when the first shadow fell, had it been of the might in the days of its rising, had the line of kings not been broken due to human foolishness, would Sauron have such advantage. No. But even in such cases, with the ring, he might have achieved a victory because this time there was no Gilgalad with Aeglos to harm him.

But they didn't do any of that. Taking the situation as it was at the end of the Third Age Sauron had overwhelming power in military terms & the only thing that could prevent his victory was the destruction of the Ring.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I agree. The Ring was the greatest peril and at the same time the only hope for the Free Peoples of Middle-earth. If it had remained lost forever, Sauron would have reconquered Middle-earth, though not as easily or as quickly as he would have had he obtained the Ring. Also, since the Ring would not have been there to aid Bilbo and the dwarves on the Quest of Erebor, Smaug the Dragon would still have been alive, making the fight even more hopeless.

[Gurthang]

First of all, thank you Boromir for pointing out my error. I think I was mixing book and movie again.

I do agree with davem on his point about Sauron increasing in power. He was currently on the verge of conquering the last major resistence when his Ring was destroyed.

And I also really like what Boromir said about Sauron and the Ring having a 'Master-Master' relationship. It occured to me that really one cannot master the other, insomuch that they are the same. They have one will, even though the Ring seems to be more important to the survival of both.

Maybe Sauron made a mistake putting so much power into the Ring. Perhaps he could have acheived the same abilities (more commanding influence, power over other Great Rings, etc.) without putting so much of himself into the little blighter. It would have ensured that he would still have most of his power without it and kept him from being linked to its survival.

But already I can see that not working. Without putting so much into the One, he probably wouldn't have gained influence over the other Rings. Also, if the Ring had a less commanding will, it could be taken from him easier. Another might be able to master it, and then really use it against him.

Yet here's an even better thought. Perhaps he put so much of himself into the Ring that if it were ever lost(as it was) it would conquer its bearer and eventually find its way back to him(as it almost did!). That would make sense, since I've heard that the greatest fear of those who have power is losing that power. He was afraid of losing his Precious, and so made it so powerful that it was it's own saftey mechanism.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And another important thing is Sauron will be destroyed forever if the Ring is, but the Ring can survive without Sauron.

Can it? Can there be a 'without Sauron' while the Ring exists? That we will never know. But this line of thought ends with the conclusion that Sauron is indeed very much dependent on the Ring - his True Master as Gurthang put it.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Without putting so much into the One, he probably wouldn't have gained influence over the other Rings.

I can't remember if this is in The Silm or some other book, but wasn't it said that the moment Sauron wore the One and uttered those Ash nazg words, Celebrimbor realized that they were deceived and thus he hid the Three? I'm sorry, I don't have the books with me.

But my point here is, Sauron may have gotten control over the Nine and some of the Seven, but I don't think he did over the Three. It was because Sauron put so much of his will into the One that Celebrimbor knew of his treachery before he was even able to see the Three.

But yes, it's interesting that Sauron put his power into the Ring as to 'spread' his influence. Had he not done so, once others realize his dark form and substance, he could no longer sway them to his side. But through the Ring, he could use others to his purposes without them knowing it - because the Ring 'looks fair but feels foul.' Oh, the ingenuity of all this.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Sauron, without his Ring, is almost nothing. (Gurthang)

You might also say that I, without my internal organs, am nothing.

The Ring is a part of his existence, so he needs it. But not with him, exactly. Just as long as its there. (Of course the safest place it would be is right in his finger, so he would try to find it.)

As long as the the Ring exists, Sauron's will exists. That's why if someone used its powers, he would in the end replace Sauron. Sauron would still exist, albeit in a different form--like how Morgoth's will is still in Arda, despite him being without it. Thus many mini-Morgoth spring out of Middle-earth.

So you might call the relationship between Sauron and the Ring egotism, in a weird way.

All Sauron needed was for the Ring to continue to exist. (davem)

Exactly. Well, better said.

If Gondor had been alert, collected armies from when the first shadow fell, had it been of the might in the days of its rising, had the line of kings not been broken due to human foolishness, would Sauron have such advantage. No. (daeron)

I should just point out that the decline of the Númenóreans as a race is not due to anything foolish Men had done:

[T]he waning [of the Dúnedain] . . . proceeded, little by little . . . For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Númenóreans after the downfall of the Land of the Star.

LR Appendix A I iv--emphasis mine

The slow, steady decline of the might of the Dúnedain is a natural thing. So, they could have remained alert and assembled armies and all, but I don't think that, force-on-force, they could have prevailed upon Sauron.

And remember, the Second Age-Númenóreans also had help from Beleriandic-Wars veteran Elves (or their descendants). Gondor had no such heavy-hitting allies, except Rohan (which is, still, relatively small.)

. . . Sauron may have gotten control over the Nine and some of the Seven, but I don't think he did over the Three. It was because Sauron put so much of his will into the One that Celebrimbor knew of his treachery before he was even able to see the Three. (Lhuna)

No, daga. They came from the same blueprint--Sauron's. So they were still under the One.

[Turgon Philip Noldor]

Yes I see what you are saying. Even though Sauron made the Ring, it seems that it has come to master him. Though if he has the Ring, he uses it. He still has power over it, does he not? When he puts the Ring on, he is using its power as a tool or weapon. I have not given much thought to this topic. It is very intriguing.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nilp

No, daga. They came from the same blueprint--Sauron's. So they were still under the One.

Daga ka rin.

I know this has already been discussed somewhere, but what I meant in saying that "Sauron did not have control over the Three" is that despite wielding the One, he had no effect whatsoever on things done through the use of the Three. Like if Galadriel used Nenya to establish Lothlorien, Sauron could do nothing about it using the One.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I know this has already been discussed somewhere, but what I meant in saying that "Sauron did not have control over the Three" is that despite wielding the One, he had no effect whatsoever on things done through the use of the Three. Like if Galadriel used Nenya to establish Lothlorien, Sauron could do nothing about it using the One. (yung daga kong kapatid)

Galadriel did not use Nenya to build Laurelindorénan, she used it to protect it.

And while the One was on Sauron's finger, the bearers of the Three did not wear them, because they well knew that their minds would be revealed to Sauron.

I have oodles of UT and LR quotes to prove it; unfortunately, they're not with me.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by Turgon Philip Noldor
Yes I see what you are saying. Even though Sauron made the Ring, it seems that it has come to master him. Though if he has the Ring, he uses it. He still has power over it, does he not? When he puts the Ring on, he is using its power as a tool or weapon. I have not given much thought to this topic. It is very intriguing.

You could almost just as easily say that the Ring used Sauron as a tool. The Ring's will and Sauron's were the same. If they were together, there is really no way to see which is ruling the other, because they would do the same things regardless.

This is why I pointed out that, without the Ring, Sauron acted much like Gollum did, insomuch that he bent much of his available resources into its retreival(sp). This seems to show to me that the Ring had a power over Sauron, so that Sauron wanted it more than he would ordinarily want a 'tool'.

I just thought of an analogy. It's not extremely accurate, but it's kind of funny. A dog and its tail! At first, the dog(Sauron) seems to be the master, and the tail(Ring) is just an extension. But when a dog chases its tail, it seems that the tail has the upper hand. Two things could happen: (a) the dog doesn't catch his tail or (b) the dog catches its tail, but by biting his tail, he is really bitiing himself. In either case it seems that the tail comes out on top. Either it doesn't get caught, or it hurts the dog as much as it is hurt!

(Obviously, this is full of holes. Sauron wouldn't want to hurt the Ring nor is it running from him. It was just too funny not to share! )

[gorthaur_cruel]

I know this has already been discussed somewhere, but what I meant in saying that "Sauron did not have control over the Three" is that despite wielding the One, he had no effect whatsoever on things done through the use of the Three. Like if Galadriel used Nenya to establish Lothlorien, Sauron could do nothing about it using the One.

As mentioned above, the Three were just as much under the control of the One as the Nine or the Seven. Only, Sauron never got a chance to control them. The main reason that drove Sauron to attack Eregion was that the Elves, contrary to his plan, took off all their Rings. Thus, Sauron had no power over them in the Second Age.

In the Third Age, Sauron obviously lacked his Ring. Thus, he could exercise no control over any of the Three. Yet, they emphasize many times that if Sauron regains the One, all their work will be laid bare to him. In fact, I think this is the greatest power of the Ring, actually...

[Boromir88]

Naw, this isn't a thread based on if Sauron was fooled in thinking someone could possibly get the Ring to Mount Doom and destroy it. But, whether he was fooled into thinking he was the Master of the Ring? Was Sauron the "Master of the Ring?" Or was it the Ring that was the Master of Sauron? And Sauron only believed he was the "Master of the Ring?"

On one side we have Sauron who is called the "Lord of the Rings," the "Master of the One." Also, the Ring tries to get back to him. It wants to get back to Sauron. When the Ring can get no more help out of a person it slips away. As it did with Gollum, and as Bilbo said it had a tendancy to slip off his finger.

Then on the other side we see in Letter 131...

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that was existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.

As we are all aware, that you could either destroy the ring, or claim it and master it, to defeat Sauron for good. But, what I find interesting is that all this time it's not Sauron that's the master of the Ring, but it's the Ring that's the Master.

So now we know that the Ring could still survive, yet Sauron could be destroyed. (Though it would only bring about another Dark Lord Sauron himself would be destroyed).

It's interesting that Tolkien uses the word "rapport" to describe the relationship between the Ring's powers and Sauron.
rapport as in, bond, unity, or togetherness. Not that Sauron controlled the Ring's powers, but the Ring's powers were bonded to Sauron. And without the Ring's powers "bonded" to Sauron, Sauron could no long exist (in a physical form).

So, who was the true Master? The Ring or Sauron? Or were they coequal? The Ring wanting to get back into Sauron's hands. Yet Sauron could not survive without the Ring, or by someone strong enough to claim the ring, and able to harness it's powers, and thus overthrowing Sauron.

[mormegil]

Sauron was master. Simply put it was HIS power he poured into it and by claiming it somebody is, in essence, able to usurp a good portion of his power.

On a side note, maybe why it kept slipping off Bilbo's hand and Gollums is because they are hobbits and have generally smaller fingers than Sauron, though then it must be assumed that Isildur had rather dainty fingers too

[Roa_Aoife]

I could see it go either way, really. Perhaps Sauron had marginal control, but the ring wasn't completely controlled by it. Otherwise, it would never work for another master, ever. Gandalf mentions that the ing has a will of it's own, so it's conceivable that it could act without a master. Maybe Sauron was only master so long as the Ring allowed him to be.

I must ponder this further....

[The 1,000 Reader]

I've always believed the ring to be Sauron's master, not the other way around. It had too much power for Sauron to truly master it. It had the power of Middle-Earth and Morgoth's Ring in it, and I doubt it was a small amount of either.

[Farael]

I must say that I agree with mormegil on this topic, it was Sauron who mastered the Ring and not the other way about. The Ring obviously had an influence in Sauron, as most of his power was contained within that Ring yet that power still belonged to Sauron (as long as no one else claimed mastery of the Ring). Why the ring has such an influence over Sauron is because without it, his powers would be diminished greatly and therefore he would probably be defeated and cease to exist. Also we see the Ring trying to get back to Sauron as perhaps a dog running back to his master's side. That's the impression I got, anyway.

I've always believed the ring to be Sauron's master, not the other way around. It had too much power for Sauron to truly master it. It had the power of Middle-Earth and Morgoth's Ring in it, and I doubt it was a small amount of either.

I beg to differ, as the Ring was made by Sauron and not Morgoth and all the power it contained had been once Sauron's as well. Which leads me to another question

Exactly why would Sauron put so much of his power into one ring rather than keep it to himself? could he not control the other rings without a ring? did the ring enhace his powers further, even if he spent some of his own powers in its creation?

[Boromir88]

Sauron was master. Simply put it was HIS power he poured into it and by claiming it somebody is, in essence, able to usurp a good portion of his power.~mormegil

That's true, and that may very well be the case, that it is Sauron's power that's with the Ring, therefor he's the master. However, he goofed by putting so much in that without the Ring (or even it's powers) he wouldn't be able to survive. And because of that I got to think that in some way the Ring dominates over Sauron, because of the fact that without the Ring he can no longer take a physical form, he will just remain a shadowy menace.

Which comes to the question of the will of the Ring. I agree with Roa in that the ring does have it's own will. It can escape from a bearer if it so desires. When Frodo finds out that it kept slipping off Bilbo's finger he put it on a chain, and since the Ring couldn't slip off anymore, it became substantially heavier each step closer to Mount Doom. Making the journey even more difficult for Frodo. This brings up the question though, is the will of the Ring controlled by Sauron? Being that it's Sauron's own power in the Ring, is it's purpose to get back to Sauron? Or is it just to not be destroyed?

Possibly something else I want to bring up is this quote, also in Letter 131...

It is beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought.

So, it's beyond even Sauron's power to throw the Ring away. Let's say for instance if the destruction of the Ring didn't bring about Sauron's destruction, and Sauron knew that, he still wouldn't be able to destroy the Ring. I think this quote shows that the Ring has power over Sauron, in that no one would have the will, or strength to destroy it, not even it's own creator that poured his power into it.

Exactly why would Sauron put so much of his power into one ring rather than keep it to himself? could he not control the other rings without a ring? did the ring enhace his powers further, even if he spent some of his own powers in its creation?~Farael

Yes, as the quote from my first post points out...

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that was existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.

As to why he would not just keep his own power and why would he put it in this ring? I think it's just an attempt of getting more power, and also of course being able to control all the Rings of power. What's interesting in that Morgoth (and someone may know but I can't find the quote), anyway, I believe Tolkien talked about Morgoth's power was actually diminished because he had spread it out so much that it actually diminished his power. I can't remember where this quote is, I'll try some looking, or perhaps someone can help me out.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

This brings up the question though, is the will of the Ring controlled by Sauron?

Or is the will of the Ring an aspect of Sauron's own will? Might it be argued that Sauron and the Ring are essentially one being, albeit a divided one, and that neither is therefore the master?

[Roa_Aoife]

Here's a thought that just recently struck me: What if it was really Morgoth's will? (Bear with me.) Sauron was the servant of Morgoth, "being only less evil in that he served another, and not himself." Later, we learn that Morgoth still has power in the world, even after being thrown into the void, and it spreads throughout Middle Earth. From this comes all the evil deeds done later in history. (Leading Men astray, etc.)

Is it concievable that Morgoth influenced the creation of the Ring to regain some control in ME, albeit indirectly? Was Morgoth the reall master all along?

NOTE: This is just a random train of thought, my own personal musing over the less obvious possibilities, if you will.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir

So, it's beyond even Sauron's power to throw the Ring away.

Of course it is. It is Sauron and He is It. He poured his own power into it and he is blind to see that others may wish to destroy it because his lust for power is so great that he can only see others doing the same. Of course it was never shown if anybody could destroy the ring because Frodo failed, though I like to think Sam would have done it .

The relationship between Sauron and the ring , if you will forgive me for using this word, creates synergy.

By definition

syn·er·gy
1. The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects.
2. Cooperative interaction among groups, especially among the acquired subsidiaries or merged parts of a corporation, that creates an enhanced combined effect.

Originally Posted by SpM

Or is the will of the Ring an aspect of Sauron's own will? Might it be argued that Sauron and the Ring are essentially one being, albeit a divided one, and that neither is therefore the master?

They are one although divided, that I agree with, but Sauron is the sentient whereas the ring is just an inanimate that has a will in that it reflects the will of its master, Sauron. Now this would make sense because if somebody else were to take the ring and were able to claim the power they would then be the master of the ring.

[The 1,000 Reader]

The ring was made by Sauron, yes, but that doesn't mean that Sauron didn't take advantage of Mount Doom's location and steal some power from the depths of Middle-Earth itself. Along with the power of Middle-Earth, a portion of Morgoth's ring would have "hitched a ride" and possibly strengthened the ring as well.

Someone else has commented that in one of his letters, Tolkien specifically stated that Sauron himself could not destroy the ring or even contemplate it's destruction. This seems to say that the ring held a great deal of power over Sauron and that the reason it would listen to him is because he was already tainted and had a connection to it. For all we know, the ring could have very well left Sauron one day in favor of a Vala, if he were ever to come before one, or Morgoth when he escaped the Doors of Night.

The ring may have been useable by Sauron, but I believe that it was ultimately the master. Debate over this if you will.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Or is the will of the Ring an aspect of Sauron's own will? Might it be argued that Sauron and the Ring are essentially one being, albeit a divided one, and that neither is therefore the master?

I agree with this. What I wonder is, why put your power in a Ring or anything else, risking the loss thereof? The answer, as far as I can tell, is that the focus of that power increases its effect, thus making Sauron more powerful (when wearing the Ring) than he would be without it. The Ring is Sauron's, has his will, and his power, and apparently contains enough of his being such that its destruction is his destruction.

[Farael]

I guess I agree with those who say that the ring and Sauron were just about the same thing, albeit divided into two different physical forms. But my reasoning is that, as the ring is after all an innanimate object created by Sauron, the creator is the master of his creation, although they are in a way the same.

We hear the ring is intrinsically evil and corrupts whoever comes in contact with it. We also know that Sauron is evil as well and corrupts whoever will listen to him (if not, ask the Numenoreans) They are very similar, although one is an (almost) innanimate object while the other is... well, he is not exactly a 'living creature' but is definetly not an innanimate object. Also, one is an 'outgrowth' of the other, the ring exists because Sauron created it, and I believe that the impossibility of Sauron to cast away and destroy the ring is due to the fact that the ring increases his power. Should the ring perjudice him instead of benefit him, that would probably break the spell the Ring has over him and he would destroy it. I believe that this 'spell' is due to the nature of Sauron himself (namely, he only wants power and therefore taking action that would decrease rather than increase his power is inconceivable)

Of course, this is all guesswork, as Sauron had put so much of himself in the ring that its destruction would mean his defeat as well, yet should that not happen for some reason, and should the Ring perjudice Sauron more than what it benefits him, I'm fairly confident Sauron would have destroyed it.

[obloquy]

However, he goofed by putting so much in that without the Ring (or even it's powers) he wouldn't be able to survive. And because of that I got to think that in some way the Ring dominates over Sauron, because of the fact that without the Ring he can no longer take a physical form, he will just remain a shadowy menace.

This is from the movie. Sauron had a physical body even without the Ring, and he was perfectly capable of surviving without it. In fact, he very nearly overthrew Middle-earth without it. Thank deus for his machina.

[Gurthang]

This sounds very, very familiar.

The True Master.

*flashes suspicious glance in Boromir's direction*

Anyway, my opinion: yes and no.

Sauron and the Ring are one, technically one cannot master the other. Yet they are seperate physically, so the possibility seems there.

Sauron more or less requires the Ring to function. If it is destroyed, he is as good as gone. As long as it survives, he does. Seems like the Ring is more pertinent, yes? Yet without Sauron's will inside the Ring, it would be a simple gold band. So Sauron is also essential to the pair. And, although Sauron wants the Ring badly, the Ring also desires to be in the hands of it's maker. Each requires and needs the opposite.

The pair are masters of each other.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sometimes topics are so interesting that they are brought up again without conscious copying. This one is definitely based on the same question as Gurthang's above-mentioned thread, so I will merge the two. Please continue to read and post (t)here!

[Boromir88]

This is from the movie. Sauron had a physical body even without the Ring, and he was perfectly capable of surviving without it. In fact, he very nearly overthrew Middle-earth without it. Thank deus for his machina.~obloquy

Yes, I know that, I mean he wouldn't be able to survive (in a physical form) if the ring was destroyed, or if someone else mastered it. He would then remain just a shadow, never able to take form again.

[Eonwe]

what about when gandalf says to whichever hobbit merry, or pippin, that sauron is the one true Lord of teh Ring (council of elrond, i believer, when said hobbit says something to the effect of "hail frodo, lord of the ring".)

i think looking at it in a practical manner is best. sauron makes the ring for one purpose: to dominate The Three. he has to put enough of himself in the Ring to effectively accomplish this. its his will. your will is what dominates you. of course he was being run by his ring, because it had a great portion of his will, or potency or whatever. but the idea of the ring mastering him i don't agree with. the ring is just a projection of whatever he is trying to do in the first place.

that is why the ring is always trying to get back to sauron.

however, i think that that will (in this case it swiches to potency) could be highjacked by someone else, if they were stong enough. in the end, whoever ends up weilding the ring will duke it out with sauron, and the winner would dominate the ring (ei, kill the other, so win the mastery of the ring by default). in this case, i think the ring would acknowledge its new master and become an outgrowth of whatever he was trying to do (which would enevitably become evil, by the evil nature of the will in the ring).

one more thing. that bit about sauron not wanting to destroy the ring is kind of self-evident. that would in effect be committing suicide. sauron isn't really going to repent (the only senario i can think of when he would have reason to destroy the ring). he already tried that and failed, even without the tempting of the ring. so i think he kind of like being evil and dominating the world.

hopefully that wasn't to confusing...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, I know that, I mean he wouldn't be able to survive (in a physical form) if the ring was destroyed, or if someone else mastered it. He would then remain just a shadow, never able to take form again.

My post was completely unnecessary here. Somehow when I looked at the thread yesterday, I only saw about half of what is here now. Apologies for the redundancy.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Some very quick thoughts here. The ring was parasitic in nature, destroying its host in order to replicate Sauron. It did not destroy Sauron to be in possession of it because it was 100 percent compatible with him (he was also parasitic in nature), and while it enhanced his power, it did not kill him to be without, it as if were a heart. And the ring sought the most compatable host.

I believe that Sauron was defeated initially because he became dependant and placed so much importance on the ring. But by the time of the War of the Ring he had grown so much in power and his will had increased so greatly with out his ring, that if he were to recover the it, he would have been much stronger than at the time of the Alliance, hence the extent of Gandalf and crew’s alarm.

So why was he defeated in the end? Because his will was broken. Middle-earth came into existence threw the will of Eru, and Sauron’s will kept Sauron alive. Once that will was broken he could no longer recreate himself. I do not think that he even would have realized that the destruction of the ring would be so devastating to him, and that the ring was still so intertwined with him, as evidenced by his efforts to find it. But the ring was never his master.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

So why was he defeated in the end? Because his will was broken. Middle-earth came into existence threw the will of Eru, and Sauron’s will kept Sauron alive. Once that will was broken he could no longer recreate himself. I do not think that he even would have realized that the destruction of the ring would be so devastating to him, and that the ring still still intertwined with him as evidenced by his efforts to find it. But the ring was never his master.

I think you have an excelent point there as, now that I think about it, the Ainur are creatures of "will" their physical shape is just an extension of that will (they want to have a shape) but if not, they are an abstract will.

I'm not sure if I could say that The Ring and Sauron were parasitic in nature, as a parasite NEEDS their host to live and replicate while Sauron was pretty much alive without the ring in his finger. The Ring was never alive on the first place, and even then it is not exactly draining its host to produce baby-rings but rather it is enforcing the will of its creator over whoever wears it. Of course, if the creator wears it, this "enforcement of the creators will" will become rather an increase of this strenght of will.

Which leads me to another thought. We see that Frodo could have used The Ring to read (for example) Galadriel's thoughts if he had tried hard enough. Re-phrasing that a little one could say that if he had had a stronger will he could have used The Ring for his own benefit.

All along we have been discussing will and power as different things yet what if they are the same? Creatures (Ainur or children of Eru) are powerful because of their strenght of will. Ainur are creatures of will only and therefore they are very powerful. We even see that when they take a physical shape they become less powerful, as they become more similar to the children of Eru who are creatures of both body and will.

So, if power is an expression of a creature's will, I would think that when this creature puts on The Ring, it is putting on Sauron's will which is what corrupts them. Perhaps the Valar, who have a stronger will than Sauron, would have been able to use The Ring without falling to it's power, but Sauron was a great of the Maiar and therefore none of the Maiar (i.e.: Gandalf or Saruman) would have been able to wield the Ring without succumbing to Sauron's will.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

You are right that perhaps parasitic is not the best choice of words, since the ring was not truly alive. But it is an unusual object in that it did have a will and needed a host in order for that will to be carried out. Not literally changing the wearer into Sauron, but effecting such a change that they exhibited his will and would ultimately try to accomplish that will just as if Sauron himself where in their skin. When a host was not there, the ring would be dormant.

As for Sauron, I believe I went a bit too far with that remark. My thought was that without the creation of Arda he would have little opportunity to indulge his pride. In other words the materials he used were not his own, he had to distort/corrupt those things and creatures already in existence to feed his ego. This has nothing to do with his ring, but every thing to do with his nature.

But was this willful ring a really a 'Ring of Power' because it increased Sauron's power, or held and extra measure of his drive, or simply because it had power over the other rings? Perhaps all three of these.

Ainur are creatures of will only and therefore they are very powerful. We even see that when they take a physical shape they become less powerful, as they become more similar to the children of Eru who are creatures of both body and will.

This it is an interesting thought, that the body might place limitations on the power of the will, even among the Ainur. I am wondering what might cause this, and if it is true, could this be one reason why Sauron might place a measure of his will in something external?

[Farael]

This it is an interesting thought, that the body might place limitations on the power of the will, even among the Ainur. I am wondering what might cause this

Well, first of all he would have to use a part of his will to mantain his physical shape, as it is not his "natural" state and therefore he has to spend at least some of his will not to go back to his abstract form. Also by having a body you are more susceptible to other kinds of temptations which could corrode your will... even innocent stuff like food and drink can afect it, yet while he was just a creature of will he had no need for such things

, and if it is true, could this be one reason why Sauron might place a measure of his will in something external?

I guess it was his greed for even more power, as somehow the Ring increased his will/power and it also allowed him to control the other rings, which was what he wanted.

[Legolas]

I think the inherent problem with the intial poster's conclusion is the ignorance of the Ring's identity. The Ring is literally part of Sauron's being. As long as the Ring lives, Sauron lives - not because of some weird or backward curse, but because they are one. It wasn't only a lost possession. To separate them as different spiritual entities is to ignore their nature - 'they' are 'he.' The Ring is designed to work its way back to its master.

With it fully completing him physically (or assembling together these two parts of his being), he will undoubtedly conquer the world (according to the characters in the story). He'd be a fool not to pursue it as he did...maybe he should have gone after it even more aggressively.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Legolas

I think the inherent problem with the intial poster's conclusion is the ignorance of the Ring's identity. The Ring is literally part of Sauron's being. As long as the Ring lives, Sauron lives - not because of some weird or backward curse, but because they are one. It wasn't only a lost possession. To separate them as different spiritual entities is to ignore their nature - 'they' are 'he.' The Ring is designed to work its way back to its master.

With it fully completing him physically (or assembling together these two parts of his being), he will undoubtedly conquer the world (according to the characters in the story). He'd be a fool not to pursue it as he did...maybe he should have gone after it even more aggressively.

The fact the the Ring and Sauron are seperate-but-one does not detract from the theory or the point I was making. I was saying that, since Sauron cannot remain when the Ring is destroyed, it seems that the One is more pertinent to the existance of both. I don't know if Sauron can be truly defeated without destroying the Ring (I think not, because his will would still live on) but I know his survival is wholly dependant on the Ring. Which points to it being more essential to the will existing and in that sense is superior, and even to the point of being more of a 'master' of the whole split will.

And who's to say it isn't? If Sauron and the Ring truly have the same will, how can one be called greater, more important, or superior to the other. That is determined by other characteristics, ones that are outside the will.

And this is essentially what I was/am saying. Knowing that Sauron and the Ring are the same (will), the Ring possesses more dominant characteristics than Sauron himself. Making it the Master.

[Farael]

I was saying that, since Sauron cannot remain when the Ring is destroyed, it seems that the One is more pertinent to the existance of both. I don't know if Sauron can be truly defeated without destroying the Ring

Perhaps it'd be possible to kill Sauron, but there is no one in Middle Earth who is powerful enough to do so... or at least, is allowed to try (as Gandalf was not). Therefore the only way out was to destroy the ring, which could be destroyed by just about anyone.... brave and strong enough to carry that burden all the way to Mt. Doom and toss it in there

And this is essentially what I was/am saying. Knowing that Sauron and the Ring are the same (will), the Ring possesses more dominant characteristics than Sauron himself. Making it the Master.

Does it? The only characteristics the Ring seems to have is the ability to corrupt anyone who wears it (but Sauron himself) and that it wants to go to Sauron as badly as Sauron wants to find it. In those aspects they are equal. Then I just argued that it might have been possible to destroy Sauron through other means, but there was no one powerful enough who was allowed to try, so we will never know what would have happened then. It is likely that Sauron would have always been able to return to "life" as long as The Ring was not destroyed, as it was a bit of a "savings account" for his will.

I'm not sure if The Ring had more dominant characteristics, if anything they were equal yet The Ring was Sauron's creation and it contained his will, not a true will of its own (I know I have said before it had a will of its own but on second thought, it's Sauron's will expressed on the Ring). Still, I believe they are so closely related and interconected that they are the same thing. Neither can achieve its full potential without the other and neither would exist if the other is destroyed.