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06-30-2005, 01:13 PM | #81 |
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A fair point as well, Lush. But I still say only one thing: I honestly do not believe that Orcs would ever choose to go through that particular line of "war". Men maybe, or some other creature like that, maybe even Uruk-Hai. But not Orcs. It is not in their nature to be that crafty, or do something that has such a small amount of outward results after the damage has been done. For although rape is terrible, yes, I cannot imagine that that would ever be the chosen way that the Orcs would do things.
But yes, many may still (and have every right to) hold to their argument that you believe that is what probably happened...and yet as I said before, I see no reason to pursue this topic, as it still boils down to one thing. To each his own opinion and outlook on the world! Tolkien never gave a direct answer to what happened, so arguing really is pretty worthless isn't it? P.S. Lol Nukapei! Thanks for being such a great sport! *high fives* Hehe, I know, post-picking-apart-manuevers... And I do know what you mean about that picture of Celebrian. I've always loved that one too... |
07-01-2005, 07:28 AM | #82 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,997
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Some wish to bring people round to their side. Some might simply enjoy goading others into stronger and stronger statements--either playing devil's advocate or messing with other's ideas-- while still others might simply be interested in exploring the possibilities. For instance, I think Fordim's and SaucepanMan's posts here are interesting as explorations of the writing. They acknowledge the indeterminacy of the text and consider how that is a characteristic of the narrative. Isn't this valid? Agreeing to disagree is a legitimate conclusion where people remain unconvinced. However, to suggest that a topic should not be pursued because there is no direct answer and because all we have are different opinions strikes me as a bit harsh. Surely discussion is all the more important where we don't have clear cut yes/no situations, where we can come to understand a variety of ways to consider a topic. Or did you mean there's no point in pursuing the topic further, rather than at all? Your point about the morgul poisoning is interesting, as it then suggests several purposes for Celebrian in the story. First, she provides her sons with reason and rationale to be always out fighting.(An important consideration when an author has some many characters at hand.) Second, she shows how close and personal has been the pain even in eminent, powerful elves. Third, she offers a way for astute readers to foretell Frodo's final fate. Although Elrond and Rivendell have 'healed' Frodo, we can surmise that there will be lasting effects. There is no magic bullet in LotR, but always a long defeat. Oh, wait, Celebrian's absence also explains why/allows Arwen to spend so much time with Grandma Galadriel, where she can see Aragorn amidst the beauties of Lothlorien. There are so many benefits to getting Celebrian out of the way. Hardly "a small amount of outward results", eh? It's the story that assaults her, not the orcs! |
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07-01-2005, 02:04 PM | #83 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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In an early draft of the story, we find this version of Celebrian's capture & torment: Quote:
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In short, I think there's a danger of getting too caught up in what might or might not have happened to Celebrian at the hands of the Orcs. As Neurion has pointed out, it is the consequences of her sufferings which are important - which is why, I think, Tolkien focussed on them, rather than on a graphic description of what happened to her. Sorry if I've repeated earlier points... |
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07-01-2005, 11:16 PM | #84 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Mordor
Posts: 150
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Then she really was raped if not seemingly.
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I am Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. |
07-02-2005, 07:34 AM | #85 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
Basically, the alternatives are: a)unknown/unknowable 'torment' in the dark at the hands of the Orcs, or b) specific, known torment (rape or otherwise). a) is more disturbing & from a literary point of view more effective, because all we need to know is that what Celebrian went through was enough to break her spirit & make it impossible for her to remain in Middle earth. As soon as the 'torment' is precisely defined - whatever it was - there will be some readers who respond 'Well, that wasn't all that bad - fancy being broken by something like that!'. To know the effect on Celebrian engenders sympathy/empathy, because the reader will think of the worst 'torment' they can imagine for themselves - which might not be rape at all, whereas to know the cause, may produce the opposite effect & cause her to be percieved as 'weak'. The unseen monster is always scariest (as PJ should have realised re the Balrog!) |
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07-08-2005, 12:32 PM | #86 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Standing amidst the slaughter I have wreaked upon the orcs
Posts: 258
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____________________________________ "And a cold voice rang forth from the blade. Yea, I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." |
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