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06-26-2005, 12:59 PM | #121 |
Itinerant Songster
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Another fantasy novel occurs to me in this connection: Neil Gaiman's American Gods; also his London subway novel, the name of which I forget. Those two novels also function the way Harry Potter does. Do they also abuse the way you suggest?
Anticipating the application of The Saucepan Man's question about "why Harry Potter, now", and not Neil Gaiman's, I'd say that it's an issue of popularity as well as timing. It strikes me that more fantasy novels are going to be this "non-traditional" kind of "transitional fantasy", and I think this is because there has been a paradigm shift in the consciousness of modern readers as opposed to just 30 years ago, when Thomas Covenant was written, namely: Tolkien's thesis and wish for escape, consolation, and recovery, seems to have occurred to our society as a whole, in that many readers have recovered a sense of, and desire for, the fantastic; for wonder. One result of this is that magic (for lack of a better word) is understood and accepted as possible in our world, rather than having to go outside, or into space, or underground, to find it. The frame of mind seems to accept that the fantastic can happen here, and now, instead of beyond our borders. Far from being a problem or 'sin', I think that this is a fascinating development which allows for all kinds of new stories to be written, and I congratulate Rowling on her ability to tap into the desire that had been woken by Tolkien and others. Expect more stories like it. As I said before, each of these stories needs to be judged on its own merit as story. As soon as you have started critiquing it in terms of spiritual/philosophical underpinnings, or whatever this world standards, you have broken the enchantment, which is something many of us have a far better understanding of than we did a few short months ago. |
06-26-2005, 01:25 PM | #122 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Tolkien's 'escape' includes (as it must if it is to be a true escape) the escape from death - ie the escape from the circles of the World, to a place where there is 'more than memory'. In HP all there is after death is memory - ghosts. What writers like Rowling do is not make this world more 'magical' they simply make it odder & more chaotic. The 'magic' has no logic, no explanation. In a fairy story set in a secondary world this would not be a problem - it would be simply a 'given'. When it happens in this world it requires an explanation in terms of the 'rules' of this world - or at least an explanation of why this world's rules are incorrect. |
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06-26-2005, 01:29 PM | #123 |
Itinerant Songster
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You are asking for more than the story is meant to give. If this is necessary for you in all your fantasy, I wish you luck in finding satisfying reading material.
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06-26-2005, 04:35 PM | #124 | |
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06-26-2005, 05:59 PM | #125 | |
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06-26-2005, 07:08 PM | #126 | |
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Davem - I find your distinction between tales set in "our world" and those set in an "other world" overly technical. Rowling's works are set in a world where wizards and witches live alongside muggles. That is a fantasy world, regardless of the familiarity of many of the surroundings. It is not real, any more than Oz, Narnia, Middle-earth or the world of the Brothers Grimm's tales are. The distinction between all of these worlds and the real world is a distinction which most young readers are perfectly capable of making. To the extent that they are not, then the failure lies in their upbringing, not in the authors of the books that they read. This is why I find it both illogical and unacceptable that Rowling's works are singled out as being such a bad influence on young readers, when the multitude of other tales which similarly have no "theological underpinning" are not. That said, I regard the lack of any "theological underpinning" as irrelevant, given that all of the tales that we are discussing here clearly have a strong moral underpinning. When one strips away the superficial devices of magic and wizardry, the messages that they are giving to their readers are good ones. I fail to see a problem.
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06-27-2005, 10:04 AM | #127 |
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Some of those adults who want HP banned probably don't realize that the kids themselves are capable of making their own desicions about what is fantasy and what isn't. They think that when young kids read it they will believe every word. I think these people are just too overprotective and don't give their children some space to make their own choices on such matters.
lmp you might be right about the transitional fantasy books. I have already seen so many HP clones. I myself don't always like "transitional fantasy". I think it can quickly become cheesy or the main character from our world is all questions throughout the book, thus there is no real chance for character development. When I do read "transitional fantasy" I really read several pages of the book and flip through it etc. for if it is well done it is very neat. Overall I think people are making too big of a deal about HP. It is just a childrens book and not meant to be taken seriously. I would be much more concerned if I found my child flipping through a book in the Erotica section. (The saction has lately been popping up in Chapters and I always quickly walk past it)
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06-28-2005, 04:02 AM | #128 | |
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Obviously unacceptable, but maybe more understandable. Of course, you probably understand already. |
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06-28-2005, 04:18 AM | #129 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
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Of course this occurs in LotR as well so there is the major flaw in my theory!
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06-28-2005, 01:38 PM | #130 | ||||||||||||
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Book banning? Fantastic. Idiocy all around.
Since it's taken me this long to discover this fascinating thread, I've got a long post addressing many comments. Here goes:
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The only magic I see is what lies before me on a regular basis. The love between parent and child. Budding flowers and newly opened leaves. A fresh layer of snow glimmering in the early morning light. What's more magical than the beauty of existence? Onward... Quote:
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Another thing about Harry Potter... any kid who sits down with a book that's got a brightly coloured dust jacket depicting a cartoon kid with a wooden stick and actually believes that this book is "real" has some seriously negligent parents. And boy do I have a crazy feeling some of you lot would hate Lamb: the Gospel According to Biff. That book is just plain hilarious but if you're easily offended, avoid it like the plague. It spends a few hundred pages making fun of Jesus in a well-written sort of way, and yet a story that involves flying broomsticks and house-elves with a penchant for socks and knit hats is more of a threat to Christianity and the eternal salvation of the soul.
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06-28-2005, 02:29 PM | #131 | |
Itinerant Songster
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06-28-2005, 04:31 PM | #132 | |
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Last edited by Orominuialwen; 06-28-2005 at 04:32 PM. Reason: typos |
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06-28-2005, 08:14 PM | #133 | |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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My point, tongue in cheek though it was, is that the Church has been wrong before, so who's to say the Fundementalists who are trying to say that fantasy stories are wrong... aren't wrong also? Not that I'm saying it's the Catholic Church that is behind book banning as we speak of it, but that churches in general have been wrong in the past and people should not forget it.
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06-29-2005, 04:01 AM | #134 | |
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The "papal infallibility" doctrine is very specific and circumscribed, such that only a specific kind of pronouncement from the papal see is considered to be infallible. I don't happen to accept the doctrine myself, but that's an aside. Nevertheless, the point you're trying to make about churches not always being right, is apt. |
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06-29-2005, 06:20 AM | #135 |
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I've been thinking about Harry Potter (as you do ) and I would suggest it's not a transitional fantasy at all, it is set in our world. So is it fantasy? It is entirely based in the real world where there is a shadowy existence of wizards, witches and fabulous creatures which we as Muggles cannot see. All this is being kept hidden from us by the Ministry of Magic who interestingly co-operate with real world Government including our Prime Minister - as seen when Sirius Black escaped.
The activities of the wizarding community are kept hidden, there is even a Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Department which covers up misdemeanours of experimenting wizards like Mr Weasley, who indeed faced discipline at work because of his own activities. There is even the Office of Misinformation which comes up with lies to tell Muggles when they have seen a magical creature; these are then passed on via the real world civil service. This is more akin to The X Files which portrays a hidden, shadowy aspect of society where strange creatures, aliens and 'men in black' operate. This is all going on under our very noses too, kept hidden by the powers that be. I for one liked to speculate on the possibility that things portrayed in The X Files might be 'real', as it invited us to do so, playing on our paranoia. The difference with Harry Potter lies in that we are all brought up with fairy tales and are eventually told or discover for ourselves that there is 'no such thing' as a wizard like Dumbledore, nor are there unicorns or three headed dogs. The same thing is not said of shadowy government agents and secret experiments. So I'd venture to say that Harry Potter isn't dangerous in any way, as we all eventually (and possibly sadly ) learn that the magical good/evil world of fairy tales doesn't exist in our own world. Whether it exists in another world or form is a different matter entirely. Possibly the most serious danger arising from Harry Potter is that children might want to follow in his footsteps in the form of his career ambitions. He wants to join the Ministry of Magic and become an Auror. Maybe hordes of young people brought up on Harry Potter will take a sudden interest in joining the Civil Service?
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06-29-2005, 06:45 AM | #136 | ||
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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06-29-2005, 07:01 AM | #137 |
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I'm sure all of you can imagine my very great disappointment when I discovered, after having left King's Cross station last August (in the midst of a fire alarm in the Tube station below) that there is indeed a platform nine and three quarters at King's Cross, with directions for us tourists to find it. Clearly, that fire alarm was a conspiracy. I really don't feel, having been pushed out into London, that I was saved from a greater evil.
Of course, there were many signs concerning Middle earth about Oxford. |
06-30-2005, 08:50 PM | #138 | |
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Please leave out your personal opinions and social commentary on religions, countries, etc. out of this forum and focus on the original topic, else this thread will not be open much longer.
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07-14-2005, 11:41 AM | #139 |
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Along with the release of the new Potter book there is this, which of course would be as expected.
"We just have to generate some news somehow...hmmm, maybe still up and old controversy or two?"
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07-14-2005, 02:44 PM | #140 |
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Based on the article, which doesn't exactly say enough, it would seem that Ratzinger's concerns about Harry Potter would obtain equally to LotR. Given that, I disagree with him about both.
Blur good and evil? How? I haven't seen that in any of the novels. Fantasy tends to accentuate the differences between good and evil .... that is, unless you have a skewed sense of evil because your beliefs are tinged somehow with fundamentalism, which means you're sure that you're right. At least the pope prefers to fight with a pen instead of bombs. |
07-14-2005, 03:29 PM | #141 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
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07-16-2005, 05:21 PM | #142 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I actually picked up the Harry Potter book yesterday at Chapters at 12:00. My friend had pre-ordered the book so I decided to pick it up at 12:00 and take a look at all the Harry Potter freaks etc. (Don't mean freaks in a bad way)
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07-17-2005, 05:47 AM | #143 |
Everlasting Whiteness
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Maybe that's part of why the books generated such a response. For them to be so popular that thousands of people will willingly sit outside a bookstore til midnight just to be the first ones to get and read the books does speak of an obsession that we will never have a chance to see with LotR. I don't believe that LotR was popular enough when released to warrant this kind of attention so there would be less of a reason for people to feel threatened by it.
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07-20-2005, 11:09 PM | #144 |
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Just had to say this.
People (even those who believe in a loving God) find it easier to hate than to love.
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07-21-2005, 08:09 AM | #145 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Or is it that the Christian scriptures state that one should not dabble in witchcraft/sorcery (Deuteronomy 18:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21, Leviticus 19:31, Leviticus 20:6 ) and the oft quoted verse regarding permitting witches/sorcerers to live (Exodus 22:18 and similarly Leviticus 20:27).
Is it that Christians fear that their children will somehow turn to witchcraft, being influenced by the Potter books, and though no one would stone witches today, these children would have gone over to the dark side, and be an affront to the Christian God?
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07-21-2005, 09:08 AM | #146 | |
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07-21-2005, 09:27 AM | #147 | ||
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Besides, there is blasphemy all over the place these days, and no one seems to care. If you insult any other deity, you are thrown in prison or something (perhaps not so extreme, but you see what I’m getting at), but it’s some how okay to insult (for lack of a better term) the Christian God. I hear people saying "Oh my G**" and shouting Jesus' name as a curse. This is all blasphemy and that is an insult to God. Sin, angers him. Witchcraft is a Sin. It angers God.
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07-21-2005, 12:56 PM | #148 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Aren't Christians (I use them as an example as I am more familiar with this religion and group) supposed to "be in the world yet not of the world?" To me this means that Harry Potter and ilk could be used as a way to evangelize, as seemingly there are many people who have read the books. I know that LOTR has been and is used in this manner too. Thoughts?
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07-21-2005, 01:00 PM | #149 | |
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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07-21-2005, 01:27 PM | #150 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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But I'm not sure that by 'banning' these books in my household (my kids aren't at the reading age yet, and so this is hypothetical) is doing my children a service. Would it not be better to read them together and show my children that, although Harry is a witch (or whatever he is), he (in my worldview) is just a fantasy person and that the world does not work thus. I mean no disrespect, but there are parts of the Christian Old Testament that I would not want my children reading until they were older. My children own the first movie and have watched it a few times. I don't know the difference between the books and the movie, but the movie has made no impact in regards to my children and increased interest in witchcraft. LOTR has, however, produced an interest in swordplay (but that is most likely my doing). Anyway, my point (if there in one in this post) is that there is a lot worse out there, and if we teach our children to be discerning, along with guiding them and helping them to mature, then we would be doing a greater service to them than by just seeking to get HP banned, as there will always be something else on the horizon that will require banning. Note that if this 'discussion' should be moved to PM, that would be fine. Cheers.
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07-21-2005, 01:59 PM | #151 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
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07-21-2005, 02:06 PM | #152 |
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I had a response all typed up but really all I want to ask is why are we all getting so worked up about the vague possibility that a story might, just possibly, maybe, at an outside chance, lead someone into 'witchcraft'? Do people even know what 'witchcraft' is?
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07-21-2005, 02:07 PM | #153 |
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I was giving an extreme example. I did not say that it was actually in Harry Potter, but its the same thing in God's eyes.
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07-21-2005, 02:15 PM | #154 | |
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And there are many groups, Christians included, that have misconception about others' beliefs, whether they are of other demoninations with a religion or other world religions/belief systems, such as 'witchcraft' or Wicca.
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07-21-2005, 02:56 PM | #155 | |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Now I'm going to paraphrase an author that I really liked but whose name has escaped me. He wrote "Lamb: the Gospel According to Biff" which is a terribly funny and extremely irreverant portrayal of the Christ's teenage years. What he says in the end is that if reading a book makes you question your faith, than your faith wasn't strong enough to begin with. That's my words for adults, now here's children. I know kids are impressionable, but if, as a parent, you take part in what your kids are reading/experiencing, and guide them a bit with discussions on why witchcraft should not be tried in our world, but that in a book, it's part of the story, and that sort of thing, it should not be a problem. To use an example, I'm nearly 18. I still discuss a lot of what I'm reading with my parents, especially if it's odd or in some way disconcerting. Reading Huxley's Brave New World, I talked to my parents and brothers about how eugenics and the way people are created for a purpose can tie in to God creating individuals for a purpose (my brothers are not remotely religous, but my dad's Catholic and my mom Methodist). Good and evil are discussed using Harry Potter (I was upset at the end of Six, but I'll save it for when more people have actually read Half-Blood Prince and I'm not spoiling it) and the LotR. Even though I'm not a kid any more, my parents still play an active role in my life. Duh, I wouldn't want it any other way. But my point is, parental involvement really keeps kids, not to sound all cold and cynical but, molded to the way you want them. And here's another paraphrasing (this one from Tamora Pierce): Only those who want to be corrupted will become so. If your kids are going to be swayed into doing some weird "stuff", than there must have been something up to begin with. It's just like the prejudice against certain video games. Inanimate objects do not force kids to do things. They are simply there.
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07-21-2005, 07:33 PM | #156 |
Scion of The Faithful
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My point has been missed.
It's easier to see that people walking between Mordor and Gondor are either soldiers of the Black Tower or of the White.
It's easier to attire yourself in the livery of the White Tower and say, "Destroy the soldiers of the Black Tower!" However, we Christians--yes, I'm referring to all of you there, even the one who wrote that article--are called to love first and foremost. However unpalatable the concept, we're supposed to love Saddam Hussein. We're supposed to love that kid hooked on drugs, even his dealer. We're supposed to love the one who just got an abortion, even the doctor who did it. We're supposed to love those who dabble in (detestable, yes) witchcraft, and even those who are remotely interested in it. Why? Read your Romans 5:8. That's why. Instead of doing that, we are content to stay in our Minas Tirith, and say to other people, "If you do not fall under the rule of Denethor, you are not with us." Post-traumatic possum. I think I just confused people with my switches between LR quasi-quotes and real-world stuff. Sorry.
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07-21-2005, 10:31 PM | #157 |
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Come on people now, smile on your brother...
This whole thing has gotten really off topic, and the idea of the condemnation of entire groups of so-called "unrighteous" people makes me feel very uncomfortable.
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07-22-2005, 09:54 AM | #158 |
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Perhaps the whole issue is not one of Christians versus witchcraft. Alatar makes a good point about "in but not of the world". You see, it seems to me that there is a psychological piece to this issue as well as the religious/faith issue: there are people who are given to fear, and there are people who have wrestled with their fear and have become courageous. I'm trying to make the transition myself. Anyway, there are a lot of Christians who are given to fear, and they need - yes, need - objects for their ready fear. Harry Potter is simply one of the chosen objects. There are also a lot of Muslims who are given to fear, and they cry out against the Great Satan in the West, by which they usually mean the USA. But there are also courageous Christians and Muslims - and wiccans, no doubt - who have moved past fear to understanding; these people do see themselves as part of a community and try to build others up. When there is real Evil afoot, aka actual bombings and murders, etc., the fearful and the courageous tend to forget their differences and band together to deal with the real threat in their midst.
All of which is to say, I really think this is not a Christians versus witchcraft issue. |
07-23-2005, 10:42 AM | #159 |
Scion of The Faithful
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How do I relate what I said to the topic?
If people who denounce LR (and Harry Potter) stand back for a while and see if what they're doing is helping them or not, I think the outrage would stop.
C'mon, people! We're supposed to be letting morality flow from within, instead of attempting to enforce morality at large! It never works, anyway--see the Inquisition and Calvin's Geneva. And Communist Russia, for that matter. And as for the Professor being a "hellbound Roman Catholic"--ha! Double ha! This guy understands my faith better than I do (but I'm trying to change this now, of course). If people took the time to know their "enemy"--instead of attacking it outright (and foolishly, I might add)--they might realise they're not really up against an enemy. Then, the outrage might stop. But this wouldn't happen. As I have said, people will find it easier to hate than to love.
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08-01-2005, 10:47 AM | #160 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Just found a discussion on the Pope's comments re HP on the Second Spring website. This is from Professor Ted Sherman's post:
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