Beren in Angband - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ar-Luman · 12-10-2002, 03:19 AM

When Luthien had lulled all the forces in Morgoroth's court to sleep, instead of taking just the one similral why did Beren not just take the crown that held all the similrals. Or better yet why did Beren and Luthien not just slay him where he was. Granted he was an ainu, but Grima Wormtounge slew Saruman. Even if Saruman had fallen from grace, so to speak, I am sure he still retained some power. Also Morgoroth was less powerful then he was before he turned to his own will.

This leads me to a thought. Even when the most powerful rebeled against the will of Illuvatar they lost power in some capacity. If this loss in power was not instilled, would it have not be harder to overcome the evil of Morgoroth. Do you think this was some type of constingency plan set up by the creator to help those that are weaker. That if one should turn to evil that were more powerful than the rest, then there is hope in the fact that power that is corrupted is itself weakend. One could say if Morgorth had all his power then he might not have been conquered, but I say if he had all his power then that would mean he never fell and was still good. Then, there would be no reason to overthrow him.

Sorry for going off my original topic it was just something on my mind.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-10-2002, 08:09 AM

When Beren's knife broke it showed that the taking of all 3 silmarils was 'not meant to be'. Maybe that's why they just left the crown.

As for the power thing, I agree. I think it's the only way Fingolfin was able to put up such a great fight against Morgoth, because he was weakened so.

the phantom · 12-10-2002, 04:11 PM

Beren couldn't take the crown because it was too big and heavy. Morgoth, as big as he was, was said to have born the crown with much weariness.

About the power thing, I think a built in safety device like evil having a weakening effect would make sense, but I'm not sure how much it was manifest in Morgoth. When he was contesting the Valar alone, throwing down their mountains and such, he was really powerful and hadn't really lost much yet, and was at this point already turned to evil. I think the majority of his power drain was because of him investing the power and will of his spirit in other things, such as servants and fortresses. I think Saruman did this a lot also. Evil tends to try to spread itself around, which causes the person who's using their power and spreading it to become weaker (you may have a big heap of butter, but if you try to spread it over a piece of bread three miles wide, you won't even be able to tell that there's any butter there). Best analogy I could come up with.

So, I guess that the nature of an evil person works against them, causing their own downfall. Yeah, I suppose that is kinda a safety device.

Galorme · 12-10-2002, 04:41 PM

Re:The loss of power thing

Don't get confused, Saruman was made, in all intents and purposes, into a man. He was given a human body with Ainur powers, and after Gandalf removed his powers he became nothing more than a man with a "ghost in the machine".

Now then consider this: an evil deed is evil regardless of who it is performed against. Killing someone, without honour, in his or her sleep, would be evil. Morgoth was evil, but that does not make the deep any less evil. Anyway it wouldn't have done much, if he could have destroyed his body he probably would have just done something similar to Sauron (with the eye and the fire etc).

The other thing to remember was that Tolkein was raised as a Christian, and a lot of the Christian religion talks about Rebelling against authority to be wrong. ("he who protects authority against rebellion must not himself rebel").

Beren87 · 12-10-2002, 04:41 PM

Similrals are shiny...it is difficult for one to resist them. Just as with the One Ring.

-Imrahil- · 12-10-2002, 04:58 PM

I agree with the phantom. The crown was too heavy for him to carry.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-11-2002, 09:39 AM

The crown was only heavy because of the stolen Silmarils. It would be far lighter for Beren.

12-10-2002, 03:19 AM	#1
Ar-Luman Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Irving, Tx Posts: 27	Beren in Angband When Luthien had lulled all the forces in Morgoroth's court to sleep, instead of taking just the one similral why did Beren not just take the crown that held all the similrals. Or better yet why did Beren and Luthien not just slay him where he was. Granted he was an ainu, but Grima Wormtounge slew Saruman. Even if Saruman had fallen from grace, so to speak, I am sure he still retained some power. Also Morgoroth was less powerful then he was before he turned to his own will. This leads me to a thought. Even when the most powerful rebeled against the will of Illuvatar they lost power in some capacity. If this loss in power was not instilled, would it have not be harder to overcome the evil of Morgoroth. Do you think this was some type of constingency plan set up by the creator to help those that are weaker. That if one should turn to evil that were more powerful than the rest, then there is hope in the fact that power that is corrupted is itself weakend. One could say if Morgorth had all his power then he might not have been conquered, but I say if he had all his power then that would mean he never fell and was still good. Then, there would be no reason to overthrow him. Sorry for going off my original topic it was just something on my mind. __________________ "and I, I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference."

12-10-2002, 08:09 AM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	When Beren's knife broke it showed that the taking of all 3 silmarils was 'not meant to be'. Maybe that's why they just left the crown. As for the power thing, I agree. I think it's the only way Fingolfin was able to put up such a great fight against Morgoth, because he was weakened so. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-10-2002, 04:11 PM	#3
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Beren couldn't take the crown because it was too big and heavy. Morgoth, as big as he was, was said to have born the crown with much weariness. About the power thing, I think a built in safety device like evil having a weakening effect would make sense, but I'm not sure how much it was manifest in Morgoth. When he was contesting the Valar alone, throwing down their mountains and such, he was really powerful and hadn't really lost much yet, and was at this point already turned to evil. I think the majority of his power drain was because of him investing the power and will of his spirit in other things, such as servants and fortresses. I think Saruman did this a lot also. Evil tends to try to spread itself around, which causes the person who's using their power and spreading it to become weaker (you may have a big heap of butter, but if you try to spread it over a piece of bread three miles wide, you won't even be able to tell that there's any butter there). Best analogy I could come up with. So, I guess that the nature of an evil person works against them, causing their own downfall. Yeah, I suppose that is kinda a safety device. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

12-10-2002, 04:41 PM	#4
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Re:The loss of power thing Don't get confused, Saruman was made, in all intents and purposes, into a man. He was given a human body with Ainur powers, and after Gandalf removed his powers he became nothing more than a man with a "ghost in the machine". Now then consider this: an evil deed is evil regardless of who it is performed against. Killing someone, without honour, in his or her sleep, would be evil. Morgoth was evil, but that does not make the deep any less evil. Anyway it wouldn't have done much, if he could have destroyed his body he probably would have just done something similar to Sauron (with the eye and the fire etc). The other thing to remember was that Tolkein was raised as a Christian, and a lot of the Christian religion talks about Rebelling against authority to be wrong. ("he who protects authority against rebellion must not himself rebel"). __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

12-10-2002, 04:58 PM	#6
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	I agree with the phantom. The crown was too heavy for him to carry. __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-10-2002, 04:41 PM	#5
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	Similrals are shiny...it is difficult for one to resist them. Just as with the One Ring.

12-11-2002, 09:39 AM	#7
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	The crown was only heavy because of the stolen Silmarils. It would be far lighter for Beren. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond