Gollum and Valinor...

[Falmar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 148</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Bilbo, Frodo and Sam were allowed to travel to the West because they were Ringbearers. If Gollum had survived the destruction of the Ring, would he have been permitted? He bore the Ring longest of all and Gandalf did have hope for his healing.

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[Sharkû]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
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Re: Gollum and Valinor...

Interesting question, one that probably cannot be answered for certain without any specualtion.

However, first we have to observe what would have happened to Gollum had he survived the destruction of the Ring. I see two possibilities here.

First, Gollum's ties to the Ring were so strong and its influence on him so heavy that he would not have survived it well, if at all. The destruction may have thrown him in utter depression and agony, being a Ring-bearer for so long. The forger died with the annihilation of his creation, and even on Frodo, who had the Ring for a considerably shorter time than Gollum, the destruction had its effect. A part of his former self seems to be missing, he has changed also in a melancholic, desperate way; that sadness could only be cured, if not only eased, in the Realm of Bliss.
So, Gollum may in this case probably have thrown his own life away voluntarily, seeing no more point in it without the precious. This way, he would have also redeemed his prior evil deeds in one way at least.

The other, and in my eyes, likelier possibility, would have been that with the Ring's destruction, the part in Gollum which was dominated by the Ring's influence would have been erased as well. Gollum might have become Sméagol again, although old and desperate (maybe he would have even died of old age very soon, if nature would then take back what the Ring has robbed it of for so long centuries).
Now what would Sméagol have done? Maybe he would have been able to perceive the error of his ways before, and tried to redeem for them in any way. In this scenario, I could imagine that he would indeed have been shown the mercy to respite in the West for the short while of his remaining life. Or Frodo could have taken him under his care.

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[Impmog2001]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: Gollum and Valinor...

I think that Gollum would despair if the ring was destroyed. I don't know if he'd so much be depressed as he'd lose the last strings of sanity that held him together for so long. My bet is that he would turn on Frodo who he'd see as responsible for the destruction of the ring and Sam who had treated him so miserably the entire time (also because they're the only ones available). I think it is also possible that has the ring was tossed into the fire he may have tried to leap after it in a futile attempt to grab it and be killed anyway.

Either that or he'd be subdued, withdraw into himself and basically shut down, in which case I believe that Gandalf would bring him over to Valinor, through pity. Of course, they may consider bringing Smeagol to Valinor bringing Evil to it, for Smeagol was fairly evil in his own right, and then kill him or desert him, leaving him in Arda.

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[Inziladun]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 238</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Gollum and Valinor...

I disagree that Gollum would have been allowed to go to Eressëa (not Valinor, neither the hobbits nor the returning Exiles could go there).
There were vast differences between Frodo and Gollum. Frodo was allowed to go because of his great sacrifice, and the fact that he had taken the burden freely, to save the world he knew. Conversely, all Gollum's dealings with the Ring were evil. He had killed to gain it in the first place, and betrayed for it at the end. Tolkien said of him
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gollum was pitiable, but he ended in persistent wickedness, and the fact that this worked good was no credit to him.<hr></blockquote>
The Ring conquered him so readily to begin with because he had a &quot;mean little soul&quot;, given over to spying and worse actions. Though indeed pitiable, this hardly earns the honour of sailing to &quot;Arda Unmarred&quot;.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 7/21/01 1:36:41 am

[Elenhin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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Re: Gollum and Valinor...

This may be off the point a bit, but I'll say it anyway. I don't think that Gollum would have survived the destruction of the Ring, no matter where he was when it happened. Look at the other beings enslaved by Rings of Power, Nazgul: when their rings are destroyed in the fall of Barad-dur, they instantly lose control, crash and die. The same would probably happen to Gollum.

And if he somehow had survived, Inziladun is right in saying that Gollum wouldn't have been admitted to the West. Gollum got the Ring by failing to resist the temptation and murdered his cousin to get it. It wasn't an independent decision on the part of Gollum, as the Ring's power was affecting him, but he was still too weak to reject it and became evil that way. Just look at poor Boromir...

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Imbear Nolwehin]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Purgatory

Greetings,
Gollum was not in possession of a ring when the one Ring failed. So I think that he would not have vanished as Sauron's others servants did. Mostly, because Gollum was not a shade or wraith as of yet.

Neither do I think that all of his &quot;years&quot; would come flooding back to kill him in a phantasmagoric hobbit to withered ash and bone scene.

He would, however, feel very very old and wretched. Without food and water immediately, his spirit would have failed and his body die. I think he would not have accepted help, and so would have ended.

As much as I argue that Gollum was literally become a ghoul or demon during his courses, I also feel that the final fires and the destruction of the Ring began a purging of his part (without credit to himself of course). With this in mind, who can say where Gollum is now. In the halls of Mandos, waiting? Maybe waiting until Dagor Dagorath, when all the mars of Arda(he being one) will be brought forth and cleansed and made good.

Imbëar

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[Inziladun]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 240</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Purgatory

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ......who can say where Gollum is now. In the Halls of Mandos, waiting?<hr></blockquote>

Mandos could not hold the spirits of Men beyond their period of waiting. Surely, being fellow mortals, it would be the same for Hobbits, and Gollum would have passed beyond the Circles of the World. Though I don't know if the fate of Hobbits after death is ever addressed anywhere by Tolkien.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Gilthalion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hobbitus Emeritus
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Re: Purgatory

We see that when the Ring is gone, so too are the Nazgul, the power of the Three Elven Rings, and the relative youthfulness of Bilbo Baggins.

Gollum was not a wraith, to disperse when the magic was gone, but without the power of the Ring, and with centuries of age, he might have gone the way of Saruman when he was slain.

This I would speculate as being almost immediate weakness, a dying word or two (&quot;My Preciousssssss....&quot, sleep, and a thin, shriveled, mummified corpse.

A pitiable end.

His soul would meet the abyssimal doom of wicked mortals, unless he had himself deliberately saved Frodo, expiating his guilt.

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[Mhoram]

I had never considered this topic before. I have nothing to add, as all has been addressed, but want to bump this up to the front page for others to read.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Though I don't know if the fate of Hobbits after death is ever addressed anywhere by Tolkien.

It is, in a roundabout sort of way. Professor Tolkien makes it fairly clear in several places that Hobbits are Men. Therefore, they would most definitely be under the same Doom as Men.
In a footnote to Letters no. 151, he says

The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk.

Also in no. 319:

...and that my 'hobbits' were in any case of wholly dissimilar sort, a diminutive branch of the human race.

In Morgoth's Ring, chapter X, "Of Dwarves and Men":

Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature. They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet. Their height at the periods concerned was usually more than three feet for men, though very few ever exceeded three foot six; women seldom exceeded three feet.They were not as numerous or variable as ordinary Men, but evidently more numerous and adaptable to different modes of life and habitat than the Drûgs, and when they are first encountered in the histories already showed divergences in colouring, stature, and build, and in their ways of life and preferences for different types of country to dwell in (see the Prologue to The Lord of the Rings, p. 12).

[Thingol]

I disagree that Gollum would have been allowed to go to Eressëa (not Valinor, neither the hobbits nor the returning Exiles could go there).

Just a side note, the exiles are allowed to enter into Valinor. Tolkien said of the exiles that they sail to Eressëa where they may even come to Aman, or something to that effect. There are certainly enough boats (the straight road is a one way ticket, no going back to ME) and there are also the harbors at Alqualondë. I see no reason why the ring bearers would not be allowed to enter, or at least visit Aman.

[Jessica Jade]

The forger died with the annihilation of his creation, and even on Frodo, who had the Ring for a considerably shorter time than Gollum, the destruction had its effect. A part of his former self seems to be missing, he has changed also in a melancholic, desperate way; that sadness could only be cured, if not only eased, in the Realm of Bliss.

Frodo got sick every year on his anniversary of his poisoining by Shelob and his stabbing by the Nazgul lord. At the end, he keeps saying "I am wounded...wounded, it will never really heal." (page 1002). Why did the Nazgul affect him forever? When the Nazgul were destroyed...why did their evil effects remain? Why couln't he ever completely recover unless he went to the Blessed Realm? He also says, when he was sick, "It is gone for ever. And now all is dark and empty." (page 1001). He is undoubtedly referring to the Ring here. But Why did a part of his former self die with the Ring?He, unlike Gollum, never exactly used the Ring to do evil. He also only had it for such a short time. I mean, Bilbo did not become desperate and melancholy at the destruction of the ring. (although he became really umm sleepy...did the Ring have anything to do with this??) Anyway...why is it that Frodo can only be cured in the Realm of Bliss? How come he cannot eventuallybe Whole again?

I don't think that Gollum would have survived the Ring's destruction. It had devoured his mind for far too long. His soul was pretty much binded to it and it was the only think that had kept him alive for so long. He would have died with the ring, because he'd have nothing to live for any longer.

Also, WHY exactly did Frodo get sick on every anniversary of his Nazgul wound and Shelob poisoning?

I just finihsed LOTR two days ago, finally. It was incredibly sad at the end...i almost cried!!! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] It was espeicaly sad when Frodo tells sam that he had to give up his former life in order to save middle earth. *sniff* Oh yea, which brings me to another question- he says, "But i have been too deeply hurt, sam." (page 1006). Too deeply hurt by his adventure? The Nazgul blade? The ring's destruction? WHAT, exactly does he mean? Anyway, that was probably the saddest part of the whole book...

sorry for getting a little off topic, but if you can help me answer those questions, i'd greatly appreciate it!

[Mhoram]

Jessica, I want to welcome you to the Barrow-Downs, I hope you'll hang around as much as you can.

As far as your questions...I really can't answer. I don't think Tolkien specifically states why, these things just are. I'll leave someone else to speculate as to reasons why.

[Jessica Jade]

thanks for welcoming me, Mhoram [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I spend hours on this forum everytime i come, because there are so many great discussions here, not only about Tolkien and great literature, but other issues as well. Barrow Downs really stimulates your intellectual side!

as for my questions...never mind [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]...in another thread, someone posted a link to this EXCELLENT article. I highly recommend that all of you read it, because it makes TOlkien's writing exrtremely relevent to life, and it helps you understand the ending better. Here the link:

Too Deeply Hurt- Frodo's Departure

Of course, if anyone else has their own interpretation of it, i want to know everyone's thoughts too. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] This can also be discussed in the tread titled "The Departure of Frodo."

[HerenIstarion]

quite an oldie, this one

[Nirvana II]

i think so, because maybe if he hadnt been destroyed with the Ring Gollum would have dissapeared, leaving Smeagol, the good personality, alive. Or maybe Smeagol would have died anyway.

[Osse]

With the ring destroyed, I believe Smeagol would have perished - the force binding him to Arda would be gone - he could die in peace. That to me adds to his demise, he was going to die if the ring were to be destroyed, and he died trying to prevent that... perhaps if this weren't the case, Gandalf would have hoped to have begun to heal him... perhaps this may have involved him sailing West. However, I don't see him shacking up with Frodo and Sam up there in Bag End!

[Dûrbelethwen]

Originally Posted by Nirvana II

i think so, because maybe if he hadnt been destroyed with the Ring Gollum would have dissapeared, leaving Smeagol, the good personality, alive. Or maybe Smeagol would have died anyway.

I am not sure if Smeagol is necessarily a good personality. In a book by Andy Serkis about his experinces during the making of Lord of the Rings he said in the last movie the writers wrote that the Gollom side was "less dangerous becuase of his passion, lust and agression were true hot-blooded emotions" and the Smeagol side was "cold, calculating, passive-aggressive phychopath who play-acted being the victim to get his own way." Since it was done in the reshoots that was when they were trying to get closer to the book.