Of Bombadillos and Balrogs - Page 3 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

12-28-2001, 06:43 PM

Why is it that Tom is such a fascinating individual to all who read these books?

Yaish · 01-01-2002, 07:28 PM

I know I shouldnt, but I am. I'm wieghing in on this thread you had all hoped died and went away.

First, I am getting my source on the Balrog wings from LoTR ISBN0-618-00222-7. Its a pretty recent edition, with the most accurate revisions based on JRRT's own notes and finished copies. There are several errors in many other editions, and some in this one too no doubt, but here's what it says.

First, as to size I thing Balrogs were mostly man-sized, but a little larger. Several reasons. First, the balrog was on the other side of the "great fissure" that had cut off the orcs. Now orcs being of roughly less than man size couldnt leap it. The Balrog did, but it states he did so in a rush, implying that he needed a running start. A truly humongous creature would have just stepped across. Second as to size, he is able to stand ON the bridge, which is stated as to be narrow enough to force enemies to cross single file. If he is substantially larger than a man he wouldnt likely be able to stand on the bridge. Next, he and Gandalf exchange a sword blow. Glamdrind shatters the balrogs blade but Gandolf is swayed by the blow. In other instances Gandalf is shoved, pushed, pulled, etc like a normal man of his size, so the Balrogs blow must not have been so immense as to simply sweep him off the bridge. As well, it says "drew itself up to a great height" implying that before it was NOT a great height, but now was. Also "drew up" simply means to straighten, so this was its natural maximum height. This seems to indicate a being not much larger than a human that it could be not a great height one minute and a great height the next, simply by straightening. (I am thinking a sort of hunched, brooding pose at first). Next, "the thongs lashed and curled about the wizards knees, dragging him to the brink" Dragging, not knocking him. This means the whip, with balrog holding it was twined about Gandalfs knees. Since it then states he hung for a moment, and was drug, that the balrog cannot have any great weight. So, I would say no more then twice the size of a man.

Ok, wings:
"...and the shadow about it reached out LIKE two vast wings" ok, metaphor. Then, two paragraphs later "... but the darkness grew..its wings were spread from wall to wall."
Unless JRRT uses metaphor significantly different than most authors, he is still talking about the shadow. Since wall to wall fleshly wings on a 12 ft high being dontmake sense (what, were they rolled up before?) he seems to imply that the wings were the shadow he spoke of earlier, the darkness that grew.

Ok, Tom. Ever make something and have parts left over? Or better yet draw something and all of a sudden you notice there is something in the drawing you didnt make, like a face in the bark of a tree, or a pattern in the reflection off the lake? Thats Tom Bombadil. I think he was accidentally created from the leftover magic used in the shaping of middle earth. Not the creator, nor anyone else, just there since the beginning, and wholly unique.

01-02-2002, 05:57 AM

Tom put the ring on a didn't dissapear i just remembered that! And in the movie Sauron does the same thing!

Elrian · 01-02-2002, 07:53 AM

True, but all you see of Sauron in the movie is a suit of armor, and a staff that could throw many warriors clear across a battlefield! The invisibility effect might have only happened to those of no power.

Phil The Balrog · 01-03-2002, 01:20 AM

Does anyone every think about the fact that the name Tom Bombadil is pretty unique? Every other middle earth name is fairly similar - Elrond, Frodo, Gandalf, Morgoth, etc etc etc. They all have that middle earth likeness. Tom Bombadil is pretty strange compared to Fingolfin and the like. Maybe he's not from Middle Earth at all. Perhaps he just visiting.

Arvedui · 01-05-2002, 12:04 AM

When the Hobbits are with Tom, it is petty clear that the ring does nothing to Tom. He is not tempted by it, he does not become invisible, nothing happens, and he really doesn't care about it. Since Sauron's power has no effect on Tom, then Tom is a superior power and more powerful than the Dark Lord. So it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Tom could be a Vala. He wouldn't be a Maia, because Gandalf and Saruman are said to be Maiar several times in the books, and they are tempted by the ring. So Tom is obviously more powerful than a Maia. The only thing more powerful than a Maia is a Vala.

Elenhin · 01-05-2002, 04:33 AM

The fact that Tom is not tempted by, or affected by, the Ring doesn't mean that he's more powerful than Sauron. He just isn't interested in anything the Ring could probably offer, so he has no reason to want it.

And Tom can't be a Vala anyway. All the Valar are described, and none of them is like Tom at all.

01-02-2002, 07:53 AM	#84
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	True, but all you see of Sauron in the movie is a suit of armor, and a staff that could throw many warriors clear across a battlefield! The invisibility effect might have only happened to those of no power. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

01-03-2002, 01:20 AM	#85
Phil The Balrog Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 11	Does anyone every think about the fact that the name Tom Bombadil is pretty unique? Every other middle earth name is fairly similar - Elrond, Frodo, Gandalf, Morgoth, etc etc etc. They all have that middle earth likeness. Tom Bombadil is pretty strange compared to Fingolfin and the like. Maybe he's not from Middle Earth at all. Perhaps he just visiting. __________________ -Yes, I'm Phil the Balrog.

01-05-2002, 12:04 AM	#86
Arvedui Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Annúminas Posts: 56	When the Hobbits are with Tom, it is petty clear that the ring does nothing to Tom. He is not tempted by it, he does not become invisible, nothing happens, and he really doesn't care about it. Since Sauron's power has no effect on Tom, then Tom is a superior power and more powerful than the Dark Lord. So it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Tom could be a Vala. He wouldn't be a Maia, because Gandalf and Saruman are said to be Maiar several times in the books, and they are tempted by the ring. So Tom is obviously more powerful than a Maia. The only thing more powerful than a Maia is a Vala. __________________ When Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule of the south in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided forever.

12-28-2001, 06:43 PM	#81
Beren Guest Posts: n/a	Why is it that Tom is such a fascinating individual to all who read these books?

01-01-2002, 07:28 PM	#82
Yaish Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NC Posts: 20	I know I shouldnt, but I am. I'm wieghing in on this thread you had all hoped died and went away. First, I am getting my source on the Balrog wings from LoTR ISBN0-618-00222-7. Its a pretty recent edition, with the most accurate revisions based on JRRT's own notes and finished copies. There are several errors in many other editions, and some in this one too no doubt, but here's what it says. First, as to size I thing Balrogs were mostly man-sized, but a little larger. Several reasons. First, the balrog was on the other side of the "great fissure" that had cut off the orcs. Now orcs being of roughly less than man size couldnt leap it. The Balrog did, but it states he did so in a rush, implying that he needed a running start. A truly humongous creature would have just stepped across. Second as to size, he is able to stand ON the bridge, which is stated as to be narrow enough to force enemies to cross single file. If he is substantially larger than a man he wouldnt likely be able to stand on the bridge. Next, he and Gandalf exchange a sword blow. Glamdrind shatters the balrogs blade but Gandolf is swayed by the blow. In other instances Gandalf is shoved, pushed, pulled, etc like a normal man of his size, so the Balrogs blow must not have been so immense as to simply sweep him off the bridge. As well, it says "drew itself up to a great height" implying that before it was NOT a great height, but now was. Also "drew up" simply means to straighten, so this was its natural maximum height. This seems to indicate a being not much larger than a human that it could be not a great height one minute and a great height the next, simply by straightening. (I am thinking a sort of hunched, brooding pose at first). Next, "the thongs lashed and curled about the wizards knees, dragging him to the brink" Dragging, not knocking him. This means the whip, with balrog holding it was twined about Gandalfs knees. Since it then states he hung for a moment, and was drug, that the balrog cannot have any great weight. So, I would say no more then twice the size of a man. Ok, wings: "...and the shadow about it reached out LIKE two vast wings" ok, metaphor. Then, two paragraphs later "... but the darkness grew..its wings were spread from wall to wall." Unless JRRT uses metaphor significantly different than most authors, he is still talking about the shadow. Since wall to wall fleshly wings on a 12 ft high being dontmake sense (what, were they rolled up before?) he seems to imply that the wings were the shadow he spoke of earlier, the darkness that grew. Ok, Tom. Ever make something and have parts left over? Or better yet draw something and all of a sudden you notice there is something in the drawing you didnt make, like a face in the bark of a tree, or a pattern in the reflection off the lake? Thats Tom Bombadil. I think he was accidentally created from the leftover magic used in the shaping of middle earth. Not the creator, nor anyone else, just there since the beginning, and wholly unique.

01-02-2002, 05:57 AM	#83
Enedcolloion Guest Posts: n/a	Tom put the ring on a didn't dissapear i just remembered that! And in the movie Sauron does the same thing!

01-05-2002, 04:33 AM	#87
Elenhin Wight Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Vantaa, Finland Posts: 205	The fact that Tom is not tempted by, or affected by, the Ring doesn't mean that he's more powerful than Sauron. He just isn't interested in anything the Ring could probably offer, so he has no reason to want it. And Tom can't be a Vala anyway. All the Valar are described, and none of them is like Tom at all.