Effects of the Rings of Power

[Tinuviel of Denton]

All right, if there is a similar topic out there, the search function wasn't working for me (my computer's funny that way) and I beg your indulgence.

In FotR, when Gandalf is explaining to Frodo what the Ring is, he says something about the Rings of Power that I suddenly found interesting.

A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, her merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the deark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later--later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with--sooner or later the dark power will devour him.

Now, I was wondering if these effects would include the Three, or would they only include the Nine, the Seven and the One because Sauron had a hand in and/or made them?

[Nils]

Sauron did not make the seven or the nine rings or the three for that matter. PJ got that one wrong.

AFAIK, the only major difference between the three and the other 16 was that the 3 did not make one invisible. The 3 were crafted using knowledge that Sauron gave the Elves, but he never came into possession of them.

[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

[Tinuviel of Denton]

I was not referring to the movies in any case. Sauron DID in fact have a hand in making the Seven and the Nine.

In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labors and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves...

The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. (emphasis mine)

The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-Lords hid from him, and his hand never touched them or sullied them. Seven the Dwarf-Kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them.

Fellowship of the Ring, Shadow of the Past.

PJ never said that Sauron made the Nine or the Seven. Do try to keep from mixing up your movies and books.

[Nils]

I was not referring to the movies in any case. Sauron DID in fact have a hand in making the Seven and the Nine.

My comment was made because you said "Sauron had a hand in and/or made them?".

The quote you gave makes it quite clear that Sauron did not make them. Since the movie implied that he did, I figured that was probably where you got the idea.

In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labors and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves...

Notice that this quote does not limit Sauron's guiding to just the 16. Sauron gave them knowledge that allowed the Elves to create the rings of power, which includes the three. How else could he take dominance over the three? There must have been some link to Sauron's power in their making.

PJ never said that Sauron made the Nine or the Seven.

It was definitely implied.

Do try to keep from mixing up your movies and books.

I wasn't the one who posted the possibility that Sauron created the 16. You did. I think you should take your own advice.

[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

[Tinuviel of Denton]

First of all, there were twenty rings, and twenty minus three equals SEVENTEEN, not sixteen.

And my statement that Sauron had a hand in and/or made them was referring to the fact that he made the One and at least helped in the making of the Seven and the Nine.

My question was anyway not about whether Sauron made the Rings, but whether the Three would have the same effects as say, the Nine had, because Sauron never touched them.

[Nils]

My question was anyway not about whether Sauron made the Rings, but whether the Three would have the same effects as say, the Nine had, because Sauron never touched them.

Sorry for the miscommunication.

As I said in the first post, the major difference between the three and the others is that the three do not confer invisibility.

From Letter 131

The Elves of Eregion made Three Supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

[Yavanna228]

First of all, there were twenty rings, and twenty minus three equals SEVENTEEN, not sixteen.

Let's not be petty, guys.
Tinuviel raises a good question, and I'm quite interested in what the discussion will yield.
I do believe Nils was 'leveling out the playing field' by making sure any possible misconceptions were dispelled before he got into the main debate.
Personally, I wonder if Sauron's influence in itself on the Three would be enough to taint their powers. But then again, the virtue of those who wielded them would have an effect if the rings were 'evil' or not.
Peace

[Tinuviel of Denton]

So would they still confer the "thin, stretched" feeling of the others? That you have yet to answer.

And if they did not confer invisibility, that half of the question is answered. No, a mortal would not fade because he wouldn't become invisible to begin with. Why did it take so long to get that much, I wonder?

Edit: And I'm sorry if I was petty. I was also frustrated.

[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

[Nils]

So would they still confer the "thin, stretched" feeling of the others?

People became invisible because they were being dominated by Sauron. Dwarves could not be dominated because Aule created them that way, therefore their rings did not make them invisible.

Dwarves who had the rings did not have their lives increased. They still died of old age.

No invisibility = No increased lifespan

Therefore I'd say that the Elven rings did not "confer the 'thin, stretched' feeling of the others".

I believe the 'thin, stretched' feeling is fading. As an incarnate being ages, its body gets consumed by its soul. In Middle-earth(outside Lothlorien under Galadriel's influence while using her ring), the fading process occurs much more rapidly than in the Blessed Land.

A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, her merely continues

Obviously a mortal who wears the rings does continue to age. They don't die. Therefore literally they do get more life. Yet it is an unnatural life. They don't get more natural life. Their bodies are consumed and they become wraiths.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

True about the fëa; however a mortal wearing a Ring does not continue to age in the normal way. Bilbo didn't, and Gollum didn't. They were, as you say, 'thin' and 'stretched', but their lives did continue and they endured. The Ring in this case was perhaps retaining and preserving the wearer from ageing, while, as you say, the continued burning of the spirit wears it down.

What I am saying is that the body of a Ring-wearer didn't age as such, in terms of the ageing usually sustained in the process of getting old, but that the unnatural prolongment of it sort of tired and depressed both the spirit and the body -- as you have said, the fëa probably drains it of its vitality. Eventually, of course, a wraith-like state is reached, but even then the body is still active and not yet 'consumed' as you suggest. A wraith seems to be a being that has come to be utterly devoted and attached to Sauron's power, irretrievably invisible, rather than one who has lost the power in his body and become a mere shade because of it. The Ringwraiths did have bodies, and apparently quite serviable ones (presumably filled with the projected essence of Sauron); Merry's sword certainly pierced 'undead flesh' when he stabbed the Witch King on the Pellenor. The Nine Rings were probably just as effective, perhaps more, as the One in effecting an 'invisible', life-prolonged and dominated state, as that is what they were designed for -- the One containing more power, it was actually in origin designed as a tool of power for Sauron's personal use, rather than to make a connection with someone else as a channel through which Sauron could feed power.

The effect of the One may also have been worse to the body than that of the Nine. As I said, the Rings seem to in effect preserve the body from ageing, but keep it in contact with the damaging fëa; but the One may have had a worse effect in that it had a burning power of its own. The burning of the fëa may have been combined with the sheer power of the One, to produce a rather nasty 'double' effect on the bearer.
This may explain why as those in servitude to the Nine were strengthened by them, the owner of the One appears to be weakened and bowed down by it -- although toughened and preserved in the bodily sense, the spirit at least was 'thinned'. Just a theory, anyway.

[Osse]

I was under the impression that the Nine, did not have the ability to turn the user invisible, nor did the Seven. There powers were different; power and the abilty to amass wealth. I thought the One gave power according to it's users stature, i doubt that Sauron or perhaps even Gandalf would have turned invisible when wearing the ring. The One increased hearing and turned the user invisible, for Smeagol and Bilbo/Frodo, but these characters were all closely akin.

I thought that the Nine would just give Power, without any visible symptoms, but slowly turn the user into a wraith (how fast depended on the sincerity of the users' original intentions)

Osse

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Nils]

I thought that the Nine would just give Power, without any visible symptoms, but slowly turn the user into a wraith (how fast depended on the sincerity of the users' original intentions)

From Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age:

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing.They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by the eyes in this world beneath the sun

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I have always associated the invisibility the rings confer to the ability of entering into the 'invisible world'. In my opinion, the ability confered by the rings is not mere invisibility, but the entering into this invisible world which as a result makes the ring-bearer invisible in the 'real world'.

Gandalf, Sauron, the elves that have lived in Aman like Glorfindel, have already a pressence in the invisible world, and therefore, it is reasonable that the rings didn't affect them in this way. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Mmmm, possibly; a world of the Rings, a world that emanates from Sauron and in which evil pulses strongly. This can be an interpretation of the 'domination of Sauron' invisibility theory, which probably works the same way -- if an individual was under this domination and in this state, he was probably in connection, through the power of Sauron, with others in the same state.

[Firnantoonion]

I always the ring didn't let you live longer (not in such a direct way) but that it merely stopped time for the one who weared it. in this case, when you lose the ring, you are technically spoken, the same age as when you got the ring. this also explains why gollum could live further after he lost the ring; he still had some 60 years or so, because he was a relative young hobbit when he got it.

(yikes, my first post)

[Novberaid]

I think the Three Elven rings had remained pure because Sauron never posessed them. When the fellowship entered Lothlorien time flowed at a different rate. That was why the stars seemed different to them when they left. They were called the Rings of Power, therefore they all must have posessed some powers that Sauron wanted to control.