Tactical Discussion-Warg Charge

[WarBringer]

Thanks to Neurion for the idea-----One of the most fearsome displays of evil's power would have to be a charge of Wargs. In your opinion, what would be the best way to combat a charge of these enormous wolves, ridden by fearsome orcs?

[King of the North]

There is already a thread very similar in movies, here it is

click here

[Formendacil]

Something to note too is that book Wargs (real Wargs, setting aside the Warg and Warg Rider Appreciation Thread) as described in The Hobbit:

The Wargs and the goblins often helped one another in their wicked deeds. Goblins do not usually venture very far from their mountains, unless they are driven out and are looking of rnew homes, or are marching to war (which I am happy to say has not happened for a long while). But in those days they sometimes used to go on raids, especially to get slaves to work for them. Then they often got the Wargs to help and shared the plunder with them. Sometimes they rode on wolves like men do on horses. Now it seemed that....
-Out of the Frying Pan Into the Fire

Take especial note of the sentence I have underlined. Sometimes they (the goblins[/u] rode on wolves. The indication, it would seem, is that Warg-riding was the exception and not the norm. In addition, the only encounter with Wargs in The Lord of the Rings is just after Caradhras, and just before Moria, and it is TOTALLY ork-less.

The whole movie-invented idea of Warg-riders in the service of Saruman is just that, a movie-invented idea. I seem to recollect that there MIGHT be a passage somewhere referring to wolf-riders in Saruman's host, although I can't find it, and might be imagining it, but it is certainly true that there were no Wargs in the host of Isengard.

Every indication is that the Wargs did not, in fact, typically get ridden (although the above passage and the Battle of the Five Armies will show that it was certainly not unheard of). And in any case, I believe that there is ample evidence in The Hobbit as to the ferociousness of the Wargs on their own.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

As to references to orcish wolf-riders, in Unfinished Tales,
"The Battles Of The Fords Of Isen":

Saruman's eastern force came down with unexpected speed; it was much smaller than the western force, but more dangerous. In its van were some Dunlending horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orcish wolfriders, feared by horses. Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles. The horsemen and wolfriders fell on the horse-herds and picketed horses and slew or dispersed them.

And later in the chapter, about the second battle of the Fords of Isen:

More than half of Saruman's force had actually been sent down east of Isen. They came on more slowly than the western division, for the land was rougher and without roads; and they bore no lights. But before them, swift and silent, went several troops of the dreaded wolfriders. Before Elfhelm had any warning of the approach of enemies on his side of the river the wolfriders were between him and Grimbold's camp; and they were also attempting to surround each of his small groups of Riders. It was dark and all his force was in disarray. He gathered all that he could into a close body of horsemen, but he was obliged to retreat eastward. He could not reach Grimbold, though he knew that he was in straits and had been about to come to his aid when attacked by the wolfriders. But he also guessed rightly that the wolfriders were only the forerunners of a force far too great for him to oppose that would make for the southern road.

And in a footnote:

They were swift and skilled in avoiding ordered men in close array, being used mostly to destroy isolated groups or to hunt down fugitives; but at need they would pass with reckless ferocity through any gaps in companies of horsemen, slashing at the bellies of the horses. [Christopher Tolkien note]

Also note the interesting note of Dunlending cavalry.

I picture Tolkien's wargs not as the ridiculously-sized PJ whatevers, but
more as wolfs on steroids, big and mean, but still recognizably wolfish.

[WarBringer]

Exactly what I was getting at, Tuor- Good Post.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

I picture Tolkien's wargs not as the ridiculously-sized PJ whatevers, but more as wolfs on steroids, big and mean, but still recognizably wolfish.

Yes, you have hit it right on the head Tuor. This is how I see them in my mind's eye.

Originally Posted by King of the North

There is already a thread very similar in movies, here it is click here

Yeah, but that is for the hyenas in the movies. As you can see from Tuor's post, it was in Unfinished Tales, hence a thread in the 'Books' forum.

[mormegil]

But how big do you mean when you say a wolf on Steroids? If they were ridden at times they would need to be substantially larger than the average wolf. I would say at least a lion size but even still would that be sufficiently large to carry an orc into combat and be effective?

[mormegil]

But getting to the question of how to handle a Warg Charge....I think you would need to handle it the same as you would a horse charge...take out as many as you can with archers and then form a strong spear/pike line. And after they break through wait to be ravished....However if you have horsemen I think you would have the advantage of tactics. Unlike horses wargs can have a will of their own and decide to dissent in opinion of the orc rider (assuming they are riding). Horses are submissive and will go where there master commands but wargs might not and may have objectives of their own differing from their orc riders....make any sense?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Well, I too pictured them as big fluffy wolves on 'roids, twice the size of a real wolf, but not as big as a bear ... with pointy snouts and jagged craws.

But the hyena idea is not an innaccurate depiction. The definition of wolf in a dictionary often makes mention of "other similar species; hyenas".

Of course, that simply means when I read the books, I have a different idea in mind than what I've seen in the movies.

It seemed to me that Saruman was the only one employing warg-riders ... who were smaller orcs of the Misty Mountain variety (obviously a warg would have trouble supporting a massive Uruk-Hai) ... goblins of the like from the Hobbit.

But there was mention of wargs howling on the Pelennor, and fearful cries, weren't there? And Gandalf did mention that Sauron housed wargs (and werewolves - his loyal creatures, remnants of his force on Tol Sirion) at Barad-Dur.

Naturally harsh, barren terrain like Mordor wasn't prime wolf territory like the pine woods around the Misty Mountains ... so that would be a big explanation.

As for the best way to combat wargs ...

Arrows. Archers on the high ground have always been effective against cavalry.

[Maerbenn]

The Professor hints at the nature of Wargs in a footnote to letter #297:

The word Warg used in The Hobbit and the L.R. for an evil breed of (demonic) wolves is not supposed to be A-S specifically, and is given prim. Germanic form as representing the noun common to the Northmen of these creatures.

[WarBringer]

Wargs are much more fierce than horses, it is in their every nature (they're wolfish and eat meat!), so i don't think that the same tactics as a horse charge would apply here.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Orcs would be wise to use hungry Wargs; they'd be even more bloodthirsty then.

[WarBringer]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Orcs would be wise to use hungry Wargs; they'd be even more bloodthirsty then.

A cruel, yet effective tactic (yet perhaps I forget whom I am talking about!)

Here's an idea. Wargs do not strike me as necessarily the smartest creatures, and they are certainly reckless and agressive. The use of pitfalls and other such hidden traps would easily slow a charge, if one had time to prepare them. For the short term, a barbed wire type wall (almost like a trip wire) or a spear wall might be effective.

[eowyntje]

Originally Posted by mormegil

But how big do you mean when you say a wolf on Steroids? If they were ridden at times they would need to be substantially larger than the average wolf. I would say at least a lion size but even still would that be sufficiently large to carry an orc into combat and be effective?

I think it depends on the kind of orcs that rode these wolfs, there are different kind of orcs of different sizes. Small races of orcs would be weak as infantry, but very usefull as wolfriders.
I couldn't find any information about what kind of orcs rode the wargs. Keeper of Dol Guldur mentioned that they were small, perhaps he knows.

As for fighting against wolfriders, that would not be easy. When defending a castle I don't tihnk wolves are a big thretah to stone walls, but in open fields (and I assume that is where Saruman used his wolfrides are that is where they would be most effective) they would be veyr hard to stop.
I think arrows and barred wire would indee dbe effetcive methods, anything that allows you to stay a few armlengths away from the wargs. Also, in the hobbit Bilbo and the dwarfs were followed by wolves and climbed in trees to escape them, so perhaps Archers on high places like in trees or watchtowers would be able to fight them.
Normal wolves are afraid of fire, so perhaps that would also be a way to fight or at leats scare the wargs. But it is very likely that demonic wolves like wargs are not afraid of fire.

[WarBringer]

Actually, according to the hobbit, wargs are afraid of fire, because that is precisely what Gandalf uses to kill several wolves and wargs.

[Felagund]

I have heard much about traps and pitfalls and the like in this thread... but this brings a question to my mind... has anyone actually seen any record in any battle of middle-earth that speaks of field fortifications, or the use of such things as wire and traps? I for one have not, with the sole exception of the wall surrounding the Pelennor fields, which was abandoned as being undefensible in the afce of Sauron's onslaught.
It seems to me that there is not much in the way of stratgey or formation in the combats of middle-earth. The fighting to me seems more of the "old" style, ie pre-Roman British wildmen charges. I have heard no tell of shield walls, or wedges for cavalry, or any mixed formation of pikes and archers. It seems to be all charge and counter-charge. However, to be fair, the most detailed battle accounts I have seen come from the Silmarillion, so perhaps tactics did evolve over the course of a few ages? I doubt it.
The account of the Battle of the Five Armies, which conveniently enough demonstrates the use of wolf-riders, was, as far as I could tell, a shoving match between the two sides. The elves and men took up positions on the arms of the mountain, the dwarves took their stand at the base, and then the black tide swept into them. Here begins the shoving match, as the elves and men sallied forth from the mountainside, pushing back the goblins and wolves with great slaughter, until Bolg and his bodyguard brought up reinforcements and pushed the allies back up the mountain.
Also referenced in that battle, it is said the Elven-King brought archers and spearmen, but no mention is made of any formation. The battles seem to be a mass of one-on-one fights rather than formations and companies brought to bear against each other.

On another note, pertaining to combat in Middle-earth, personal defense doesn't seem to be an issue to most parties involved. The Rangers of the North on the fields of the Pelennor had either swords, spears, or bows, but no mention was made of armor or shields of any sort. The wood elves encountered by The Grey Company in Lorien carried bows and swords; again no armor. However, I also assume these troops are not meant to be infantry, per se, so this may account for the lack of armor. How heavily armored are most middle-earth combatants?

I have deviated however. The best way to take a charge of wargs (ridden or unridden) is definitely NOT with cavalry. I doubt the horses could stand to charge the wolves, plus the use of horse as weapon is lost, because the warg is a much better weapon. Heavy infantry is the only way to do it, regardless of how they are equipped. I bet dwarves would do well, as axes could do horrible damage to both wolf and rider. Sorry for rambling, it's my first post and I got excited.

[mormegil]

Well first I would like to say welcome to The Downs to Felagund. And than I would like to address your question.

I agree that we don't see traps and wires used in the books but, as I am one of those that mentions it in this thread, I would assert that I put it forth as my way of handling a warg charge. Not saying this is how. I found that if they could do that there is a possibility that it wouuld be effective.

Secondly, I think that Tolkien didn't write much about warfare tatics and that's why we speculate.

So you are suggesting though that heavily armored warriors or dwarves, again heavily armored, would be able to stop a charge? I like the thought, however, I wonder if you would incorporate archers shooting the Wargs before the onslaught? Would pikemen play any role? Do you think that Men, Elves, or Dwarves would be best in this and why? I wouldn't pick dwarves, while stong and steadfast I don't think they would have the needed speed to dodge the Wargs. Which leave us, in my opinion, as elves or men.

I don't have much time now to consider that one but I would like your opinion on that.

[Felagund]

I guess elves would have to be the obvious choice. If any of the Noldor in exile at Rivendell (before they left) could have been coaxed out to fight a warg-charge to settle our debate, I'd say they'd perform the best. The High Elves were by far the best warriors of all the free peoples of Middle-Earth. They are stronger, and faster, and more resistant to injury and wounds than men, and the Light of the Trees would be still in their eyes (or the Light of Aman in their faces, Tolkien uses both phrases excessively in the Silmarillion). The elves were meant to be the mightiest peoples of Arda. So I'd say I guess they'd do the best. It would be a cake-walk for Glorfindel (who it is possible might have been the same Glorfindel who slew the Balrog at the fall of Gondolin? What's the concensus on that one?).

As to tactics, obviously mixed formation pikes, archers. A reserve of melee armed troops to plug gaps in the line or dispatch any of the wargs who got inside the reach of the pikes would also be a necessity.

[WarBringer]

Before I comment on this, I would like to commend Felagund for his excellent posts. Welcome to the Downs!

First, I want to say that we need to remember that the discussion of battle formation is not necessarily an exciting read. and in general would have clashed with Tolkein's goal of writing a folk tale for Britain. ALL ARMIES, no matter what, need formation. Some movies like the idea of masses of "good guys" charging with the leader at the head and wreaking havoc, but this is unrealistic. Armies have used formation since the start of war, and since I would place the army type of most armies of LOTR in our middle ages, it is safe to assume that they would also use formation. An example of formation in LOTR would be Rohan's eored, which is a cavalry formation. Order and organization almost always prevails in warfare(i.e. Rome versues the Barbarians).


Secondly, and more on topic, I believe that Elves would be best to face Wargs. Dwarves are steadfast but like the arm length and height to deal with a strong cavalry charge, and honestly, men are simply less talented then elves, if similar in build. Elves are agile, skillfull warriors with strong weapons, the ability to launch ranged attacks with great accuracy, and excellence at swordplay. To use Felagund's example, an elf such as Glorfindel would not have much trouble with wargs, so it is safe to assume that an army of elves of somewhat lesser skill could also topple a charge of wargs.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Felagund

It would be a cake-walk for Glorfindel (who it is possible might have been the same Glorfindel who slew the Balrog at the fall of Gondolin? What's the concensus on that one?).

I don't know that there is a concensus on that point. It seems to be a fairly difficult debate. Not quite the question "do balrogs have wings" but it's up there.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Glorfindel of Gondolin and of Rivendell is indeed one and the same person; I don't have a quote at hand to give proof, but try using the search function for his name, and you should come up with some helpful previous discussions.

[WarBringer]

I cannot find a quote at the moment, but off the top of my head I believe Gandalf stated that NOT EVEN Glorfindel and Aragorn could withstand the Ringwraiths, which would be a testament to their power. Beyond that, it is simply known that Glorfindel was reincarnated and resided in Rivendell.

Another possible defense to a warg charge would simply be to gain higher ground, thereby lowering the effect of the added height given by a warg, and giving the defenders time to strike before the wargs could.

[Osse]

<NOTE: To avoid boredom, please skip to 'Section II'>


The only verified instance where Orcs/Goblins rode Wargs is during the Battle of Five Armies.

If you think about it, the Wargs were not really being used as chargers by their Goblin riders, but rather the Goblins are riding shotgun, as it were, to the Warg.

Here you have a huge, demonic wolf with an IQ far higher than the average Orc...

Who's controlling who?

I'd always imagined that the orc was really just clinging on for dear life as this gigantic beast ran around ripping the throats out of people underneath it - the orc just hacked and swung as best he could from his hairy vantage point. Tolkien explained, in the Hobbit, that the alliance between the Goblins and Wargs was only a tempory truce, that the races had had many a tiff, and they only joined together because it was convenient. He also mentions that the Warg was as likely to get stuck into his ally as his enemy.

As for how to counter a Warg charge: Spearmen.

A wolf's range is severly limited; it can only attack those foes within jaw-reach or within range of its forelegs. As for the rider, unless he is equipped with a spear himself, he has similarly limited range.

Someone above mentioned using pikemen or spearmen in a defensive line, much in the same way one would counter a regular calvary charge. This tactic would be highly effective against charging Wargs, with or without riders - as long as the line held, and didn't lose its nerve, and as long as the defenders had time to prepare it. However, even if there is no time to prepare a defensive line and the force being charged is already engaged, by far the best weapon for tackling Wargs is a medium-length, strong spear, with a broad head preferably. A spear keeps the defender out of range of the weapons of both Warg and rider, whilst putting them in a good position to pull the rider out of the saddle and thrust at the Warg's exposed flanks. Of course, the defenders would be less effective against regular infantry, or de-wolfed goblins, and would need to outnumber the Wargs quite considerably - otherwise, spear or not, the Wargs would tear the defenders apart.

Dwarves - Heavily armoured infantry would be rather too slow and cumbersome to be effective against the quick, agile and deadly Wargs, needing plenty of time to menouver. Also, the short-ranged axe would be quite hard to utilise against a fast moving Warg and would only be able to be used once the initial charge is over, and then only from the sides of the beast, where the jaws and forelimbs are less effective. Added to this, if a heavily armoured infantryman is knocked down by a Warg, he is far less capable of defending himself, and when on the ground is nearly useless, whereas a lightly armoured spearman would be able to still have good range of motion, being unencumbered by bulky arms and armour.

Felagund, it's my opinion that Dwarves would only be effective in large numbers, as a Warg can easily outpace and outmanouver a lone, fully-armoured, axe or mattock-wielding Dwarf, so the Dwarves would need to out-number their attackers.

Archers: Good for thinning out advancing groups of Wargs or wolfriders, but at close quarters are near-useless unless equipped with some other weaponry.


************************************************** ******
Section II
************************************************** ******

(The race of the troop types mentioned matters little in my theories, as Elves and Men (if not Dwarves and Hobbits) can perform their roles quite well, they require discipline, but not particularly great skill, obviously Elves would probably mop the enemy up quicker... <cord pulled>)

An ideal (at least in my humble opinion) situation for repelling a wolf/Warg charge would be:

1. Gain possesion of higher ground, preferably a hill with a bottle-neck or choke point, so that your troops can be concentrated against the one direction of assault and avoid being flanked.

2. Position lightly armoured troops, armed with both spear and sword below crest or crown of hill, in a well formed line consisting of two or three ranks, those behind supporting their kneeling comrades. Position archers behind this defensive barrier, laying down volley after volley until charge is upon the defensive line. Ensure either archers are equipped with hand to hand weaponry, or have a group of heavy/medium infantry defending them.

3. Once the charge has hit the lines, keep troops fighting in small or medium sized groups so as their spears have most effect against the wolves and their riders (keep them aware of possible supporting enemy infantry coming on scene, or have back up infantry/archers support the spearmen)

4. Mop up surviving Goblins and Wargs, have archers fire at any retreating.

5. Cheer, blow horns, dance around, sing.

6. Get really, really drunk.




Regards,
Osse

[WarBringer]

Originally Posted by Osse

<
5. Cheer, blow horns, dance around, sing.
6. Get really, really drunk.

Sounds good to me

In all sincerity, I like the idea of a choke point, not only to prevent being flanked, but also to allow for one spearman to hold off many wargs, if the passage was narrow enough (i.e. axeman holding off Britons at Stamford Bridge, 1066)

[Glofin]

Before I begin I would like to make clear a few things about Calvary tactics. (And this comes from allot of Historical study on the matter from 500 BC to 1600 AD)

There are many different kinds of Calvary and their uses can differ greatly. Warg Riders strike me as a skirmishing Calvary force. And their function was not only to charge head long in the enemy.

Orcs did not use horses, therefore when it was possible, like in a well organized Orc army such as fought the battles around the Fords of the Isen they would give an Orc army an extra element of mobility. Which could be very useful against a normally very mobile enemy such as the Riders of Rohan.

Using them to attack the sides of Calvary unties and cut at the horses bellies or attack isolated groups of men, or wounded or routing soldiers seems to be what they were used for mostly. Also being a vanguard of a army, and making quick hit and run tactics to soften up the enemy before the main body of troops arrived.

Those are classic Skirmishing Calvary tactics. They are not heavily armed or equipped like the men of Rohan and therefore or not best suited for a headlong charge. This sort of thing was rarely done by light-Calvary. And it seems that the only time that it was done in Middle Earth was at the Battle of Five Armies where the Warg-Riders charged, as it seems in mass. (Correct me if I’m wrong on that) But there the Orcs so outnumbered everyone else that it didn’t really matter.

I don’t think I have ever heard of Warg-Riders and Calvary charging head long at each other. (Unlike in the movies) This is because the Warg-Riders would be on the losing end for sure. However big and fierce a Warg is, and the rider on top of it, I do not think it would match the weight of a say a Rider of Rohan in armour. The shear impact of heavy Calvary head would be enough to smash through nearly anything accept maybe a wall of spears. Also you would have to account that the Riders of Rohan would be armed with heavy spears,(a relatively long-range combat weapon as opposed to say a sword) which were the same as early lances. The only difference being that the shaft is more heavier than a normal fighting spear or else the shaft would break on contact. (And still did even with a lance)



Now to recap:

Skirmishing tactics are not full on attracts, but are raiding and hit and run tactics to cause some casualties, but mainly fear and disorganization. This in turn makes the moral of troops go down, so that say when the Uruks arrived their job would be that much easier.

Skirmishing tactics include activities such as these the Warg-Riders are mentioned to have done. (And thanks for Tour of Gondolin for posting them!)

“Saruman's eastern force came down with unexpected speed; it was much smaller than the western force, but more dangerous. In its van were some Dunlending horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orcish wolfriders, feared by horses.”

Skirmishing calvary used surprise as one of their main weapons. They were fast and lightly armed so as to move quickly and quietly.

“The horsemen and wolfriders fell on the horse-herds and picketed horses and slew or dispersed them.”

Attacking weak points another tactic of Skirmishing Calvary. Other such targets would be supply lines, the wounded, and small groups of soldiers caught in the open.

“They were swift and skilled in avoiding ordered men in close array, being used mostly to destroy isolated groups or to hunt down fugitives; but at need they would pass with reckless ferocity through any gaps in companies of horsemen, slashing at the bellies of the horses. [Christopher Tolkien note]”

All these things are classic Skirmishing Calvary tactics. Btw I might add that the fact a target would be a horses belly might be a indication of the size of a Warg. I would imagine that only smaller Orcs (hence why Goblins seem to be the majority of Warg-Riders) would be light enough to ride on a Warg. And then they most likely wear little or no armour and carry a close combat slashing weapon perfect for quick hit and run fights. Used in these ways (as they were) Warg-Riders would indeed be feared.

Now how to combat these?

Things such as traps on a battlefield would be largely useless I would think. Warg-Riders are scent in mainly when the enemy does not know they are coming. They were also used as scouts so they would most likely know of any traps set for them. But for the most part they would prefer to attack out of the blue. That is why they are effective.

Archers would only work if they were protected by closely packed spearmen. But then they would be very affective against Warg-Riders. Archers without this kind of protection would be I would think an easy target if the Warg-Riders moved quickly or took them by surprise. Though the terrine could change the situation.

I should also add that riding down archers was something that Skirmishing and Light Calvary did, where have a Knight of instance would not. His job would be to smash head long into the enemy lines and ride over everything in his path.


Also never underestimate heavily armoured dwarves axe men. In the Wars of the Irish against the English the Axe was a feared weapon of the Irish, (and of the Norse from whom they borrowed it)

A Gallowglass was a Irish elite warrior who fought only on foot, and uses weapon was ether a two handed axe (not two headed!), or a two handed sword which was used in later times. They always wore helmets and full coats of mail over padded clothing.

It was they who were able to Norman (English) Knights in a full charge. This they would do by downing the Horse with the axe, and then going after the rider. I imagine the result between a warg-rider and dwarf would be much the same.


So what is the best method of stopping Warg-Riders? Keep your troops organized! Give them no weak points to attack, and hopefully force them into something costly like attacking your main line where you would have your spear men, and heaviest armoured troops in the front, and archers behind to weaken the enemy before they hit.

Also I might add, though Tolkien does not mention much in the way of tactics, we should not assume therefore that there were none. Battle tactics ALWAYS evolve. Where there is constant war such as in middle earth, if something works, you do it again, if it works again, you start to refine it until you have an effective tactic for that situation.

Glofin

[Felagund]

I have found Tolkien's mention of tactics in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, in the Unfinished Tales. He refers to two Numenorean spear formations (can't quite recall the names right now, too lazy to look them up...). So I guess we must assume tactics were used in Middle-Earth eventually.

[Ar-Pharazon]

Yes the Disaster of Gladden fields seems to be the most tactically told of the stories.

Not only from the Numenorian's side but also the Orc side. Numenor utilizes a spear and shield wall to protect them from the onslaught of Orcs, at first this works because the Numenor's are far better equipped. So the Orcs get more drastic, a group of them will fling themselves at a Numenorian knight and knock him down so he can be dragged out of the wall and killed, so for each knight killed the orcs may lose five of there own and slowly wear the Knights down.

There is also mention of the Eastern Bridge of Moria which is a narrow strip used to repel enemy forces by forcing them to cross one at a time and being subject to either a hail of arrows or an encircled bottleneck at the other end of the bridge. Seems very tactical.

How about the Rohirrims encirclement of the Isengarde Orcs, it doesnt seem like a random charge but a slow enclosure and wearing down of the Orc troops until they charge and slaughter them.

Oh and about the Warg charge, I would also utlilize the spearman tactic and neglect the archers because to me a Warg doesnt look like something that can be brought down at full speed unless it is hit in the head or vital areas, and how easy is that to hit. Behind the spearmen would be a group of either axers or mace users and they would try to mortally wound the beasts by breaking its leg(s) or back so they can be killed later. I mean this isnt an easy battle to win in open field, and if we go by the movie the main objective of the horse charge was to get the wargs far from the women and children so they can reach Helms Deep.

Ar~

[Glofin]

A movie warg or a book warg? The impression i got from the books was that a warg was just a really big and mean wolf.

Anyway, as far as tactics for stopping wargs go I have already posted in length my opinions. But as for tactics in middle earth, for anyone who knows a bit about history you realise that tactics develop where ever there is war-fare. No exceptions. What makes Middle Earth so wonderful, is that is very real. War-fare and tactics, (bad or good) go hand in hand... I imagine that after some of the first battle in middle earth, the elves against the orcs, the chief elven warriors would sit down together and say "You know when we had those archers behind the spear-men raining death down on the Glamhoth, then charged with our swordsmen, we slaughtered them... let's do that again."

As someone who has taken and studies swordsmanship, you realise very quick when you do something stupid you would get killed in a battle field. This automatically makes the good warriors make it through the battles (under good circumstances) and the less skilled are slain. This is a general rule, though in battle there are exceptions for rule. But better tactics, and better warriors sets the odds in their favour, and when they when they carry own their tactics or skills. There is absolutely no reason why the tactics in middle earth aren't as diverse (though sometimes very simple) as the ones in our own history. It is the nature of war that makes tactics evolve. Examine the nature warfare with medieval weapons and you will find the tactics there waiting to be found. The battle tactics that Tolkien gives us in his book, are only a glimsp, but then again tactics are not the main focus of the book, he is telling a story about a Ring not battle tactics.

Glofin