Fate of the two Blue Wizards?

[WarBringer]

I was reading the simarillion for at least the billionth time, and unless im missing something or its in a different book, i still cant find out what happened to 2 blue wizards who followed saruman...does anyone here find something i missed?

[Manwe Sulimo]

Nope, unless one of us has somehow managed to contact the Professor in the spirit world...

All there is is some of JRRT's speculation in Unfinished Tales, the essay on the Istari.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

No one knows for sure what happened to the Blue Wizards, only that they went and did not return. I'll relate a few theories that I've heard...

- Saruman, who went with them, killed them to further his own power and returned himself. However I don't think this probable, as his corruption had not begun yet by that stage as far as we know.

- They were simply killed, by hostile Easterlings or brigands or something, from whom Saruman only escaped. This sounds ok.

- They became corrupt and set up cults in the East, either with the intention of bringing down the West or of simply becoming powerful themselves.

- Saruman left them there to do their job, but they were later killed.

- They did their job but it didn't have much effect. Or perhaps it did. Maybe they were a calming influence on the Easterlings, the only one there to counter Sauron's alliance with them. One would have thought though that after Sauron's downfall they would have returned to the West with the Last Ship.

There are probably more. The fact is that we don't know, and can only really guess.

[Legolas]

Tolkien was unsure of what happened to them.

He offers thoughts in two different places...

The first is later, from Unfinished Tales, and the second from History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth

I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Ah, so that's where the cult theory and 'calming influence' missionary one came from... Well there's some good backing for the missionary one at any rate. It sounds very plausible in fact.

[the witch king]

i support the cults in the east my self if they didnt fall in to evil ways they would have returnd to the west right? and there wasnt any thing that i know that was powerful enuf to take on 2 wizards in the east

[WarBringer]

One possibility:If wizards take the forms of men, is it possibl that they formed small kingdoms, and possibly became ringwraiths?Its possible...

[Melkor89]

the 2 blue wizards are the remaining Istari. The others being Gandalf, Saruman & Radagast

[InklingElf]

Who are the two left? Do they have any significance to any of the stories compiled in the Silmarillion?

[WarBringer]

Who are the two left? Do they have any significance to any of the stories compiled in the Silmarillion?

What was meant by that InklingElf?

[InklingElf]

my apologies... What are their names? And do they partake in any stories of the SIlmarillion?
-Hope that clears it up

[WarBringer]

well, i recently lent the silmarillion and the later silmarillion parts one and two to a friend, and as such, i cannot look up their names at the moment. Tolkien mentions that two wizards folled Sarumon to the far west, to the coast,and did not return. I was hoping if anyone could find their true fate...

[Legolas]

Tolkien himself didn't tell us their true fate. Use your imagination. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Their 'names' are given two different places - Alatar and Pallando, and Morinehtar and Romestamo.

Alatar and Pallando is the account most people go with since they are the names Tolkien decided on when writing about the council Manwe held to choose the 5 Istari (and additionally because it was published first in Unfinished Tales, years before The History of Middle-earth series). Christopher Tolkien makes a note about Pallando's name that says that it was probably just a description rather than a name he was called by the other Maia.

You can find out all that was given to us about Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando at
http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_otherwizards.asp

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Maverick]

I have a theory on what could have happend to 1 of the 2 blue wizards.

Tolkien says that they could have been the starters of some cults that outlasted the fall of sauron. But I wondered if theu joined sauron like saruman did. I thought that 1 of them could be the Mouth of Sauron. Is there anything that could be used to try and prove this theory?

[Son of Númenor]

I thought that 1 of them could be the Mouth of Sauron. Is there anything that could be used to try and prove this theory?

Unfortunately no, but there is enough available to disprove the theory.

The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge (The Return of the King, "The Black Gate Opens", 871).

Although one (or both) of the wizards may well have served Sauron in some regard after the disappearance of the Blue Wizards into the East, it is pretty obvious based on the passage above that neither was the Mouth of Sauron.

[Bombadil]

Now, Tolkien was very religious so this most likely is not true, but I was thinking that perhaps these cults that were formed that outlasted Sauron could maybe be religions of our world today. The only reason I think that is the whole "outlasted the fall of Sauron" thing.

This also doesn't sound like Tolkien, in both his writing style and his personality, but perhaps he was insulting Eastern religion by having wizards go east and set up cults?

[Aiwendil]

Bombadil wrote:

This also doesn't sound like Tolkien, in both his writing style and his personality, but perhaps he was insulting Eastern religion by having wizards go east and set up cults?

So perhaps one was Confucius and the other Siddhartha? Now there's an interesting idea!

[Son of Númenor]

Most major eastern religions have traceable backgrounds that Tolkien, as a learned man, was probably aware of. Here are a few that I can think of:

-Buddhism: Started by Siddhartha Gautama, circa 600 B.C.E.
-Islam: Started by Mohammed, late sixth century C.E.
-Confucianism: Started, obviously, by Confucius, 500's B.C.E.
-Taoism: Credit for the start given to Lao-zhi, circa 580 B.C.E.
-Shinto: Exact origins unknown, but believed to have begun circa 500 B.C.E.
-Hinduism: Origins in the Aryan invasion of what is now India, circa 1500 B.C.E.

Since the Third and Fourth Ages, according to Tolkien, were far longer ago than the origins of any of these major eastern religions, and since there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that Tolkien would ever want to include fake origins of an entire real religion in his mythology, it can safely be assumed that your theory is groundless.

[Bombadil]

Since the Third and Fourth Ages, according to Tolkien, were far longer ago than the origins of any of these major eastern religions, and since there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that Tolkien would ever want to include fake origins of an entire real religion in his mythology, it can safely be assumed that your theory is groundless.

Exactly SOn of Numenor, I was just thinking of the idea of it perhaps symbolically representing those religions. (which as I mentioned earlier wasn't his writing style because such writing would be considered allegorical)

[drigel]

It seems to me that the "emissaries" idea is totally consistant with the Vala's strategy for dealing with Morgoth/Sauron problem. The sending forth of representatives out to meet and or deal with the various races, as opposed to greeting them en masse, and influencing them merely by the power of them as a host. The Istari had the twist of assuming coporal forms though, probably as a result decision not to directly intervene in ME affairs. Maybe this was concluded after the destruction of Beleriand\Numenor..?..?

But I always felt the "cult" theory was mabye his way of setting up the scene for his "New Shadow" project - where the cult angle gets played out..?..?

Im not sure this makes sense sorry!

[Gurthang]

I'm not sure that the 'cult' theory is very credible. Throughout his work, Tolkien never directly talks about religions other than pro- or anti-Valar. The Numenoreans, for example, are not discussed other than they set themselves up higher than the Valar.

The idea that the Istari started cults doesn't go with his writing style.

[Noxomanus]

Can we consider the original version or the one with the Ithryn Luin being called Morinehtar and Romestamo the definitive one?

[Findegil]

Why do you think we have to decied between the two? I think it is possible that they did work for the second age in the east and when Saruman arrived they meet him at Mithlond and the three went into the east were they took up their work and stay for a long time loyal to thier original task. But in the end before the 3 age found its final conflict in the west they failed as is told in the Unfinished Tales.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Noxomanus]

I'm personally under the impression Tolkien changed his whole view about them.He could easily do so,as none of the material had been published.

Also,I think they wouldn't go all the way from far to the east to Mithlond to pick up Curumo...considering they didn't fly planes. It seems far more likely Curumo went to them instead.

[Encaitare]

Tolkien gave the two Blue Wizards names in Unfinished Tales; they have been posted already. It is suggested in UT that they, like Radagast, strayed from their purpose of protecting Men and Middle-earth. (Radagast became too intrigued by the birds and beasts that he virtually spent all his time with them, and who knows what happened to the Blue Wizards in the end, other than that they ventured East?) Saruman was overcome by greed, and that left Gandalf as the only Istar still loyal to his cause.

[drigel]

re: cults
I would refer you to The New Shadow. Cults were very much on the authors minds towards the end. At the very least, it was on his mind when he was considering the story line for NS.

I was under the impression the BW traveled east to "persuade and inspire" tribes/nations of men to not listen to and fall under the sway of Sauron's influence. Without the counsel of the BW, Saurons human legions would have been much larger than it already was. IMO, i could see the BW falling under their own desires to control the minds of men, especially after dealing with them for thousands of years.

"Saruman Light", if you will

[Morsul the Dark]

Blue Wizards

Well if Radagast became obssesed with animals why not them? on of the Blue Wizards(blue being like water) could have become interested in fish, fishing,and all things water, while the other could have Become interested deel in the folk of the south, like Gandalf and the Shire. But unlike Gandalf he stayed there for many years

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Recently there was a program on BBC TV here in good old Blighty, called the Big read. On it viewers voted on their favourite book. Not surprisingly Lord of the Rings was the victor (Cheers). On it One of Tolkien's relations came to receive the award and said;

"I often asked him about Middle Earth. Mainly of the two blue wizards. He did have a good many stories about what happened to them."

So there must be some history to Alatar and Pallando, weather it was written down or not is a different matter. Perhaps Christopher did not find any or was not aware of it. Or perhaps he did not think it important enough. Who knows?

[drigel]

thats an interesting angle
Lately, i am kind of liking the angle thats referred to in HOME, where the author was toying with the idea of Sauron's rings going not only to the various races but to orcs and wizards as well. hmmmm an orc with a ring of power...... , a wizard wraith..... awsome possibilities there

[Voralphion]

Well if Radagast became obssesed with animals why not them? on of the Blue Wizards(blue being like water) could have become interested in fish, fishing,and all things water,

They are unlikely to have become enamored of things to do with water since despite wearing blue, they were sent by Orome.

[Legolas]

Here is all that Tolkien has written about them:

Middle-earth FAQ: The 'Other' Wizards

There are two vague references to the Blue Wizards - one in the section on the Third Age in the published Silmarillion and the other in The Lord of the Rings when Saruman speaks of the staffs of the Five Wizards.

The only writings Christopher has supplied us with (and what I presume to be the only writings period, whether published or withheld by him) that speak of the Blue Wizards are in The Istari chapter of Unfinished Tales and a smaller section in the History of Middle-earth, Volume XII.