Kalorme in the Third Age

[Meoshi]

After the bending of the world which removed Valinor from the circles of the world, what became of the Eastern continent 'diametrically opposite' to Valinor? Would it leave the world as well, or remain, but without the Gates of Morning?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The Eastern continent, I would guess, is Middle-Earth. In the process of the Removal of Valinor, two things apparently happened: the Undying Land was removed to some other dimension if you like, and the Earth was bent. Whereas before it was just a huge land, flat and straight from end to end, it was warped into the globular shape that we now know it as, so that there is no physical escape from it except outwards, into Menel.

If I can I might just borrow this thread to raise something I’ve always wondered about. Asia (East of Rhun, probably including Australia to the South somewhat), Europe and the Arctic (the ‘North-West’) and Africa (South of Harad) are all present in Middle Earth. What about the New World? Did it just rise out of the sea? It seems to be, actually, in a good position for it to be the Undying Lands; obviously it wasn’t though… interesting anyway.
Tolkien made his Arda close enough to the real Earth as to make it fit into the history, of course in a mythical sense, and development of the world. The Pacific Ocean, if you look on a map of the world, covers nearly half of the Earth’s circumfrence, making it close to the Ekkaia (Encircling Sea); the Atlantic, West of Middle Earth (Europe/Asia/Africa) is Beleguer. The seas fit too. The Americas stuff it all up a bit though.

[Meoshi]

You seem to have misunderstood what I said; I'm talking about a different continent altogether, east of ME and the Ekkaia. Here's what I know about it(copied from a previous post of mine):

Apparently, in the East, ME gives way to a sea, beyond which is a continent 'diametrically opposite' to Valinor, with a wall of mountains lower than Valinor's but still great. One mountain, Kalorme, was made into a 'fortress of the Sun' by the Valar(home of the Maia that drives the Sun?) Also, Kalorme was linked to Taniquetal by a bridge. The Sun would come through the Gates of Morning from the Void every morning, flying over these lands first, and land in Valinor in the West in the evening. The lands beyond the mountain barrier would probably be a desert, scorched by the Sun's frequent arrivals(I'm guessing on that particular point) and its shore is described by Mandos as a 'silent beach', so it was probably uninhabted.

So, Gwaihir, I suppose the answer to your question is there, although mine is still unanswered. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] The wall of mountains, which are called the Mountains of the Sun, are north-south, like Valinor's, and like the Rockies and Andes. The continent containing them(does it have a name?) could be the New World.

[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Meoshi ]

[Maerbenn]

Please see this thread: Did the Valar abandon Middle Earth - Third Age?

[Voralphion]

It said in the Akallabeth that when the Exiles sailed west after the sinking of Numenor and the removal of Valinor, they found new lands. I always considered these to be the Americas, (new world-new lands?).

As to what happened to the eastern continent, I think it was probably removed from the world as well as the doors of night when the world was made round.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yeah, ok that's interesting. You know I've never heard of that continent, in all my travels, or if I have assumed it was the Eastern side of Middle-Earth. The 'new lands' I assumed to be simply unexplored parts of ME to the East.

Firstly though, are you sure this wasn't just a discarded early idea? It didn't feature much in the Prof's writings -- mind you that's mainly because it wasn't at all important, I spose.

[Meoshi]

Look up 'Mountains of the Sun' or 'Kalorme' in Shaping of Middle Earth. The maps in SoME also make it clear that this was a seperate continent.

Whether the east-continent remained in the plan or not, the Gates of Morning did.

What made me think that it was removed as well as Valinor was the Rainbow Bridge running from Kalorme to Taniquetil. I mean, the Valar wouldn't leave a secret back way intact.

[ April 03, 2003: Message edited by: Meoshi ]

I always assumed Valinor was still physically on the Earth, but was in another dimension, or just hidden magically ie: beings could only come to Valinor if the Valar allowed it, and it was magically sealed against men. An analogy would be the western door of Moria, that has certain requirements to be fulfilled before it will open. In Valinors case, the requirements are the seeker must be an Elf, or otherwise have special permission, as in the case of Frodo and Gimli.

[The Saucepan Man]

Not sure why, but I had the idea that, when Valinor was seperated from the world, it remained on a flat plane but moved into another dimension, while the earth became rounded. In other words, for those who were entitled to enter Valinor by right or by permission, there was a passage of sea leading off at a tangent (is that the right word?) from the curvature of the world upon which ships bearing those who were able to enter Valinor could sail.

Mind you, now that I think about it, I have a vision of Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf and co lifting off the ocean on their way to Valinor at the end of LotR like John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John at the end of Grease, with Sam, Merry and Pippin waving to them like the students of Rydell High, all singing "We go together like Bob-she-doo-wop Ramalama Ding-Dong" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ...

... let's hope PJ doesn't see it the same way [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] .

And on a more serious note, what was it exactly that enabled the ships bound for Valinor to travel this route? Was it in the skill of the mariner or the quality of the vessel? And in either case, where did Legolas learn the necessary skills to enable him to build a suitable craft and/or navigate his way to Valinor? Or was it the Valar (Ulmo?) who were able to direct qualifying ships along the correct route and prevent others from going the same way?

[Son of Fire]

well, in my opinion, it must have been ulmo, i mean who else would have guided them?