Monkeys eat bananas, right? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elenglin · 03-29-2002, 10:49 AM

Were there monkeys/apes in ME?

In The Two Towers Ugluk calls one of the orcs a monkey or an ape (In finnish version it's 'Apina' which means both Monkey and Ape.) I'd like to know what the English version says..

One of the Barrow-Downs' Comic-contest-judges said (commenting one of the comics) that there were probably no bananas in ME, so I assume that there were no Monkeys either.

***Sharkû*** · 03-29-2002, 11:07 AM

At the battle of Helm's Deep, we have:

Quote:

Many were cast down in ruin, but many more replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South.

Two general possibilities: a) there are no monkeys in Arda or Middle-Earth, and that was merely a translation of an animal that is similar to it, but unknown in our real world, or even just a figure of speech by the translator who wrote it in English.

However, especially the above quote makes things quite obviously this way: there are apes, but of course not in the climate of Gondor, Rohan, or the Shire, but in the hot and dense jungles to the South, in Harad. The same would go for bananas.

zifnab · 03-29-2002, 11:47 AM

It appears that "Ape" and "Swine" were common insults with the Orcs.

'Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape!' he snarled fiercely. - Grishnákh to Uglúk.

Sharkey sounds right, if they said Apes then there mustbe some reference to them. Probably somewhere remote. An endangered species, perhaps. I also think that Apes could survive with a lack of bananas just fine. Maybe they had a diet of Strawberries, turnips and potatoes, and the occasional critter that got in its way.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

***Sharkû*** · 03-29-2002, 11:52 AM

And, if knowledge of apes so far north seems strange, consider that the Hobbits knew about Oliphaunts.

Actually, Orcs probably used far less pleasant things than _ape_ and _swine_ in their insults...

Quote:

But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

Sîdhrîs · 03-29-2002, 12:16 PM

As far as I know, monkeys don't exclusively eat bananas, but also leaves, other fruits, insects, bird's eggs... Nice menu, ain't it? So I think at this diet they could have existed in ME, maybe somewhere in the South?

VanimaEdhel · 03-29-2002, 12:47 PM

Monkeys eat a lot of things other than bananas...bananas aren't monkey's #1 food even, I believe. It's like the idea with mice: how they don't JUST eat cheese, they eat almost anything.

Monkeys could have existed, for many other animals we know existed then (even elephants!).

So, in conclusion, there could have been monkeys.

There! I edited it! You happy, zif? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: VanimaEdhel ]

Orodhromeus · 03-29-2002, 01:54 PM

Could they live in Ithilien? What was the climate of Itihlien anyway? Excuse me, but I'm not good in botanics and I don't remember much of the plant/tree species mentioned there. Could the Ithilien be a tropical/temperate jungle?

zifnab · 03-29-2002, 02:34 PM

In my understanding Elephants and Oliphants are seperate creatures. In the same line, but different. Oliphants were the larger of the two and used more for war then anything else.

Gandalf uses the expression, "Great Eliphants", in the the Hobbit.

True, Sharkey. But you can't deny me the simple pleasure of posting the "common insult". [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Mirkgirl · 03-29-2002, 04:56 PM

I think Tolkein just wanted to use an animal ofence there, but representing a whole new animal would have taken too much, so he just used one we know, meaning some close MEanimal.

***Sharkû*** · 03-29-2002, 05:40 PM

You're so ziffy [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, I have found some monkeys when browsing through some pages of LotR lately:

VanimaEdhel · 03-29-2002, 05:55 PM

Okay, excuse me zif, but still, you know what I mean...I'll edit the message if it'll make you happy! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-29-2002, 11:45 PM

Of course monkeys, apes, etc existed in Arda. Tolkien makes it very clear that Middle Earth is the north-east of Europe approximately 6,000 years ago. Arda is Earth, not some made-up planet.

Aralaithiel · 03-30-2002, 09:51 AM

Then why can't there be unicorns, pegasi, etc.? Sorry, I am on a unicorn bent right now.
I'm glad to know that there are some of us that know that bananas are not the primary diet of monkeys. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Very interesting thread! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Niere-Teleliniel · 03-30-2002, 07:30 PM

who said there werent unicorns and pegasi?

Birdland · 03-30-2002, 09:16 PM

This thread is starting to sound like an Irish Rover song!

Aralaithiel · 03-31-2002, 03:21 PM

Ya know, I was starting to think the same thing, Birdland! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

HerenIstarion · 08-07-2004, 01:28 PM

Up, as Fifteen Foot Rabbits are invading forests of Arda...

Noxomanus · 08-08-2004, 06:10 AM

Monkeys eating only bananas is probably the most ignorant thing I've ever read here. That means not that many posts here are ignorant though.

I know that me saying this is disliked but I think that still thinking monkeys only eat this type of fruit at your age displays a severe hiatus in your biological upbringing. Blame it on your parents,if you like.

Mithalwen · 08-08-2004, 12:25 PM

err it is possible they typed tongue in cheek ?

I think Tolkien describes Bilbo as screaming like a steam train in the hobbit....and there weren't any of those in ME..... but I think Tom Shippey deals with this in "Master of middle Earth".....

03-29-2002, 11:47 AM	#3
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 329	It appears that "Ape" and "Swine" were common insults with the Orcs. 'Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape!' he snarled fiercely. - Grishnákh to Uglúk. Sharkey sounds right, if they said Apes then there mustbe some reference to them. Probably somewhere remote. An endangered species, perhaps. I also think that Apes could survive with a lack of bananas just fine. Maybe they had a diet of Strawberries, turnips and potatoes, and the occasional critter that got in its way. [ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ] __________________ Facebook.

03-29-2002, 12:47 PM	#6
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	Monkeys eat a lot of things other than bananas...bananas aren't monkey's #1 food even, I believe. It's like the idea with mice: how they don't JUST eat cheese, they eat almost anything. Monkeys could have existed, for many other animals we know existed then (even elephants!). So, in conclusion, there could have been monkeys. There! I edited it! You happy, zif? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: VanimaEdhel ] __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-29-2002, 02:34 PM	#8
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 329	In my understanding Elephants and Oliphants are seperate creatures. In the same line, but different. Oliphants were the larger of the two and used more for war then anything else. Gandalf uses the expression, "Great Eliphants", in the the Hobbit. True, Sharkey. But you can't deny me the simple pleasure of posting the "common insult". [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Facebook.

03-29-2002, 04:56 PM	#9
Mirkgirl Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 84	I think Tolkein just wanted to use an animal ofence there, but representing a whole new animal would have taken too much, so he just used one we know, meaning some close MEanimal. __________________ "Hobbits! Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this."

03-29-2002, 05:55 PM	#11
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	Okay, excuse me zif, but still, you know what I mean...I'll edit the message if it'll make you happy! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-29-2002, 10:49 AM	#1
Elenglin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 24	Monkeys eat bananas, right? Were there monkeys/apes in ME? In The Two Towers Ugluk calls one of the orcs a monkey or an ape (In finnish version it's 'Apina' which means both Monkey and Ape.) I'd like to know what the English version says.. One of the Barrow-Downs' Comic-contest-judges said (commenting one of the comics) that there were probably no bananas in ME, so I assume that there were no Monkeys either. __________________ "Sinun pelloillasi on jättiläinen, suunnattoman suuri jättiläinen, ja hän on tulossa tähän suuntaan", koira sanoi. "Apua! Apua! Hän talloo jalkoihinsa sinun lampaasi. Hän on astunut Galathea-raukan päälle, ja se on lituskainen kuin kynnysmatto. Apua! Apua! Hän ruhjoo kaikki sinun pensasaitasi ja hän survoo kaiken viljasi. Sinun täytyy toimia rohkeasti ja nopeasti, isäntä, tai kohta sinulla ei ole mitään jäljellä! Apua!" Garm puhkesi ulvomaan.

03-29-2002, 12:16 PM	#5
Sîdhrîs Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 60	As far as I know, monkeys don't exclusively eat bananas, but also leaves, other fruits, insects, bird's eggs... Nice menu, ain't it? So I think at this diet they could have existed in ME, maybe somewhere in the South?

03-29-2002, 01:54 PM	#7
Orodhromeus Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greece Posts: 106	Could they live in Ithilien? What was the climate of Itihlien anyway? Excuse me, but I'm not good in botanics and I don't remember much of the plant/tree species mentioned there. Could the Ithilien be a tropical/temperate jungle?

03-29-2002, 05:40 PM	#10
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	You're so ziffy [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Anyway, I have found some monkeys when browsing through some pages of LotR lately:

03-29-2002, 11:45 PM	#12
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	Of course monkeys, apes, etc existed in Arda. Tolkien makes it very clear that Middle Earth is the north-east of Europe approximately 6,000 years ago. Arda is Earth, not some made-up planet. __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

03-30-2002, 09:51 AM	#13
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Then why can't there be unicorns, pegasi, etc.? Sorry, I am on a unicorn bent right now. I'm glad to know that there are some of us that know that bananas are not the primary diet of monkeys. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Very interesting thread! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-30-2002, 07:30 PM	#14
Niere-Teleliniel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a messy room on the third floor. Posts: 67	who said there werent unicorns and pegasi? __________________ He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.... ~Douglas Adams

03-30-2002, 09:16 PM	#15
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	This thread is starting to sound like an Irish Rover song!

03-31-2002, 03:21 PM	#16
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Ya know, I was starting to think the same thing, Birdland! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

08-07-2004, 01:28 PM	#17
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Up, as Fifteen Foot Rabbits are invading forests of Arda... __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

08-08-2004, 06:10 AM	#18
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	Monkeys eating only bananas is probably the most ignorant thing I've ever read here. That means not that many posts here are ignorant though. I know that me saying this is disliked but I think that still thinking monkeys only eat this type of fruit at your age displays a severe hiatus in your biological upbringing. Blame it on your parents,if you like. __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't Last edited by Noxomanus; 08-08-2004 at 01:38 PM.

08-08-2004, 12:25 PM	#19
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	err it is possible they typed tongue in cheek ? I think Tolkien describes Bilbo as screaming like a steam train in the hobbit....and there weren't any of those in ME..... but I think Tom Shippey deals with this in "Master of middle Earth"..... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace