Elven (Re-)Marriage - "Till death do us part"? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 04-02-2002, 04:25 AM

The interesting topic of elven marriage and remarriage came up on the chat a couple of days ago - how does immortality affect the validity of marriage? Here's what we discussed; perhaps someone can add insight to the questions we had.

zifnab: In Elf marriage, say that a strappin' young lad marries a beautiful vixen, he goes to war, and dies. Will he await her in the "Undying Lands", after the Halls of Mandos? Or does the relationship end at the moment of his death?
Estelyn: I see what you mean - is there a "till death do you part" for the immortal elves?!
Estelyn: Does anyone know of remarriage of any elves?
Estelyn: Wait a minute, Feanor's father remarries!
Estelyn: He has two sons from the second wife!
zifnab: Yes, Miriel dies.
Estelyn: So is marriage not immortal for the elves?
Voronwe: I think he was only allowed to remarry if Miriel remained in Mandos until the end of the world
Estelyn: Now I haven't read everything - do you know of any other remarriages by elves?
Voronwe: I don't think any other elves ever remarried
Estelyn: So is the marriage of elves immortal as they are?
Estelyn: no death = no parting
zifnab: So it seems.
Voronwe: Although one of them can 'die' and go to Mandos
Estelyn: ...and why the exception with Finwe??
zifnab: Maybe like V said, that Miriel was "fated" to stay in Mandos, or some other reason nulled out the marriage.

Amarinth · 04-02-2002, 04:51 AM

hey estelyn!

i actually started a thread here sometime ago entitled "is elven remarriage having two spouses" in reference to the situation of finwe, his first departed wife miriel and his second living wife indis the vanyar.

if i remember correctly, it was mithadan who enlightened me with a story from morgoth's ring, whereafter miriel's death finwe sought her release from the halls of mandos. miriel refused to be released, so the valar gave finwe permission to remarry (and IMHO, to complete the circle of fate involving all his sons and their offsprings). so he married indis. finwe died, and then feanor died, and feanor was decreed to stay with mandos because of his deeds and in accordance with the doom of mandos after the kinslaying at alqualonde. finwe elected to remain with his beloved eldest (hellooo! what about his wife huh?), so miriel was released from mandos to dwell in valinor. miriel and indis were even.

cool story!

---------------------------------------------
every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse

Estelyn Telcontar · 04-02-2002, 06:20 AM

Why thank you, Amarinth! I guess I missed that thread , but I found it now on page 3, this forum, and read it with interest. That does answer my question! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Shadowfax Clawson · 04-02-2002, 06:56 AM

Quite brilliant, as always! I had never really given much thought to Elven marriage and re-marriage; a very interesting topic. Wish I had been there to give my creative (if scanty) input on that discussion.... Very interesting topic indeed. My hats off to you for another brilliant discussion!

Aralaithiel · 04-02-2002, 05:56 PM

Shadowfax, your sig is [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]!

04-02-2002, 04:25 AM	#1
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Elven (Re-)Marriage - "Till death do us part"? The interesting topic of elven marriage and remarriage came up on the chat a couple of days ago - how does immortality affect the validity of marriage? Here's what we discussed; perhaps someone can add insight to the questions we had. zifnab: In Elf marriage, say that a strappin' young lad marries a beautiful vixen, he goes to war, and dies. Will he await her in the "Undying Lands", after the Halls of Mandos? Or does the relationship end at the moment of his death? Estelyn: I see what you mean - is there a "till death do you part" for the immortal elves?! Estelyn: Does anyone know of remarriage of any elves? Estelyn: Wait a minute, Feanor's father remarries! Estelyn: He has two sons from the second wife! zifnab: Yes, Miriel dies. Estelyn: So is marriage not immortal for the elves? Voronwe: I think he was only allowed to remarry if Miriel remained in Mandos until the end of the world Estelyn: Now I haven't read everything - do you know of any other remarriages by elves? Voronwe: I don't think any other elves ever remarried Estelyn: So is the marriage of elves immortal as they are? Estelyn: no death = no parting zifnab: So it seems. Voronwe: Although one of them can 'die' and go to Mandos Estelyn: ...and why the exception with Finwe?? zifnab: Maybe like V said, that Miriel was "fated" to stay in Mandos, or some other reason nulled out the marriage. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

04-02-2002, 04:51 AM	#2
Amarinth Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: realm of agonized volcanoes Posts: 113	hey estelyn! i actually started a thread here sometime ago entitled "is elven remarriage having two spouses" in reference to the situation of finwe, his first departed wife miriel and his second living wife indis the vanyar. if i remember correctly, it was mithadan who enlightened me with a story from morgoth's ring, whereafter miriel's death finwe sought her release from the halls of mandos. miriel refused to be released, so the valar gave finwe permission to remarry (and IMHO, to complete the circle of fate involving all his sons and their offsprings). so he married indis. finwe died, and then feanor died, and feanor was decreed to stay with mandos because of his deeds and in accordance with the doom of mandos after the kinslaying at alqualonde. finwe elected to remain with his beloved eldest (hellooo! what about his wife huh?), so miriel was released from mandos to dwell in valinor. miriel and indis were even. cool story! --------------------------------------------- every man's life is a path to the truth -- hesse __________________ pity this busy monster,manunkind, not / -progress is a comfortable disease;/ your victim (death and life safely beyond) / plays with the bigness of his littleness ---ee cummings

04-02-2002, 06:20 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Why thank you, Amarinth! I guess I missed that thread , but I found it now on page 3, this forum, and read it with interest. That does answer my question! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

04-02-2002, 06:56 AM	#4
Shadowfax Clawson Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 20	Quite brilliant, as always! I had never really given much thought to Elven marriage and re-marriage; a very interesting topic. Wish I had been there to give my creative (if scanty) input on that discussion.... Very interesting topic indeed. My hats off to you for another brilliant discussion! __________________ "In buying a horse or taking a wife, shut your eyes tight and commend yourself to God." -Tuscan proverb

04-02-2002, 05:56 PM	#5
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Shadowfax, your sig is [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]! __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"