The Mystery of Light

[Lalwendë]

Yesterday I watched a very interesting documentary about the properties of light and the search to define it, from being something divine to scientific understanding. The programme showed how the metaphysical and scientific properties of light are concepts which throughout history the church has tried to lay claim to, even to the point of imprisoning as a heretic one man who discovered what caused rainbows.

Descartes, sponsored by the Catholic Church, tried to show that the properties of light were mechanical, while Newton, a Protestant, was determined to prove him wrong. By way of various experiments, including staring at the sun for hours and thrusting a stick between his eyeball and skull, Newton eventually discovered that white light is composed of the seven colours of the rainbow. Amongst Newton’s critics were the Jesuits.

And Light is clearly of deep significance across many if not all religions. The old beliefs utilised the mysteries of light, as shown in the beam of light which enters the great passage grave at Newgrange on the shortest day. Light is particularly theologically significant to Christians and Moslems, and the idea of light has entered our collective consciousness as a universal symbol of the ‘good’ and the ‘wise’.

Here endeth my lesson. Of course, this has got me thinking about the nature of Light in Tolkien’s work. I posted on the CbC thread about Aragorn’s Light and what this might signify, but there are many other significant uses of Light within Tolkien’s work, including the Phial of Galadriel, the Two Trees (and interestingly, Ungoliant’s lust for that light) and the Silmarils. Why did Tolkien place so much significance on light? It cannot just be down to his Catholicism, as it is clearly a concept significant to all. I cannot in any way consider all these aspects here, so it might be a good topic for discussion, but I will start with the first thought which struck me.

In the light (sorry) of what was said about Newton on the documentary mentioned above, I immediately thought of Saruman and that rather enigmatic passage during The Council of Elrond where Saruman and Gandalf have their philosophical confrontation.

…For I am Saruman, the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"

'I looked then and saw that his robes, which had seemed white, were not so, but were woven of all colours, and if he moved they shimmered and changed hue so that the eye was bewildered.

'"I liked white better," I said.

'"White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."

'"In which case it is no longer white," said I. "And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."

In view of what I have just learned about Newton, I am now reading this with great interest. Tolkien is at the very least using those experiments as a metaphor here, perhaps one that is lost on most people. It is as though Saruman’s Light is being viewed by Gandalf through a prism.

But what has slightly worried me is that on the surface level it appears that Gandalf is saying that it is wrong to attempt such experiments as those which Newton carried out, and I’m not sure I entirely like that, as I do not necessarily view scientific knowledge as an obstacle to belief or faith.

Saruman (Newton) says that all colours are contained within the white Light, and that this very Light can be broken. Gandalf’s reply is that he is wrong, both morally, in attempting such an experiment, and scientifically, in that how can white be white if it is composed of other colours. What troubles me here is whether Tolkien himself is saying such a thing is wrong or if he is saying that it is wrong in the context of Middle Earth and the Divinity of Light there.

So, there’s a starter for ten on the significance of Light. Hopefully other ‘Downers are as interested in solving this mystery of Light as I am! Do you think I have interpreted this enigmatic passage about Saruman correctly or do you have another view? What other interesting references to Light are there? And finally, what is this thing about Light?



A few threads which I found to be relevant to this issue:

The Light in Frodo’s Face
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ight+spiritual

The Phial of Galadriel
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...light+symbolic

CbC – Book 3, Chapter 2
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...089#post363089

The link to a feature about the documentary I saw:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documen...es/light.shtml

Information about Newton:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/histori...on_isaac.shtml

[Estelyn Telcontar]

An excellent topic, Lalwendë! That reference to broken light of many colours has bothered me as well, since I love prisms and rainbows and think of the many colours contained in light as a positive thing. I'll be thinking about this in hopes of being able to contribute something worthwhile to the discussion!

[Guinevere]

Interesting ideas!
I have no explanation to contribute, only that I remember that in his poem "Mythopoeia" Tolkien is also using the "broken light" as a metapher, this time of Man's imagination, and in a positive sense:

man, subcreator, the refracted light
through whom is splintered from a single white
to many hues, and endlessly combined
in living shapes that move from mind to mind.

[Rimbaud]

Lal - I think I read this scene in a different fashion to you. For me, the conversation about colours is a superficial symbolism, the whole of the import hinging actually on the aphorism "and he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom".

This is not so much about white being 'good' and other colours being 'lesser', although that is the surface meaning - and little do you need telling why it would be read so. Neither do I think this is a comment on the appliance of science, which through the very deconstruction of perceived ideas, 'breaks things to see how they work'. Rather, I think this is about changing what is pure to suit your own ends, and thusly making that which was pure impure in turn.

That is to say: Saruman believes that the constituent parts of colour, of light itself, were greater than the whole. However, Gandalf argues that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts in creation.

[Aiwendil]

I think that Rimbaud is correct; the discussion of light here is entirely metaphoric. However, the analogy with science is not wholly out of place. Science itself is not evil. But Gandalf tells us exactly how Saruman left the path of wisdom: he broke something to find out what it was. Gandalf's injunction can hardly be applied to Newton, whose experiment was quite innocent. But to actually break something, to destroy it, in order to learn about it - to trade the thing itself for knowledge of the thing - that is folly. The pursuit of knowledge is not at fault, but the pursuit of knowledge at the expense of the world is.

[Lalwendë]

There's plenty of food for thought already here, excellent!

Now, if the use of the breaking of light into many colours is indeed metaphorical, then why did Tolkien choose this metaphor? Did he himself disagree with what Newton did? Did he see it as wrong in some way? I'm asking these questions from the angle that Tolkien was a Catholic, and clearly Light as a concept would have been important to him. Throughout his work I keep coming across Light as a concept of Divinity or purity.

What is troubling me is that according to Newton, white light is not pure, it is the sum of the coloured light. And in effect, Newton did break the light to discover its properties. Yet Tolkien uses white Light as a symbol of purity and says that Light should not be broken. And the fact that he also used this metaphor in Mythopoeia would suggest it is a scientific theory he was well aware of.

[drigel]

i see the interesting angle as:

Saurman starts (and was sent forth originally) as white. He "constructs" the prism that breaks his white to many colors. Its still starts white, but to the physical world it has been broken up in to different colors. I wonder if there is a metaphysical symbol here as well.

[davem]

I think the best starting point is Flieger's Splintered Light. the Light begins as a single pure source of life & holiness - the Secret Fire. It appears first in Arda in the Lamps which Melkor breaks. Its next appearance is in the Trees, but there it is not the pure, single, unwavering light of the Lamps, it is now twofold, Gold & Silver & more imporatantly it fluctuates. When the Trees are killed, it survives in threefold form, in the Silmarils, & in the Sun & Moon. So, as Flieger points out, we have an increasing fragmentation, a splintering, of the Light.

Language comes into the equation also - the High Elves, the Calaquendi (lit Cal = Light & Quendi = speakers) speak the langauge of Light, while the Moriquendi speak the language of the Darkness. On the Noldor's return to Middle earth Thingol forbids the use of Quenya & demands that the exiles speak Sindarin. So, the splintering & subsequent lessening of the Light brings about a kind of linguistic devolution. There's a movement from the pure Light towards the darkness due to this fragmentation, & an equal linguistic movement from Quenya to the Black Speech, a language in which all 'light' & beauty is absent.

I think the Breaking of the White Light is to be understood in theological rather than scientific terms.

My own feeling is that the argument between Gandalf & Saruman is the argument between theology & science. Saruman is a 'scientist' & thinks of light as a physical phenomenon, a thing which can be broken up into its constituent elements, while Gandalf is a 'theologian' & thinks of Light not as photons but as the physical manifestation of the Secret Fire, the Holy Spirit of Eru. In other words Gandalf has retained his 'spiritual vision' - he remembers the Music - while Saruman has become lost in a materialistic worldview. In short, there is light & there is Light. Saruman's breaking of the white light is wrong in Gandalf's eyes because Saruman is following the path of Melkor, & exacerbating the shattering of Arda which Melkor began.

Everything is becoming 'dark'. Its interesting that Gandalf claims to be a servant of the Secret Fire, while Saruman is clearly attempting to become its master. He is attempting to manipulate it to serve his own ends. Gandalf is attempting to get Saruman to understand his 'sin', because Saruman (he hopes, I suppose) doesn't actually understand what he is really doing. The Light is Holy in Middle earth, because it is the Light of God. IF we could run the story of Middle earth backwards we'd see a movement towards greater & greater Light, culminating ultimately in Eru Himself. What we actually see is a movement away from the Light, through increasing fragmentation, towards darkness - not simply an absence of Light, but its opposite, its negation, symbolised in creatures like the Nazgul - & set forth in the confrontation between them, nine fragments of 'nothingness' & the Light symbolised by Glorfindel who drives them back with a combination of the Light of Aman in his face & the Light's physical manifestation - fire. There is no symbolic difference between mundane fire & the Secret Fire in this sense - & that's why the Nazgul fear fire - in Middle earth the most mundane things can be 'holy' or unholy - & this is what Saruman has either forgotten or is denying.

[Boromir88]

I like your comparison to the Scientist and Theologian, davem.

I think if we look more at the Scientist perspective of Saruman. What do scientists do? They try to analyze, study, interpret, certain data, and come up with a conlcusion. Come up with an "answer." Light is generally a symbol of "good," opposed to darkness. Looking at the scientifical side, Saruman breaks this "white light," trying to come up with an "answer," trying to find it's secrets, and being Saruman probably trying to find a way to dominate over the "white."

I also, view Saruman's "many colors" as a symbol that he has broken away from the "light." He isn't "white" anymore, he's broken away from the "white/light," and what happens when you do that, the variation of colors. Saruman is no longer "white," anymore, he broke away from it, and now is left with a mass of different colors, they aren't combined anymore to create "white," they are all seperate. I view it as symbolizing that Saruman is no longer pure, he is what "white/purity" is shattered, a bunch of colors.

Edit: Excellent thread topic Lalwende.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Davem

I was going to give you rep for that post because it is so beautifully expressed and so very true but unfortunately I couldn't.

Lalwendë - I do think this is how the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman should be read and understood. Tolkien was speaking in a theological or even an historical sense rather than a strictly scientific or physical one. The breaking of the White Light refers to the whole sequence of events beginning with the creation and manifestation of the Secret Fire and its gradual marring and splintering down to the Third Age when the only physical fragment left to Arda was that which lay within the Phial of Galadriel. Saruman is just one of a long line of destroyers who would seek to hide the Light--in this case, manifested by his white robes-- masking it with other, less important things for his own selfish reasons.

I truly don't believe that JRRT was questioning scientific exploration in any real sense. There is too much evidence in the Legendarium that says otherwise. The Elves especially cherished the physical world of Arda and many of them spent long years trying to understand and even capture the mysteries that underlay that physical world. They didn't give the name "science" to their activities. Instead, they called these woodlore or art or craftsmenship, which others often interpreted as "magic". This strange and wondrous knowledge led the Noldor to craft objects like the Palantari that were enormously beneficial to those seeking to uphold the good. Today, we would probably call this branch of knowledge "science".

What Tolkien objected to was not science but its abuse, especially the prostration of technology for purposes of war. With the single exception of the ruling ring, none of the objects created by Elves was inherently evil from the beginning. (In many other fantasy worlds, this is not true.) The problem came only with the use to which these objects were put. And Davem (and Flieger) have identified what goes to the core of this dilemma, at least according to Tolkien. Without an understanding of our real place in the world we will fall into error and everything we touch--science, human feelings, even natural desires to build a community or a family--will be tainted. We are servants like Gandalf. If we seek mastery like Saruman desiring a "higher" place than that due to us, we will twist science and erect an Isengard.

Thus, the Silmarils become a curse to those who argue over them and seek mastery of the world instead of the beauteous reflection of creation that they are intended to be. Yet, even here, the reader is left with hope. In the end we remember not the Silmarillion with its long recital of tragic events but the eucatastrophe of the Third Age: the fact that a tiny splinter of the Silmarils nestled within the Phial of Galadriel becomes a beacon to two Hobbits whose initial motivation was to serve. And it is this tiny spark that provides the glimmer of light in Frodo's eyes that Sam so clearly recognizes.

The scene between Gandalf and Saruman is just one skirmish in a battle that will go on till the end of Arda. As Tolkien saw it, it was a long defeat marred by tiny, temporary triumphs. At the end of time, however, the White Light that Eru created would finally be restored:

This Legendarium ends with a vision of the end of the world, its breaking and remaking, and the recovery of the Silmarilli and the "light before the Sun"-- after a final battle..... Letter 131

[Lalwendë]

What I am a little afraid of is that Tolkien might have isolated Light as a metaphor because he disapproved of Newton’s work. This bothers me as I see theoretical science and metaphysics as very close, and often interlinked, areas of thought. The misapplication of theoretical science leads to misapplication of technology, and misapplication of metaphysics leads to dogma. In my opinion… What Child says is very much what I think, that science (or rather, technology, the practical application of science) cannot be allowed to stand alone:

Without an understanding of our real place in the world we will fall into error and everything we touch--science, human feelings, even natural desires to build a community or a family--will be tainted.

What was Saruman doing that he somehow managed to break the light? Was this something to do with the misapplication of the Palantir? And what might he have hoped to have achieved by breaking light? One theory of quantum physics is that light and time are related; if we look at the stars, we are looking at the past, hence, if we could apply the uses of light in relation to time, we may be able to see the past. Was Saruman experimenting with Light in order to see into the past and maybe find the Ring? Or am I, as I suspect, trying to read into his motives too much? I like to think that there are many tales waiting to be told of Saruman.

Onto the theological uses of Light by Tolkien in his work... Davem has expressed this splendidly. It had occurred to me that Light was used by Tolkien to express Divinity in his world (an idea originating a long time ago when I was thinking of the Silmarils) and I'm pleased to see agreement on this. It is not surprising he used this powerful metaphor, given his Christianity, and the fact that Light is a common symbol of ‘good’. I can see that, looked at in this way, Saruman, rather than breaking the Light for scientific purposes, is instead breaking it for diabolical purposes. One thought is that maybe in Saruman breaking the Light, he was being shown to be delving too deeply into the nature of Divinity, and this could be a lesson that faith is easily broken once the person breaks it up to see how - and, more importantly - why it works. The similarity of this metaphor to the Newton experiment still bothers me, though I might have to accept that Tolkien was not intending to criticise Newton’s actions!

I’m sorely tempted now to consider the darkness which opposes the Light, but I shall stop awhile before the men in white coats come for me.

[Lhunardawen]

What an enlightening discussion!

As I was reading this thread, I remembered the few things I have learned from my Physics class these past few weeks. We have been discussing electomagnetic waves (of which the visible light is one), and I was wondering how we got to this lesson when we were previously studying magnetism, and before it, electricity. It took me a long time to realize that the word electromagnetic has its roots from electricity and magnetism! Yes, I am that stupid.

Anyways, in this discussion insights related to LotR sprung up from the seemingly very irrelevant nature of light. I am now wondering if the things I mentioned above could be interpreted in the same way. Electricity and magnetism are two separate and very different entities, yet somehow together they give way to light(for one). Does this go to say that even things we never expect to give way to good does so in the end, the way Gollum did? Or am I just overanalyzing things?

[drigel]

Saruman's staff and quantum mechanics.. hmmmm

[Boromir88]

I have been thinking, and have come up with this theory. One may easily disagree with it but here's what I've thought about.

What was Saruman doing that he somehow managed to break the light?

We can all say that LOTR is a classic battle of good vs. evil, light vs. dark. The light has been identified as Gandalf, Galadriel, Celeborn, Theoden....and so one. But who is the dark? Well, I would say Sauron, he is the one everyone is trying to get rid of forever, and ever. I don't think Saruman is dark, and therefor is portrayed as a "Man of many colors," and here's an explanation.

Saruman is evil, plain and simple. As already stated, Light broken up you get a range of different colors. And Saruman breaks this white in order to try to overpower white, and seek dominion over it. But, he isn't doing this just to light either, he's also trying to do it to dark. Therefor, Saruman is alone. He can't be light, or dark, because he's trying for "World Domination" over both light and dark. Saruman has been called a traitor by the light, but he is also despised by the Dark (Sauron)

Did they come from Saruman, perhaps? Who does he think he is, setting up on his own with his filthy white badges? They might agree with me, with Grishnakh their trusted messenger, and I grishnakh say this: Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.

If we think of Dark as "black." What is the color black? A combination of all the colors, if you combined all the colors you will get black. I think Saruman shown in this range of colors symbolizes that he is in this War on his own self, neither as light nor dark. So what other way is there to represent a man who is neither light nor dark, other then showing him as a man of many colors? Since, light broken up becomes a range of colors, and dark (black) broken up is a range of colors. If he's trying to seek dominion over light and dark, he can't be either, he's got to be shown on his own, and that is by showing him with many colors. If the colors were to combine they'd be light or dark, but since he's seeking dominion over both, they are seperated, portraying him as a "Man of many colors."

I hope I didn't lose anyone with this .

Edit: Lal, I intended to answer the question, but I sort of forgot, so now here it is. Again this is only my taking of it, it's not the fact that Saruman did something to break the light, or dark, it's just more on the symbolic note that Saruman is neither. He is trying to dominate over both light and dark, so he is portrayed as what Light and Dark is seperated, a mass of many colors.

[Lalwendë]

No! It's not lost me! This is a good idea - but the only problem I have is that I see black as an absence of light, a void. This is borne out in physics, that Dark Matter, which we cannot yet discern the true nature of, appears to be nothingness, and yet it holds the universe together. White and colour go together - white is merely the sum of the colours - but black is the absence of light. In Middle Earth terms this also works, as you could argue that Melkor lacked Light, that he was the result of what what would happen without Light.

He is trying to dominate over both light and dark, so he is portrayed as what Light and Dark is seperated, a mass of many colors.

This is a really interesting thought. Is Saruman trying to place himself an another scale than the traditional Light/Dark good/evil? Is he trying to put himself outside morality? If so, then it could be said that he is 'playing at being God'.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

What I am a little afraid of is that Tolkien might have isolated Light as a metaphor because he disapproved of Newton’s work. .... What was Saruman doing that he somehow managed to break the light?

I don't think that was Gandalf's emphasis.

White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."

'"In which case it is no longer white," said I.

I think what Gandalf is referring to as broken is the whiteness, not the light.

Saruman's color was white, and he was the head of his order. He was the top of the istari. Once he began dabbling, and wore "no longer White", or in his eyes "more than white", then he was no longer Saruman The White-- head of the order. His Whiteness was broken, like the overwriiten page, the dyed cloth, the white light that had been scattered. In Gandalf's eyes, Saruman's destruction of his own Whiteness- his own place in the order-- was foolish. And time and events prove it so.

(Speculative aside: perhaps that is why he went willingly into Moria despite Aragorn's dire warnings-- he knew or guessed that he was next in line?)

Not long thereafter, Gandalf is sent back as Gandalf The White-- Saruman's successor. Gandalf The White values what an Istar is supposed to value, and is not looking for world domination. He accomplishes his mission, and sails west. Saruman Of Many Colors is killed and blows away on the wind.

Was Saruman experimenting with Light in order to see into the past and maybe find the Ring? Or am I, as I suspect, trying to read into his motives too much?

Yes, I think so...

One thought is that maybe in Saruman breaking the Light, he was being shown to be delving too deeply into the nature of Divinity

I think he is turning away from divinity. He knew that he was sent to fight Sauron, and instead he's plotting to become the Next Sauron. Not his destiny, not his job description, not his marching orders... not not not! This is what Gandalf is protesting most deeply of all-- that Saruman has left the path of wisdom, and his shimmery clothes are just the superficial sign of it. The breaking, in contrast, goes right through the heart of everything that Saruman was designed and called to be-- everything that he turns away from and rejects.

Gandalf says "I am Saruman-- or rather Saruman as he should have been." Hence-- Gandalf The White.

I shall stop awhile before the men in white coats come for me.

Just don't dye the white coat into many colors in defiance of Eru and the Valar...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Helen

I think what Gandalf is referring to as broken is the whiteness, not the light.

In one of the early drafts Tolkien did state that after hie 'resurrection' Gandal would 'become a White Wizard', which sees to imply that colour was not simply an indicator of the wizard's position in the hierarchy, but that it referred to a particular 'kind' of wizard. So Gandalf was originally a 'grey' wizard & through death he metamorphosed into a 'white' wizard. this would seem to imply that colour was significant in Tolkien's cosmology - not simply implying greater or lesser 'purity' but relating more to the wizard's nature.

This makes me wonder to what extent Light & colour are to be taken as being related things - was the 'Secret Fire' white fire. I don't know if I'm contradicting my earlier statements here, so you'll just have to bear with me. Would it have carried the same implications of hubris if Saruman had said 'The blue light may be broken'? Is the 'sin' the breaking of Whiteness or the breaking of the Light? The Light is Holy, but is White anything more than a symbol of 'purity' in this case? Are they the same thing?

Is Saruman 'only' trying to break 'Whiteness' into its constituent elements, without understanding that the result would involve breaking the Light as well? Or did he fully understand what he was doing? Was Gandalf trying to get him to understand that Whiteness & Light are the same thing?

Is White Light purer than Blue Light? We could think of Eru as the pure Light, splintered into all colours -specifically into the colours of the Five Wizards in this case, so that Saruman's 'White' Light is no 'purer' or more 'holy' than Gandalf's Grey or Radaghast's Brown. In breaking the 'White' Light was Saruman breaking himself, or fragmenting the Light of Eru within himself?

Well, I've tied myself in knots here, & its hurts! so I'm now going to go away & lie down till I feel better.

[mark12_30]

Would it have carried the same implications of hubris if Saruman had said 'The blue light may be broken'? Is the 'sin' the breaking of Whiteness or the breaking of the Light?

Hubris to me is that he is stating that the world, rather than his stewardship, is now his playground-- I can dye, I can over-write, I can break light.

Recall the previous lines:

'"I liked white better," I said.

'"White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken."

A blue page, or a blue undyed cloth, is harder to imagine.

[Lalwendë]

We could think of Eru as the pure Light, splintered into all colours -specifically into the colours of the Five Wizards in this case, so that Saruman's 'White' Light is no 'purer' or more 'holy' than Gandalf's Grey or Radaghast's Brown. In breaking the 'White' Light was Saruman breaking himself, or fragmenting the Light of Eru within himself?

Ah, did Eru indeed break the Light of himself to create the Istari? Is this why they are of many colours? And in attempting this feat himself, and then making himself Saruman the many-coloured, could Saruman have been trying to combine all the colours of the other wizards into his own being?

Possibly Eru was White himself - the White Light, and Saruman was 'blessed' with this Divinity but chose to break it, as Eru did before him. And he failed because he was indeed playing about with something he should not have attempted.

Something might be implied by the staff, too. Is it a Prism which breaks light?

I now need my straightjacket, but I'm enjoying the madness that's taking me there!

[Lalwendë]

Right, I've got to thinking about Light again as I've been watching another physics documentary (though perhaps I ought to keep well away from them) so I have a few more musings to add to this.

This one traced the development of telescopes through Galileo and ending up with Darwin's theories and then the Hubble telescope. When we look at stars we are looking at the past, but we cannot see the oldest ones without a powerful telescope. One of the properties of the Palantiri is that they enable the viewer to see the past. As Gandalf says:

Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would--to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!" He sighed and fell silent.

So the Palantiri must possess a quality akin to a telescope in that not only can the viewer see things far away in the present time but can see things in past times. Gandalf also says the following:

But alone it could do nothing but see small images of things far off and days remote. Very useful, no doubt, that was to Saruman

This means that he understands why Saruman would want to use the Palantir; he has the same desire himself though he can master it. I note that he also says 'small images', and the smaller telescopes do only provide small images.

Tolkien seems to have made use of some knowledge of how the devices work in creating the Palantiri, but I'm beginning to wonder again if there is some link with Light itself. We do not know what Saruman hoped to see of the past in the palantir, but I'd hazard a guess that it is something to do with the Ring. My winder imaginings make me think he was also using it to try and gain more knowledge of Light. And that's not totally unfounded, as he may have been trying to see Feanor at work himself and gain some insight - possibly this contributed to how he learned to make his own Ring?

Gandalf it seems also yearns to see what Feanor was doing, but not only that, to see once more the Two Trees. But what is Gandalf hoping to learn, if anything, from this?

Faramir says of the Gondorian kings:

Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry; in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars.

It seems that star-gazing, among other scientific endeavours, was popular with the old kings, with Men. And Men did build many high towers, both in Numenor and in Middle-earth, possibly in an attempt to get closer to the stars or to see further into the West as was the case in Numenor. Faramir's statement could mean that these Men were working on Astrology, but this can be carried out simply by references to an Ephemeris, so it is more likely to have been Astronomy that they were involved in.

This links back to davem's recent thread Galadhremmin Ennorath where he asks about the significance of starlight for Elves. It seems it also has deep significance for Men and possibly also for the Istari. With those Elves in Middle-earth this has a poetic and ancestral significance as they were born under the starlight and so must revere it greatly, but they may also have looked to the stars as a way of looking back in time. It is possible that Men copied them, maybe learned from the use of the Palantiri when they were in Numenor; but that Men seem to link the stars with unfathomable questions may suggest they think they have some answers for them.

So anyway, I have no real conclusion to my ramblings beyond it being apparent to me that starlight has a deep significance to many in Middle-earth, possibly as they see it holds links to the past and possibly to time. And that the Palantiri made some use of both light and Light to see not only into the distance but into time. Maybe beings on Middle-earth harbour desires to be Timelords (who wouldn't? You get sonic screwdrivers to play with ) and maybe it is not only Saruman who desired to learn more about the true nature of Light?

[drigel]

....the Palantiri made some use of both light and Light to see not only into the distance but into time.

I am digging on the palantir angle, Lal!
If the palantiri were indeed crafted by Feanor, then it surely would have been during the Years of the Trees. Perhaps an ion or two of the Trees were "captured in a bottle" by Feanor, to be harnessed by the strong willed.

So the Palantiri must possess a quality akin to a telescope in that not only can the viewer see things far away in the present time but can see things in past times.

Sounds akin to gravitational lensing. oops sorry to throw another force of nature in the mix!

[Lalwendë]

Gravitational lensing? Whoa, that sounds interesting - or is it something that will make me have a moment of 'science madness' again? I love learning about physics; the concepts make me feel like a very small thing in the universe, humbled. And some of the theories can be almost like theology - if you get my meaning!

The Two Trees are obviously divine in some way within Arda and must produce not only light but Light (and I do wonder if the two are not the same thing?) - to look into a Palantir and actually see the Two Trees would be an incredible thing, and Gandlaf clearly believes that with enough effort to wrest control from Sauron it would be possible. One Palantir was kept by the Elves on the shores of Middle-earth - was this to look to Valinor?

[drigel]

Im also a closet space physicist
I do find it interesting that all those beautifull gravitational lensing pictures are circular in nature, as is a palantir. I wonder if one looked back that far in time - to the original crafting of the palantiri, what one would see. Would one see Feanor bent over a forge, like a glass blower rolling glass, or would one see him with hammer and chisel in hand, skillfully coaxing facets off the motherstone like a gem cutter..?

One Palantir was kept by the Elves on the shores of Middle-earth - was this to look to Valinor?

The stone I think looked towards Valinor, but mabye only a glimpse of Tol Eressëa..?..

Appendix A: The only Stone left in the North was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid that looks towards the Gulf of Lune. That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never knew it, it remained there, until Cirdan put it aboard Elrond's ship when he left (I, 74, 154). But we are told that it was unlike the others and not in accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so that he could look back with "straight sight" and see Eressea in the vanished West; but the bent seas below covered Numenor for ever'.

lens