Yavanna's "thoughts"

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I have a question for those who have access to HoME. Tolkien breifly discusses the origin of the ents in the Silmarillion in Quenta Silmarillion ch. 2, but he also speaks of similar guardians for animals.

And Manwe said, "O Kementari, Eru hath spoken saying:'Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the Kelvar and the Olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared..."

Since by kelvar she's referring to animals, I'd assume that there are guardians for animals that correspond to ents for plants. Does Tolkien amend this or elaborate at all about these guardians, where the spirits come from, or what happens to the ents/kelvar-guardians when they die? There seems to be provision made for the Dwarves of Aule, I've always wondered if there was something similar for the ents...

*tentative* the only vaguely related concept I can find that might correlate with ents is the Beornings?

Thanks much
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Sophia

[Inderjit Sanghera]

The Beornings were men.

[Dain]

Yes, men, but men who could turn into bears. What gave Beorn his special power, and do we know of any other man who had a similar power?

Interesting question about animal guardians, Sophia, but apart from very smart animals like Huan, I don't know quite where to look...

[Lalaith]

I'd never thought of that either, Sophia. What plans does Iluvatar have for Ents, I wonder? Are they like elves, immortal except when they meet death in war, or do they just have immensely long but mortal lives?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yes, men, but men who could turn into bears. What gave Beorn his special power,

Didn't Tolkien atrribute their powers to some kind of good magic? If they could be classified as a group of men, then they are either descendants of the Marachian or Beorian tribes who stopped on the westwards journey to Beleriand.

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[The Saucepan Man]

That's a very good point, Sophia, and one which had occured to me when I first read that paragraph, but which I had since forgotten. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I was vaguely annoyed when reading the Silmarillion that we hear very little of the origins of "Yavanna's children".

I was intially attracted by the idea of Beorn's line being Yavanna's protectors of the Kelvar (Beorn is, after all, a vegetarian). However, I think that we can discount them on the basis that they are Men, their skin-changing powers notwithstanding, and theerefore a "sub-set" of the Second Children of Iluvatar.

But there are references in JRRT's works to animals capable of intelligent and independent thought. I am not sure of the exact terminology, but I believe it might be said that they had "fea" (souls?). I am thinking here of the Ravens of Erebor, the Fox that witnesses Frodo, Sam and Pippin pass, and possibly even the Crebain. There may well be others - I cannot recall offhand. Perhaps there was in ME a variety of these "intelligent" creatures (representatives of the various species?), whose presence there was the product of Yavanna's wish that there be guardians to protect the birds and the beasts.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

But true 'rational' creatures 'speaking peoples are all of humanoid form. Only the Valar and Maia are intelligences that could assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar (Thorondor) could be Maia-emissaries of Manwe, but unfortunately...Gwaihir and Landroval are said to be descendants of of Sorontar

HoME 10; Morhoth's Ring

And in the same essay here are some of Tolkien's latter view on Orcs and what they are.

I think that 'talking should not be the sign of possesion of a rational soul or 'fea'...Melkor taught them (Ork's) speech and as they have bred they have inherited this; and htey have as much indepedence as dogs or horses...the same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles, they were taught language by the Valar-but still had no fear

What confuses me here is that it claims they were taught the language of the Valar, which 'Quendi and Eldar' (HoME 11) tells us was notoriously difficult to understand/speak, even for the Noldor, except of course for Feanor. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And it seems that Huan must have known both Quenya and Sindarin, hence the fact that he could understand Luthien's speeches to him, but weren't Northern Sindarin (The one by and large spoken by the exiles) and Sindarin of Doriath diffrent? So did he have (and others like him) have some kind of 'special power' that allowed them to quickly pick up speech, like the Valar and Maia?