I dont userstand.

[rudeboy]

When Sauron forged the One ring what was his intentions, as he didn't know about the 3 elven rings, was he hoping the (high elves, Celebrimbor?) elves were wearing one of the 16 rings the elves forged and (Sauron sullied these) so trapping them that way? Or was he trying to do it another way, if so how? His plan failed as he hadn't reckoned the elves forging the 3 rings, and with them (his own one) Celebrimbor perceived Saurons plans, or did all the rings allow them to perceive Sauron's plan?

Also why could Lorien survive Orc attacks etc but Rivendell would'nt. In the back of RotK it says how Lorien survived 3 attacks and would only fall if Sauron came. Regarding Rivendell, Gandalf tells Frodo whilst trying to go over the Misty Mnts, that to go back to Rivendell would be to admit defeat, and suffer worse defeat again, because they wouldn't be able to set off again and Rivendell would be besieged and after and brief and bitter time it would be destroyed. So why could Rivendell be crushed without Sauron and Lorien would survive til Sauron came. Is the ring Galadriel stronger then Elronds?


So if Sauron the Great and Accursed regains the ring, would this happen? Gandalf, Galadriel & Elrond, be slaves, controlled by him? Rivendell and Lorien would Fall easy. The battle for Minas Tirith and Pellenor by about the same, the Nazgul would be far more powerful and fearful, maybe Witch-King wouldn't killed?

Can anyone let me know if all these are correct, I wanna get it straight it my head!



Thanks

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

You seem to be asking a lot of questions so I'll only address one point you made just now. Sauron forged the Ruling Ring in order to dominate the peoples of Middle-earth. He knew about the Elven Rings and when he found out that the Elves had hid the three most powerful of these, he was mostly furious.

[Boromir88]

I can adress a seperate point that you made.

So why could Rivendell be crushed without Sauron and Lorien would survive til Sauron came. Is the ring Galadriel stronger then Elronds?

The answer is fairly simple, Galadriel had realm over Lorien, and Galadriel was a much more powerful elf then Elrond. Galadriel was noldor, Elrond was half-elven (and was still at this time maybe 3rd powerfullest elf left on Middle-earth, being behind Galadriel and Glorfindel). Galadriel has Nenya, Elrond has vilya. But, most of Galadriel's power comes due to because being Noldor she saw the 2 trees of Valinor, and anyone who saw the two trees had great power (Glorfindel was another who saw the trees). Galadriel, with some aid from Saruman, overthrew the Necromancer (Sauron) from Dol Guldur, so Galadriel was very powerful, which is why Rivendell would be crushed, and Lorien would have held until Sauron came.

[Voralphion]

Galadriel was a much more powerful elf then Elrond

No she wasn't. In a letter regarding whether or not Galadriel could really wield the one ring it was implied that Elrond was in fact more powerful. (Sorry I don't have the quote). Simply being half elven does not mean he is less powerful, in fact in biology hybrids are often stronger than the pure parents. Elrond had the best aspects of both elves and men, as well as being descended from Melian, a maiar. Lorien may have been able to hold out longer due to the fact that Galadriel used her ring more. Also Sauron would send his full force against Rivendell is he was certain the ring was there, something he didn't do against Lorien.

[Boromir88]

Voralphion When, you find the quote, could you please post it, I would like to see it. But being Noldor, and being an elf that had seen the two trees I would think Galadriel would be more powerful. Also, having a role in actually throwing out Sauron from Dol Guldur, shows extreme power. It does say, in LOTR Vilya was the most powerful of the Elven-rings. But, in the Sil and UT it says Nenya and Narya are the most powerful, so I don't the ring is much relevance, but yes Galadriel does seem to use Nenya more then Elrond uses Vilya. Please, show me the quote, then I could change my mind.

[Voralphion]

The quote is here,

Letter 246:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

I had to find it on an old thread. To me, the fact it says especially Elrond seems to say that he was more powerful than Galadriel in the way that if she could do it, then he certainly could.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The other guardians of the Three? That is Elrond and Gandalf, and Gandalf was just mentioned a couple of lines back. That strikes me as a strange line and not wholly convincing.

[Boromir88]

If you look at one of the lines, I think it's just saying that The three elven-ring bearers thought about claiming the ring for themself and overthrowing Sauron. Here is what I mean.

In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

Ok after the bit about Galadriel, I take it as the "if so" meaning if she "conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord," then the "if so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond." I take it as if she thought of wielding the ring to overthrow Sauron, so did the others, especially Elrond, I don't see how that would say Elrond is more powerful. I think it's just saying Elrond, especially thought about wielding the ring and supplanting Sauron, which makes sense, I mean fighting in the Siege of Barad-dur and having Gil-Galad die and all. But that's just how I interpret it, please tell me where you think it suggests Elrond is more powerful, because I interpret it much differently. I enjoy these debates, nothing like a friendly debate between two Tolkien fans.

[Legolas]

The quote is taken completely out of context...the next line(s) of the letter should be included. Remember it says "IF" Galadriel could, Elrond could too, but that is not the case.

Here's that next line...

But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

It says Galadriel thought she could, but that was because of one of the Ring's key powers - deception. Galadriel was deceived into thinking that she could use the Ring for herself.

Please read the rest of the paragraph (and those immediately following it. Letter No. 246:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

[The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']

(The "Of the others" at the beginning means other than Frodo and Aragorn. The previous paragraph explains how Frodo would've lost quickly and the reasons why Aragorn was able to defeat Sauron in the palantir incident.)

It is also important to note that this line is explaining a hypothetical situation that may not even have been possible. The 'in any case' is like saying 'in the unlikely (or impossible) event that Elrond or Galadriel did obtain the Ring and *keep* it from Sauron':

In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force.

There's a conversation similar to this in the old thread Control over the One Ring