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09-12-2004, 11:39 AM | #1 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Sep 2004
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PJ's Most Disagreable Mistakes (reasons why he is no longer aloud doing The Hobbit)
This thread is simply opinion based and has no intention of degrading the movies
In the first movie (i was greatly dissapointed) there was an obvious absence of tom bombadil, the old forest, and the barrow downs and in the third (this really ticked me off) pj took out The Scouring of the Shire just because he didnt like that section of the book! tell me what you think
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09-12-2004, 07:50 PM | #2 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
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How could anyone not like the scouring of the Shire? Hobbits coming home and kicking butt? Sounds most triumphant to me! |
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09-12-2004, 08:14 PM | #3 |
Wight
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Encaitare is right...non-book fans probably would not have enjoyed a longer movie than 3.5 hours. And, the movies were meant to make money for the studio, so it wouldnt really pay to cater to just hard-core Tolkien fans. Not that I would have been averse to that scene being in there....
Wha bugged me most was that the Houses of Healing was left out, but I heard that it was going to be in the Extended version, so I guess that's OK.
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09-12-2004, 09:58 PM | #4 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I found the vicious ravaging suffered by Faramir to be highly off-putting. The sequence going to Osgiliath was particularly egregious.
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09-13-2004, 12:46 AM | #5 |
Brightness of a Blade
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Hang on a second, PJ isn't doing The Hobbit anymore??
On topic: I saw War and Peace a few days ago (the orginal Russian version), whom everyone praised, and indeed everything was exactly how I imagined it, (characters, scenes, settings), almost to the point of boredom. It's like I was reading the book again, this time with a little more vivid mental pictures. War and Peace is one of my favourite books ever, and I was dissapointed that the movie stuck by the book. Hmm, I'm still pondering on that, but anyway, in light of this, I've come to appreciate LOTR, even with all its changes and mistakes even more. It's sure giving us something to talk about, if nothing else.
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09-13-2004, 04:33 AM | #6 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Not Really a mistake, more like an exclusion.
StarJewel and Encaitare:
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My most disagreeable thing with PJ is more of an exclusion, rather then a mistake he made. Eomer, now come on PJ give Eomer some love. I mean Rohan Soldier #35 get's more screen time then Eomer. It's like PJ just told Mr. Urban to stand behind a pole while filming. I don't know about you but Eomer seemed to me like an important part to LOTR, and an important part to Aragorn becoming king (as is being discussed in another thread, which I can't remember right now). I'm dissappointed the PJ had to have elves at helm's deep and the dead army at Minas Tirith. The whole point of LOTR was the rise of men, the strength of men growing and other races fading away, didn't seem like that in the movies. PJ made it seem without elves, the men at helm's deep would have lost, and without the dead army the men of Minas Tirith would have lost. Lastly, I want to see the EE so badly, because it has all sorts of added book scenes that I hope to enjoy. But, yes, if Saruman shoots fireballs out of his staff I will close my eyes. Evisse: Quote:
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09-13-2004, 05:11 AM | #7 | |
Denethor's True Love
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I do happen to enjoy reading the books, but I haven't always liked them. But I would gladly sit through an extra five hours of the movies if necessary.
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I would have liked to have seen the Scouring of the Shire, but personally I'm not a big fan of the Hobbits. I'd rather the Houses of Healing were included or extra battle time given. I preferred to get straight to the action, and I felt the time with the Hobbits dragged a little, although I could see it was essential to the story. But then the same can be said about the Houses of Healing, causing the ending to drag. So I'm disappointed, but not upset that it was excluded in the theater. As much as I wanted to see Tom Bombadil out of pure interest, I'm glad the chapters were cut out completely. It's irrelevant to the central story, and it would result in a whole movie consisting of the Hobbits' journey, which I'm sure even some book fans would find a little tiresome towards the end.
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'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard. |
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09-13-2004, 09:47 AM | #8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Although I was disappointed at some of the exclusions (the 'Downs, Scouring) and insertions (Osgiliath, more Arwen) that PJ implemented, I was pleased with the movies overall, and would be in no way averse to him directing The Hobbit. I realize that some things may be cut (possibly Beorn...), and some things may be added (seeing Legolas in Mirkwood... o.O), but that he will do a very good job nonetheless. My one insistance is that they do a good job with Smaug (my favourite character ^ ^). Abedithon le, ~ Saphy ~
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09-13-2004, 11:14 AM | #9 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Originally posted by Meela
"I can see the Elves point, but I never thought that about the battle at Minas Tirith. It was only towards the end that the Dead Army arrived, and all they did was pick off the stragglers. It was actually the Rohirrim who seemed to save the day, aka. fellow men." --------------------------------------- I tend to disagree. The way I saw it in the movie the Army of the Dead blew away the bad guys. The only importance of the Rohirrim seemed to be to buy a little time until the AotD arrived. You can argue that it was PJ and the girls way of keeping partially true to the book: Gondor threatened, Rohirrim charges but gets stalled, Aragorn with South Gondor levies turning the tide. But consider movie Gimli's comment about keeping the AotD around. I think PJ just wanted some more special effects with the green slime, but it did cheapen the point of the Rohirrim charging. Also, why in the world didn't he have the Rohirrim charge in the dark, then have the sun come out around Theoden, as in the book? Quote:
But worst bits in the movies: FOTR--- I can see why XenaArwen took over for Glorfindel, but it was dumb to replace Frodo saying: Quote:
TTT---Ents saying no to attacking Saruman and then Merry/Pippin's weak ploy to get him to isengard. ROTK---BUt the # 1 stuuuuuupid move by PJ: Gandalf beating up the Steward of Gondor as the Steward's elite guard are picking their teeth! Not only unbelievable, but absurdly not only out of character for Gandalf but expressly against directives to the Istari on how to behave towards the people of Middle-earth: Quote:
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Aure Entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 09-13-2004 at 11:19 AM. |
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09-13-2004, 12:44 PM | #10 |
Laconic Loreman
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Missed it.
Tuor I completely forgot about the Gandalf beating up Denethor moments. Oh jeez, I have to agree that was more dissapointing then basically sticking Eomer behind a pole in the movies. Not only did Gandalf break rules by knocking around the Steward, but also, when Gandalf busted in with Shadowfax on Denethor burning himself, horses weren't allowed there.
So, let me get this straight, Beregond faces trial for following his heart and committing treason, but Gandalf gets away with trespassing and assault? Good job Tuor on pointing that out, that is by far the worst of all of PJ's mistakes. |
09-13-2004, 01:59 PM | #11 |
Lost among the Stars
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I think the worst things in RotK were the removals of most of my favorite characters: Beregond, Bergil, Imrahil, Elladan and Elrohir.
I also think there is way too much Arwen (she's very sexy though ), and that Haldir is taking way too much place. And of course the geocraphical misses (Legolas: "The orcs are turning northeast to Isengard" and Gondor Soldier: "The orcs have taken the eastern shore" (in Osgiliath)).
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09-13-2004, 02:06 PM | #12 |
Laconic Loreman
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What's with the "go home?"
Another thing that I now think of is PJ just likes to leave people. I don't know if it's for some emotional climax. But ok, Merry and Pippin are in Fangorn Forest, 1,000's of miles from home and Treebeard just says, "ok go home little shirelings, find your way eventhough you are in some unfamiliar place in the middle of nowhere." Same with Frodo and Sam, "ya we are in the Middle of Mordor, go home Sam, also you'll have to do it with no food since you ate it all(another problem in the movie how the hell do these hobbits survive months with no food, for the fact that it took them weeks to climb the slope of mount doom, and they do it with in a matter of seconds) but you'll find your way home eventhough we couldn't find our way through Emyn Muil." Heck, atleast Tolkien addressed the problem of food, something a lot of writers I think forget.
Nightknight, just for the info, that "soldier" is the made up lieutenant of Faramir, Madril. Which I happen to like the made up Madril, much better then the made up Lurtz. I mean I just love how the big, hairy, demented, orc guy (yes I know that's supposed to be Gothmog, but I like big, hairy, demented, orc guy better) stabs him with a spear in ROTK. But, I agree I would much rather see Beregond, Imrahil, Elladan or Elrohir then some made up captain or immortal orc fellow. And I've actually speculated that PJ would be much better as Forlong then some Corsair Captain, but I guess he couldn't stand being called "Forlong the fat." You'll have to excuse me, once I get to complaining about all the problems of the movie I can't stop, no matter how bad it might seem though I still love em. Last edited by Boromir88; 09-13-2004 at 02:13 PM. |
09-13-2004, 02:15 PM | #13 | ||||
Raffish Rapscallion
Join Date: Apr 2003
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But Gandalf riding a horse in there against the rules doesn't bother me nearly as much. Since the rule never even came close to being touched upon, I don't mind PJ having Shadowfax in there. I did mind the way that Gandalf seemed to kill Denethor, knocking him back onto the fire. But the horse rule seemed like a rather small nuance to me. Quote:
On the Dead Army: It did seem to me that they pretty much saved the day, regardless of the few Oliphaunts that the Rohirrim took down towards the arrival of the Army, they were still getting whipped pretty badly. But then the Dead Army swooped down & easily wiped out everything in its path...I wish PJ would've stuck with the dead only helping capture the ships, but I guess he thought he needed a way to wrap up the 1st battle ultra-fast. |
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09-13-2004, 02:40 PM | #14 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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Some more.
The Only Real Estel:
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And here is the text to support my argument. Quote:
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09-13-2004, 02:50 PM | #15 | ||
Raffish Rapscallion
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Boromir88: Well, I'm aware that in the books there were 2000 soldiers. And I think that Peter Jackson was aware that there were 2000 soldiers. But, he decided that he wanted there to be more tension, more of a feeling of hopelessness, & more heavily-stacked odds. I've always said I thought he should've gone 10000-2000, but since he didn't, we have what we have.
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Have a good day, Estel Last edited by The Only Real Estel; 09-13-2004 at 02:56 PM. |
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09-13-2004, 06:00 PM | #16 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Another thing that annoyed me to the point of apoplexy was Aragorn's highly wobbly knowledge of geography.
Aragorn: Send for aid to Gondor!!! Yes, that's right, I said Gondor!!! Gondor that cannot possibly be here for a week, in spite of the fact that I just made a daring and heroic entrance to announce that the orcs will be here tonight and we are all doomed!!! Gondor that (to all appearances) does not have enough me to defend its own borders!!! Help us Obi-Wan Denethor, you are our only hope!!!
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09-13-2004, 07:41 PM | #17 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A warg attack is part of Saruman's attack on Theodred in "The Battles
Of The Fords Of Isen", in Unfinished Tales. But even there, JRRT makes a far more realistic use of wargs then PJ's imaginary attack. One of the plusses of LOTR is Tolkien's detailed internal realism, which PJ frequently misses (although the movies were better then I expected, especially FOTR). One of the illogics is (where were the 10,000 Riders before the muster of Rohan?). There are just a handful at Edoras, very few at Helm's Deep, apparently none opposing orcs ravaging the Westfold, and only (2,000?) with Eomer. Oh, and where were Eomer's boys going in the movie, where were their provisions and families? Did they abandon them? Such internal inconsistencies are some of the reasons JRRT took so long to write LOTR, to try to work on them. Recall the effort he took even getting phases of the moon and travel times consistent for all the scattered characters.
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09-13-2004, 08:41 PM | #18 | |
Raffish Rapscallion
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Kuruharan: That part bothered me too. Aragorn acts like he forgot all of Master Elrond's geography lessons in Rivendell, I've always rolled my eyes at that part . |
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09-13-2004, 08:51 PM | #19 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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One thing that I was disappointed about was the change in the charge of the rohrimm. The speech Thoeden said in the book was much more stirring than the one in the movie and I think the blast he blew on his horn causing it the explode would have been impressive but was left out. Also the change in the demenor of the riders of rohan and Eomer after finding Eowyn, from singing to calling for death should have been included along with Eomer's joy at seeing the standard of Gondor break on the Corsairs ships and his meeting with Aragorn in the midst of battle.
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09-14-2004, 12:53 PM | #20 | |
Laconic Loreman
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More ramblings.
Kuruharan
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"Saruman's arm would have grown long indeed if he thinks he can reach us here." WTH, isn't Helm's Deep closer to Isengard then Edoras? Ya, I can see the rationale, "let's flee from Edoras because Saruman is going to attack us, so let's go even closer to him in Helm's Deep." PJ, should have just stuck with Theoden already willing to go to Helm's Deep and fight. Oh, and I almost forgot, with Elrond, one minute in Rivendell, and bam there you go in Dunharrow. So OK, Haldir bought a Transporter Beam from Scottie, who then lent it to Elrond. Them Elves must have made great strides in technology within the last couple days. |
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09-14-2004, 02:35 PM | #21 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Part of it was that whole sequence leading up to the battle was so dreadfully done that when the elves arrived it was almost a relief because I knew that the fighting would be starting soon. (The battle sequences being less burdened with plot for PJ to mess up.)
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09-14-2004, 04:29 PM | #22 |
Wight
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I was absolutely outraged at the absence of the Scouring of the Shire. That was when the Hobbit's were able to show their quality and become true heroes. And another reason, that was when the first Hobbit was killed in the Shire. People will walk out of the movie still thinking that if they're in a safe place such as the Shire no harm will ever come to them. In a way the lack of this information could be helpful, however, Tolkien was trying to make a point with his writings. That is the one mistake that I think ruined a very important aspect of the movie. They are still incredible, riveting movies but some very key moments have been left with no justice being done to them.
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09-14-2004, 05:20 PM | #23 |
Laconic Loreman
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Council of Elrond.
I can't get through the Council of Elrond in FOTR without cracking up laughing. First you have Elrond and his rageful talk about "I hate dwarves they hide in mountains, I hate men they are weak, heck I even hate my own race because I'm a old grumpy elf."
Then we have, the Council itself, where these random elves, men, and dwarves just happen to come from nowhere. Ok in the book the "councillers" are, Gandalf, Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli, Gloin, Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir, Elrond, Erestor, Glorfindel, Galdor (1 wizard, 2 hobbits, 2 dwarves, 2 men, 5 elves). In the movie, they replace Bilbo, with about 5 men, 5, dwarves, and 10 elves, and these people just happen to come no where, and there only point is to sit there, look interested, and nod their heads. Why? Why leave out Bilbo, and put in meaningless people who do nothing? |
09-14-2004, 06:02 PM | #24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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While I liked much of the Moria bit there were two poor parts:
1) Moria falling apart, show's what happens when you have too much deferred maintenance. 2) Orcs surround the Fellowship then are scared away by the balrog. Why not just have the thousands of orcs finish the nine walkers off? Of course PJ did it (especially Moria falling down) for his fetish for cinematic pyrotechnics. One can imagine Gandalf dazzling the orcs with white light and some sort of cutting through blinded orcs, but the surrounding bit was just overdone, another example of tampering with the novel leading to an inferior outcome. But its remarkable how, when PJ keeps more to the book and adds to it his cinematography skills, and generally excellent casting, the result is far better then his plot "innovations", with a few good exceptions, such as Sean Bean's Boromir, including his (added by scriptwriters?) Lorien soliloquy.
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09-14-2004, 06:16 PM | #25 |
A Shade of Westernesse
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Two annoyed cents
There is a seemingly endless supply of criticisms that can be hurled at Jackson's movies - many are fair, many aren't; I personally didn't think many of the changes he made were for the better, but what really bugged me were lines like Legolas's, "Why am I not surprised?" (Fellowship of the Ring EE) and Aragorn's, "Let's hunt some orc!" Far too colloquial - modern movie clichés, really - to be used by characters like those two. PJ & Co., I think, did a poor job on many of the little things.
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09-14-2004, 06:30 PM | #26 |
Laconic Loreman
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Tuor all I got to say FLAMING FIREBALLS SARUMAN! ROTK EE! lol.
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09-14-2004, 07:38 PM | #27 | |||||||
Raffish Rapscallion
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things are being overlooked
I know this is a thread where we're supposed to list all of PJ's mistakes, but I still have to bring up a few points in his defense (about a year ago, you'd never have caught me doing this):
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"Lets hunt some orc!" (Aragorn) "Why doesn't that suprise me?" Legolas) "She-elf" (Blackrider) And others too. Naturally, I could point out a lot of little things that I thought he nailed, but I'll restrain myself on that one . Don't get me wrong, I have issues with parts of the movie just like everyone else. But when I think there is a good explanation for it, I tend to defend it. |
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09-14-2004, 08:44 PM | #28 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
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09-15-2004, 04:20 AM | #29 |
Laconic Loreman
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Encaitare as I've said these are probably the best movie I have seen from the past 30 years. I'm just pointing out what I don't like about the movie. Not to brag, but I'm not pointing out any of the cuts PJ made, because I thought most cuts he made were ligitimate, besides maybe some of the key characters. I'm pointing out things he changed, for really stuff that I don't understand why he did it.
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09-17-2004, 08:29 AM | #30 |
Emperor of the South Pole
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I wont go into PJ's script and who he had play the characters here, but I will pick on a few technical issues that bugged me with the movies which could have been corrected very simply. The time/space scale was very confusing and really didn't give the watcher a sense of the distances and the time it took to cover it. This was prevalent in the Fellowship as Gandalf rides off from the Shire to Minas Tirth, then to isengard. A simple subtitle 'some months later' or such would have helped. Also, in return of the King, Osgoliath was not that close to Minas Tirith. At the least it was 20 miles away and the most 50 miles away across Pelennor Field, and there was no Rammas Echor wall in the movie.
To be fair, where PJ did capture the proper time/space scale was where the Uruk Hai, and Aragorn, Gimli, & Legolas were running across Rohan. There is more, but I'm at work so I dont have the time to elaborate. (hears sighs of relief from the downers) |
09-17-2004, 11:47 AM | #31 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Abedithon le, ~ Saphy ~
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09-17-2004, 01:01 PM | #32 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Growth.
Sapphire
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09-17-2004, 01:52 PM | #33 |
Bittersweet Symphony
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Plus, the Scouring shows that even their little hobbity "paradise" is not untouchable. The hardest blow for the hobbits was seeing their home destroyed, but with this part taken out it's just all "La dee da, we saved the world and now we're going back to our perfect home! Go us!" I would have loved to have seen the mallorn tree there, especially. And it provides the proper deaths of Saruman and Grima, not what PJ's got in store! (Check out this thread if you don't mind spoilers.)
Although I must say the hobbits cheekily riding by the old guy sweeping the walkway is priceless. |
09-17-2004, 11:39 PM | #34 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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This was not a change for the better. Before you ask, yes, one of the things I was thinking of was that ridiculous (unspeakable, unfathomable, improbable, impossible…) scene with the Nazgul in Osgiliath.
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09-18-2004, 07:46 AM | #35 | |
Haunting Spirit
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I did not like how they made the Gondorians idiots. Why would Gandalf have to tell them to shoot the trolls and not the towers?
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09-18-2004, 11:24 AM | #36 | ||
Raffish Rapscallion
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09-18-2004, 08:47 PM | #37 |
Laconic Loreman
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The Orcs seemed like some super unstoppable warrior against the Gondorians, I mean they were bashing them with hammers, biting them, throwing them off the wall...etc. Where against the Rohirrim the orcs were as dumb as rocks, I mean if you watch the charge of the Rohirrim, you can see orcs flinging themself into the Rohan horses.
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09-19-2004, 02:07 PM | #38 |
Haunting Spirit
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One orc couldn't properly use a bow when the Rohirim charge. (Look closely, you will see one arrow is pointing at the wrong angle)
They did make the Gondorian regulars seem inempt at fighting orcs, though the Ithilian Rangers did a goo job of killing those Easterlings in TTT. Also, Faramir would not make that suicide charge to Osgiliath in the book.
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09-19-2004, 08:23 PM | #39 |
Bittersweet Symphony
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Well, he did ride for Osgiliath in the book, did he not? It wasn't a "suicide charge" but he did it nonetheless.
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09-20-2004, 04:06 PM | #40 | ||
Raffish Rapscallion
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Obviously, if Jackson gave Frodo red hair or something like that, then we can point to the book on that, but that's a major change to a major character. In fact, even Faramir's hair color change isn't very big; he's not the biggest character in the books, & probably about 75% of book-reading fans don't even catch it until it's pointed out to them. Quote:
Edit: cross-posting down to a matter of seconds with Zebedee Last edited by The Only Real Estel; 09-20-2004 at 04:12 PM. |
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