Authority of the High King

[Maédhros]

In the whole Silmarillion, we see that the authority of the High King of the Noldor is not that much:
Finwë's authority was cut short by the Valar in the Fëanor sword incident with Fingolfin.
Fëanor's rebellion was well met by the majority of the Noldor but most of them followed the House of Fingolfin.
Fingolfin's plan to assault Morgoth came to none, bringing his despair that made him seek and battle Morgoth one on one.
I wonder, was their authority that great, or was it just a mere title?

[Kuruharan]

I'd say it's a ceremonial title. It's really grand sounding, and you get to be the nominal leader at "group things." But other than that I don't think it meant a great deal.

[akhtene]

To my mind the history of Noldor shows that the authority of their High Kings wasn't great at all.

What is the power or authority of a king based on? Birth-right (eg. Aragorn) or great services to his people. But neither is true for the first of the Noldor kings, Finwe. He was merely chosen by Orome, together with Ingwe and Elwe, as ambassadors for their people in Valinor.
Later the elves followed these leaders "who afterwards became kings" but I doubt that the people owed much to them. In case of Finwe's children, those were no better than any other elf, with the same virtues and follies (and a lot of those), and besides much younger than others. (Well, I'm not sure the latter mattered much for the immortal elves)
But anyway, as they were accepted as

nominal leaders at "group things."

they hardly were granted any influence or power to raise their people to act against their wishes or personal ambitions.

[Maédhros]

Yes, I have to say that you're right. If the High King couldn't convince his people to do something they wouldn't do it. To me it was an "honorary" title.

[Rimbaud]

The study of heraldry (and perhaps European monarchy in particular) would assist you in considering this issue. In the Old World, titles changed rapidly at times, and at others more slowly. This is simply the nature of autocracy - it is inherently unstable.

In the Ancient world, of Pharoahs and Shoguns, a similar pattern of warfare and strife emerges. These struggles for leadership and changes thereof do not necessarily mean a diminishing of the power held at the apex at any one time. I have always found it interesting that despite the Elves' immortality, they were unable, in Beleriand at least, to form a stable coalition with consistent membership. However, to say that the High King was merely ceremonial is a little inaccurate; some of the holders of such a title held it for a considerable time. Some of the leaguers of Angband were of great length.

[lindil]

Akhtene,
I disagree w/ your statement that they [ the kings of the elven clans] were no one special.

form the ch. Of the Coming of the Elves [silm 77]

Thus it was that when Nahar neighed and orome indeed came among them, some of the Quendi, fled and hid themselves and were lost.But those who had great courage and stayed perceived swiftly that the great rider was no shape out of darkness; for the light of Aman was in his face and all of the noblest of Elves were drawn towards it

I have no doubt that it was from among these first 'courageous' elves that the later emmisarries were sent.

The chapter 'of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie' and 'of the Silmarils' also go into detail about the qualities of the House of Finwe that made them natural leadrers of their people and in some cases of entire feilds of a craft [Feanor].

HoME 12 also contains the 'Shibboleth of Feanor' that also shows the exalted nature of the House of Finwe. Galadriel in particular in JRRT's laterwritings [12 and UT] is singled out as along w/ Feanor 'being the greatest of all of the Noldor'.

I do agree that the high-kingship of the Eldar/Noldor was bordering on nominal.[ Although Elwe's was far more potent than others]. They seemingly had the opwer to summon councils and were also probably arbitrators of disputes. The seemmed however to need something of a consensus to lead.

-=-=-=-=-
In terms of them the rulers of the Elf houses being ordinary joe's :
Reflect on this Elwe was of such a stature that he won the hand of a Maia.


Finwe, was of such braveness that he attempted to hold the door of formenos against Melkor.
And his son Fingolfin certainly made a good account of himself against Morgoth in single combat.
Finrod's nobility and character are among the highest in the first age as shown both in his dealings w/ Beren and Andreth.

These princes and princes and Kings of the Noldor were the cream of the [Noldorin] crop. They were not w/out character flaws - obviously - but in terms of shear potential, perhaps we could call it genetic pre-disposition, they were both the natural and lineal leaders of the Noldor.

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Aiwendil]

The High King of the Noldor did not, it seems, directly rule all the Noldor. The Noldor had several kings ruling over several distinct kingdoms. At the least, there were three broad kingdoms - the Feanorians, the Fingolfinians, and the Finarfinians. There was also Gondolin, which was autonomous of the rest of the house of Fingolfin; Turgon was called 'king' before he was the high king. The land controlled by Angrod and Aegnor may have been considered an independent kingdom as well.

The high king, then, did not rule directly over all of his people. He was, rather, recognized as an authority above the various other kings. He also had his own kingdom, over which he did rule directly.

By the way, I'm not sure whether the title 'High King' was ever actually used by Tolkien; I haven't been able to find it in any of the texts. It may have been invented by Christopher. Nonetheless, I think the concept of a high king - i.e., a single overruler of the Noldor - is definitely present.

[akhtene]

lindil,
By my post I in no way wanted to underestimate the personal qualities of the House of Finwe. What I meant was that, IMHO Finwe didn't have enough chance (or time) to distinguish himself among the elves, but was merely chosen by the Vala.

The Stewards of Gondor believed that thousands of years were not enough to make a king; and the elves established the Ruling Houses during two generations. Just too fast. No tradition of obedience, of accepting someone being superior to you. It probably worked well in case of Ingwe and Olwe, as their power wasn't put to such ultimate tests. It worked well for Galadriel,though she didn't claim the title as in the course of years (shall I say 'millemiums') she won respect and gained experience. Gil-Galad was the great King and war leader. So the kings' power seems to have strengthen, but after a long time had passed and probably too late.
(I'm sorry if it doesn't make sense. I really don't have much knowledge of monarchy)

[Tirned Tinnu]

Perhaps we need to look at "kingship" as "leadership".
In the course of participating with a medievalist group I have seen Kings come and go. In the group that I was with, each year they would create a new king thru combat. If the contestant wasn't a good fighter, or was a woman, they would choose a champion to fight for them.
I have seen men with good and bad leadership skills; I have even seen one impeached and banished. What strikes me is this:
No matter who was the king at the time, there was always one or two men in the group that had the respect of all their friends. They fought well, they had knightly bearing and knowlege (of music, dance, history and poetry). These men were the real leaders of our group. Through kingships and thru dukedoms, they consistantly stood for what was good and right. I believe that this was what Tolkien meant when he said "this person was king of his people." It was a title bestowed before Christianity. We must remember that our conceptions of Kingship allude to "god given" powers that were not in existance at the time of the rulers in The Sil. Rather we should think of the men in our lives who instill justness, gentleness, honor, and have our respect.
Those are the real kings in our lives just as the Kings were to the Elves, in their time.

[Maédhros]

I have always found it interesting that despite the Elves' immortality, they were unable, in Beleriand at least, to form a stable coalition with consistent membership. However, to say that the High King was merely ceremonial is a little inaccurate; some of the holders of such a title held it for a considerable time. Some of the leaguers of Angband were of great length.

You're right, but the "High King" (Noldor) was never able to get his way (do what he wanted) in regards to all of the Kingdoms under his rule. Ex. (Fëanor, Fingolfin)

I do agree that the high-kingship of the Eldar/Noldor was bordering on nominal.[ Although Elwe's was far more potent than others]. They seemingly had the opwer to summon councils and were also probably arbitrators of disputes. The seemmed however to need something of a consensus to lead.

This is very close to what I think.

Wow, to have both Lindil, Aiwendil and Rimbaud post in one of my threads. I'm honored.

[lindil]

The following thread was the rage of the board for a couple of days, I have never seen anything so avidly followed [ we could watch the views then, ahemmm] anyway it touches in no little way upon this subject.

I tried to copy the link but.. anyway in the

public silm forum I have just moved the kings of the Noldor and Canon to the top.

I havn't re-read it in awhile but the debate was shall we say 'vigorous'.

Any way as I said before it was the most dfascinating thing I have ever watched take place on the downs.
....ahhh the good ole days

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Maédhros]

This is the link that lindil mentioned.
The Kings of the Noldor and Canon
A great discussion indeed.

[Tar Elenion]

I 'bumped' the 'Aragorn's Ancestors' thread http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=000538
where the debate began.

[lindil]

OK just in case there is any confusion,
The Aragorn's Ancestors
thread now in THe Books] came first and then the 'kings of the Noldor and Canon'[currently located in the 'Silmarillion:drafts, canon studies and theories'forum concluded.

enjoy.

[HerenIstarion]

Akhtene
No tradition of obedience, of accepting someone being superior to you

can't agree. cf:

And Felagund seeing that he was forsaken took from his head the silver crown of Nargothrond and cast it at his feet, saying: 'Your oaths of faith to me you may break, but I must hold my bond

Not mere tradition, but even ceremonial rites, i.e. subjects were to take "oaths of faith" upon enthroning of the monarch.

Still more, High elves where closest to the source of such a tradition - Valar. No better paragon of rightful monarchy was to be found elsewhere, but in Valinor.

Low influence of the "High" King of the Noldor (I think Tolkien terms such a person simply "king of the Noldor") has several reasons, them reading as follows:

1. Political system of elves at the given time is not feudal, but rather tribal - each leader is reigning over some family group - ie sindar, noldor, nandor etc, not, strictly speaking, over "feud", piece of land. Therefore high kings authority is similar to that of a "Tribal alliance Chief"'s.

2 elves are fallen. Their rebellion agains Valar made it impossibel for thir high king to rule by advice, as Manwe does. For obedience to Manwe is of free will, he is not forcing, but his subjects are rather allies and friends, than subjects proper

3 elves are not fallen enough, ie they mental state is not allowing their high king to become tyrant. They still retain the memory of how King should behave, but it's not always enough, so to say.

H-I said [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Maédhros]

I have been perusing the subject and I wondered if there truly was an appointed "High King" of the Noldor.

But Indis parted from me without death. I had not seen her for many years, and when the Marrer smote me I was alone. She hath dear children to comfort her, and her love, I deem, is now most for Ingoldo.
His father she may miss; but not the father of Fëanáro! But above all her heart now yearns for the halls of Ingwë and the
peace of the Vanyar, far from the strife of the Noldor. Little comfort should I bring her, if I returned; and the lordship of the Noldor hath passed to my sons.'

Does that meant that there was not true heir to the Throne of Noldor?

[Eol]

Keeping in mind that Tolkien's studies and inspiration was anglo-saxon culture. His model was a chieftain. They were purely leaders of their families and would go into war leading their troops, proving themselves worthy to hold the title.

It is not tribal, rather it is the clan system, with chieftains and a "high chief" or king.

Thinking this, it makes sense why the kings would go to war with their men along with thier heirs would go out and to war or to quest. Legolas was mentioned to be possibly be related to Thranduil, as a prince. Lego had yo go out and prove his right to be heir.

Though I suppose what I just said summed up several other comments that have already been given.