distortions in relationships in LOTR

[Encaitare]

I can see where you're going with this, by the way. I know that slash is usually presented as AU. Huzzah.

Well, I wasn't trying to attack you with your own words or anything, just curious.

To appease the liberal masses, I will admit I have read some slash. A couple were quite well written, and I respect that. The ones that are more emotionally based rather than erotically based are a bit better, in my opinion.

Well done, there, Sapphire! I can definitely respect that you gave it a shot and then formed your opinion based on that. Seems a bit fairer to me. And yeah, the erotic stuff... yech. Sometimes really, really unnecessary. I personally prefer just to explore the emotional bit.

Seems we've mostly reached an understanding, and sorry if I did get "PMSy" at ya, Sapphire. I guess I'm just a wholehearted defender of the slash.

~Encaitare

[Evisse the Blue]

On the topic of all fanfic being non-canon: I cannot agree to such a simplistic view; it's like saying that every one of us is guilty because of the original sin. Some are more innocent than others, and that's how some fics are more canon than others. As for not being able to guess what a character would have thought in a certain situation: that depends on a writer's psychological insight. We all make guesses about what goes on in each other's minds, and the better we know that person, the more accurate these guesses are.
When I read a fic that's well-written and does not stray from canon, I get a feeling of authenticity, while when I read a well-written slash fic, for instance, (to get back on topic), the feeling is that of frustration and confusion. And that's not because I have something against slash (slash fic directed at other fandoms in which slash is conceivable is okay, slash fic in Tolkien's world is like puting an elephant in a china store).

I realise how this debate may turn into an endless reiteration of divergent opinions, so I'll try to stay away from this topic from now on unless I think of some really strong arguments to prove my point.

[Sapphire_Flame]

I can definitely respect that you gave it a shot and then formed your opinion based on that. Seems a bit fairer to me.

Me too. ^ ^

So in that case, anything so blatantly against his values is disrespectful and I don't see anything around it, no matter how serious or circumspect a certain story is. (This is similar to the way movieFaramir still bothers me because I don’t think the filmmakers can satisfactorily explain going diametrically opposite to Tolkien’s acknowledged feelings about the character, even if the EE makes him a more sympathetic sort).

***

I just don’t see as how Sophocles or Beowulf or world mythology in general really proves the point that slash can be a serious addition to Tolkien’s novels. Especially since they are just that: novels. Culturally significant novels, surely, but still the work and property of one man, based on established archtypes and myths, not a new myth itself. That, in my opinion, makes it less malleable...

*applauds* Very well stated, Diamond. I highly agree with your opinions here.

slash fic directed at other fandoms in which slash is conceivable is okay, slash fic in Tolkien's world is like puting an elephant in a china store

*grin* Nice analogy, Evisse.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Lyta_Underhill]

On the topic of all fanfic being non-canon: I cannot agree to such a simplistic view; it's like saying that every one of us is guilty because of the original sin.

I stand guilty of having a simplistic view of the universe and its concepts, but over the years, I have come to realize that simplistic does not necessarily equal naive or erroneous (although inevitably incomplete, as all single views of the universe are). The statement of non-canonicity of fanfiction is stated as an absolute, but it is not necessarily set in stone. I suppose it depends on what your definition of "canonicity" is, and even that can be subject to change over time, as CJT's compilations and educated interpretations slowly become incorporated into the primary works of the Tolkien universe. But, then again, I do not consider CJT's works to be fanfiction; they are a mixture of editorial and "historical" writing that is more a chronicle than a new story or collection of new stories. His is the work of a literary archaeologist and not that of a fiction writer.

If one were to admit some fanfictions into the arena of "canon," then one must open up the doors of mythology to this evolutionary process and admit that Tolkien's world belongs to all of us and the world of Middle Earth is as a real Faerie realm that can be influenced by a worthy wit. I am not averse to this idea, but, as you said earlier, Evisse, I haven't seen the equal of Sophocles writing on www.fanfiction.net, for instance. (Then again, I don't get out much and haven't read as widely as many others). I have read some stories that capture most of the ambience of Tolkien's universe, but I understand them to be "missing stories," variations and inspirations, rather than candidates for canonical works. This doesn't decrease their worth or beauty in my eyes, however. I personally agree with you about the slash factor in Middle Earth, at least where it pertains to the characters as written by Tolkien. But I do allow that others may have different views. Fictions based on what I perceive to be proper characterization (slash-free) are, in my view, just as "non-canon" as those that incorporate slash or other character variations. The former simply pleases me better, while the latter makes me scratch my head (although the humorous ones are easier to read because I understand they are take-offs from the very beginning).

Some are more innocent than others, and that's how some fics are more canon than others.

This statement implies a judgement on the material from a subjective point of view, unless the terms "innocent" and "canon" are objectively defined. One's view of "canon" will define how close a work is to the concepts delineated as "canon," and one's view of innocence will determine how close a person is to being innocent. For that matter, one's view of beautiful will determine how close a work is to meeting those standards of beauty. It is all in the eye of the beholder, and that is why I defend the freedom of the writer, regardless of what "canon" may mean. (My definition of "canon" is simply my own view and does not reflect any official standard.)

So in that case, anything so blatantly against his values is disrespectful and I don't see anything around it, no matter how serious or circumspect a certain story is. (This is similar to the way movieFaramir still bothers me because I don’t think the filmmakers can satisfactorily explain going diametrically opposite to Tolkien’s acknowledged feelings about the character, even if the EE makes him a more sympathetic sort).

I can see your point, Diamond, if one restricts the playing field to perceived values of the author of a realm, and I, for one, respect my conception of Tolkien's values to the extent that I can't seem to finish writing a fanfiction, much less write one with slashed characters. This respect has kept my hands out of his world, except for analysis and rhapsody, but I believe that there is room for such things, as evidenced by the RPG forums. (I understand there are rules of conduct there that limit straying into the controversial realms, but the door is opened, if you take my meaning.) And, yes, I agree with you about movieFaramir; I wasn't satisfied with the expanded "Apology for Faramir" in the TTT:EE either, as it turned him into simply an emotional child vying for his father's love, rather than an independent, wise and faithful Captain of Gondor who valued the Good over the survival of the Realm. But certainly there are some who take the PJ movie "fanfictions" as canon out there, even if they play around with Tolkien's concepts and characters. I don't accord them such status, but I also believe they are justified as the respectful variation/interpretation of other writers. And they remain imperfect. But I can be entertained by them, while suspending my disbelief in the changes in characterization and storyline.

I suppose I've rambled on waaay too long now! I hope some of this makes sense, and I welcome divergent opinions; that is part of what keeps conversation interesting!

Cheers!
Lyta

[E. Fester]

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

On the topic of all fanfic being non-canon: I cannot agree to such a simplistic view; it's like saying that every one of us is guilty because of the original sin.

I'm not trying to dismiss your opinion, but I honestly can't see the link. IMO, fanfic isn't really canon because it's not written by the author.

Nothing's simple. That's why I write.

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

Some are more innocent than others, and that's how some fics are more canon than others.

My personal belief is that no one is innocent, and that some fics are more canon than others, but none of them are entirely canon, however good the fic's writer. That's just me, though. And I like the loss of innocence.