Strange Curses!

[Gelmir]

When reading "The passing of the grey company" a thought came to me. How were the men of the mountains cursed? I think it was Isildur who cursed them, (correct me if I’m wrong), If so, how did he do that? He was a mortal, how could he have such powers to curse someone so?
To me he would need to be an ainur of some description to have powers like this. Did he have a wizard friend or something?
Can anyone help?

[Morsul the Dark]

This conused me as well

ALthough perhaps being as powerful as he was he, at least in the beginning, could bend the ring ever so slightly (because I believe the ring was weakened mainly out of confusion at having a new master) and used it to curse them

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

There's only this problem that Isildur cursed the men before he went to war against Sauron i.e. he didn't have the Ring then.
" And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk..."
If Isildur had lost the battle the curse wouldn't have worked (or that is how I understand it).

[Morsul the Dark]

ALright and Ill now admit I thought it was after my mistake... but that does not explain how he did the curse and I think if a mortal can curse an entire army for an eternity then a red eye can manifest on top of a tower

here's my second less magical answers

He filled the souls of the warriors with such guilt that they did not feel worthy of death and stayed to the land.... but why curse them only if you win.... It would make more sense to curse them if you lose (indeed curse them either way) but if you lost it may have been the lack of warriors you had and their army was the amount need to overpower the dark lord...

[Son of Númenor]

I don't think, Morsul, that it was the power of the Ring that Isildur used to curse the dead army. If it were, then likely only the person who wielded the Ring could lift the curse; as it was, the person who lifted the curse was Aragorn, Heir of Isildur, not Frodo, Ring-bearer.

In many mythologies, curses (and oaths) are very serious business, no matter who the curser is. The 'curse' is tied up with the concept of 'fate vs. free will' that runs as a primary theme throughout Tolkien's works (Morgoth's curse on the House of Hurin, the Oath of Feanor, etc). In a world where two opposing entities - fate and free will - are constantly at work, where prophecies and oaths are being made and curses cast, and where only the Creator can see all ends, a being such as Morgoth has no more 'right' or 'ability' to curse than a mortal man.

[Mister Underhill]

There's a very old and very interesting thread that examines this topic: "The curse of Isildur..." Old-timers will remember Saulotus in his surfer-dude persona in this one.

That discussion spawned a more generalized -- but still quite interesting -- discussion of "Magic in Middle-earth".

For those who like perusing scrolls of ancient and nearly-forgotten lore...

[Gelmir]

I hate it when that happens, you think you've started a good topic, and then someone has to ruins it by directing you to another, it's alright Underhill. Any hoo, lets see the old and dusty topic then.
Its pretty cool.

Hooray, I'm now a pile o' bones!

[Mister Underhill]

Don't take me wrong, Gelmir. Those topics are very old and many of their participants don't even post here anymore. I thought they might be worth looking at to see what ideas others had had, but there's no reason the topic can't be continued here, perhaps fueled by and building from those older ideas.

[Gelmir]

It's okay, sorry, if I sounded (I don't think you can hear the tone of my voice, mind) sarcastic. So, any way. If anyone can think of any strange curses that you don't know how it happened, just type in, and we could all debate it together, like some...

[Gelmir]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Don't take me wrong, Gelmir. Those topics are very old and many of their participants don't even post here anymore. I thought they might be worth looking at to see what ideas others had had, but there's no reason the topic can't be continued here, perhaps fueled by and building from those older ideas.

I've got my answer, thanks dude!

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Right...

Left...

Anyway, Here's one,
Melkor proclaimed the curse of Hurin, He had power to make such a curse, yes?
Now, the thing is, this curse was a major curse! It affected his children, (I.E Turin) and all who came into contact with them. If, (and this is a big IF) the line of Hurin had continued on after Turin, would the curse still have held?
This is something that had puzzled me for a while.
I came up with a solution; There is an awful lot of talk of the word 'Fate' wafting around the Downs, Devine intervention and such alike, which leads to all the deep philosophical stuff that Tolkien perhaps did not see coming when he rote the epic. I think that, although the fate was disastrous and tragic, perhaps it WAS divine intervention that stopped the Line of Hurin so that the curse would not continue and do more hurt to Arda and its peoples.

Any thoughts?

[Rimbaud]

In my thinking, this has always been Tolkien utilising an old tradition in fantastical writing. The use of the curse is ancient in life and literature, and I do not believe JRRT intended for this 'magic' to have any sort of logical system.

[Gelmir]

how about enchantment?

[InklingElf]

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

In my thinking, this has always been Tolkien utilising an old tradition in fantastical writing. The use of the curse is ancient in life and literature, and I do not believe JRRT intended for this 'magic' to have any sort of logical system.

I'll have to second Rimbaud on that statement.

I also found an interesting post by the Barrow Wight on the curse of Isildur board (thanks for that link Mister Underhill):

Originally Posted by Barrow Wight

What sets the Men of the White Mountains apart from the other traitorous Men of Middle-Earth, especially those unfaithful ones of the First Age. Elves, seemingly closer to Eru than Men (or are they just closer to the Valar?), are never reported as having asked for such a curse against Man or Elf. And they were betrayed more often than not.

All facts point to Isildur having the power of God. This is the same Isildur later slain after falling into the temptation of evil (the Ring).

Is this a Numenorian trait?

[gorthaur_cruel]

Actually, I believe that the answer can be found in Unfinished Tales, in Narn i Hin Hurin. The following quote could explain this (emphasis mine).

(Mim) '...But this I will add: he that loosed the shaft shall break his bow and his arrows and lay them at my son's feet; and he shall never take arrow nor bear bow again. If he does, he shall die by it. That curse I lay on him.'
Androg was afraid when he heard of this curse; and though he did so with great grudge, he broke his bow and his arrows and laid them at the dead Dwarf's feet. But as he came out from the chamber, he glanced evilly at Mim, and muttered: 'The curse of a Dwarf never dies, they say; but a Man's too may come home. May he die with a dart in his throat!'

So I believe that Men can lay curses too.

[Gelmir]

Oh, Great(no sarcasm intended)! So could any other race lay a curse apart from man and elf, oh and miar and valar? Like hobbits, do they have ebough strength in them to do it?

Take into mind I haven't read all of Tolkeins Middle earth books

[InklingElf]

Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel

'The curse of a Dwarf never dies, they say; but a Man's too may come home.

Is that a general statement then?

I wonder if these curses are only imminent in the Royal blood-lines, hence Isildur's curse. From my understanding kings of Numenor (like Aragorn in ROTK when he called upon Eowyn's soul) utilize the power of words in strong and profound ways -- whether in healing or felling...

[Earendilyon]

In the thread Oaths & Oathbreaking there's also some nice discussion on the Curse of the Grey Company, albeit from another angle.

[Lhundulinwen]

Personally, I think a curse is like an ultimate oath, or maybe an oath with a definate consequence. In ME, as well as most classical mythological stories and the Bible, if you break an oath some type of retribution will result. A curse, at least in Isildur's case, is what happens after an oath is broken. The point of Isildur's curse is to not give you're word lightly or dishonestly or Aragorn will come a few 1,000 years later and MAKE you fulfill your oath. That's my version of it anyways, .

[InklingElf]

Originally Posted by Lhundulinwen

Personally, I think a curse is like an ultimate oath, or maybe an oath with a definate consequence. In ME, as well as most classical mythological stories and the Bible, if you break an oath some type of retribution will result. A curse, at least in Isildur's case, is what happens after an oath is broken. The point of Isildur's curse is to not give you're word lightly or dishonestly or Aragorn will come a few 1,000 years later and MAKE you fulfill your oath. That's my version of it anyways, .

in other words: what goes around comes around

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

It had been held lawful only for the King of Númenor to call Eru to witness, and then only on the most grave and solemn occasions. The line of the Kings came to an end in Ar-Pharazôn who perished in the Downfall; but Elendil Voronda was descended from Tar-Elendil the fourth King, and was held to be the rightful lord of the Faithful, who had taken no part in the rebellion of the Kings and had been preserved from destruction. (UT III 2 - endnote 44)

Perhaps the people of the King of the Mountains had sworn an oath not dissimilar to the one sworn by Éorl to Cirion. And since both Isildur and Cirion called Eru in witness, any effects of those oaths will be upheld by Eru.

[InklingElf]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

Perhaps the people of the King of the Mountains had sworn an oath not dissimilar to the one sworn by Éorl to Cirion. And since both Isildur and Cirion called Eru in witness, any effects of those oaths will be upheld by Eru.

That IS a logical conclusion...