The folly of the Valar?

[Frodo Baggins]

I have recently read Unfinished Tales (And loved every bit). When it came to the chapter on the Istari I found this little interesting tidbit.

"And this [the sending of the Istari] the Valar did, desiring to ammend the errors of old, especially that they had attmepted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed"

Was this folly their forcing the Elves to go to Aman and live with them? Would the Silmaril problem and kinslaying have been avoided had they let the Elves be? When I first read the Silmarillion I got the Impression that the Valar at first saw the elves as toys to play with. All thoughts on this would be appreciated

[The Saucepan Man]

When I first read the Silmarillion I got the Impression that the Valar at first saw the elves as toys to play with.

No, that would be the Velour.

The Valar, on the other hand, did it with the best of intentions (to protect and educate the Eldar), although it did go rather awry. Then again, they were only Ainur.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

But there were some who disagreed with that policy.

"Then again the Valar were gathered in council, and they were divided in debate. For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth, and with their gifts of skill order all the lands and heal their hurts.....From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell."

[Osse]

I was just about to quote that exact piece Tuor!
I believe that Ulmo was prudent - why not let the Eldar be alone to their own devices in Middle Earth. The correspondance between Valinor and Middle Earth could still be great, and much could still be taught and learned, without the need to live together. I believe Ulmo (and quite obviously Ossë) forsaw that problems would arise from the Eldar dwelling with the Ainur - if anything ever went wrong, they'd feel pent up and captive.

That said, Morgoth would still have come to power, and the problems (though maybe not as dragged out) would still have been very severe. There would have been no Silmarils to fight over, yet Morgoth would still have caused chaos. Perhaps some elves could have been swayed by the dark lord and a racial civil war forced to ensue anyway. Perhaps all the Elves could have been turned, and would have sailed off in war to Valinor.

The Valar in my opinion meddled overmuch in the doings of the Eldar... and though there was a lot of knowledge and wisdom exchanged, it came at a high price.

[Mithalwen]

Hmm the noble savage theory obviously didn't hold sway....

[Legolas]

Was this folly their forcing the Elves to go to Aman and live with them?

No, I think not...the folly was in allowing them to go on against Morgoth unaided for so long. As soon as they intervened, Morgoth fell quickly.

[the phantom]

They also made a big boo-boo when they let the little lying weasel (Melkor) loose amonst the trusting, open-eared Eldar.

Then again, they were only Ainur.

Yep yep yep.

[Frodo Baggins]

Good point, Phantom. The VAlar made a very serious and rather stupid mistake in letting Morgoth go free once he was caught the first time. Nienna's pity makes her a bit too trusting.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

In the good, old Sil it says (Quenta Silmarillion, Ch.1) that 'cause none of the ainur did fully understand the thought of Iluvatar's children in the music, the ainur didn't dare to add anything to them. And if the ainur used their forces in their affairs with elves and men to give a lesson to them, there was seldom any good consequences (even if they ment well).

So maybe they could had avoided the Silmaril bickering and the kinslaying but there might have come other jewels to fight over and other differences of opinions that would have ended bloodily.

[Alda]

"And this [the sending of the Istari] the Valar did, desiring to ammend the errors of old, especially that they had attmepted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed"

It certainly seems like they are admitting that their over-protective act of bringing the Eldar to Valinor was rife with folly. Although I know they did it out of love like a parent might.

I often wonder why the Valar didn't forsee some of the problems that would arise by recognizing them in the different themes in the music.

[Frodo Baggins]

I was reding Loast Tales yesterday (what a confusing book!) and came across a few things interesting things.

After Melko comes to the dwellings of the Noldor during the festival, kills their guards and takes thir treasure, and the Noldor come to Manwe for help, and Amnwe says something to the effect of "This is all your fault becuase you had dealing with Melko." the account reads:

And the embassy was abashed and afraid and went back unto Sirnumen utterly cast down; yet was Manwe's heart heavier than theirs, for things had gone ill indeed, and yet he foresaw that worse would be; and so did the destinies of the gods work out, for lo! to the Noldoli Manwe's workds seemed cold and heartless, and they knew not his sorrow and his tenderness; and Manwe thought them strangely changed and turned to covetice, who longed but for comfort, being like children very full of the loss of their fair things.

After this, the elves (at least the Noldor) saw Valinor as a prison, which the lies of Melko did not help. Feanor goes to Manwe and asks to leave Aman, but Manwe forbids him, and of course, Feanor gets angry. Manwe knew that men would be arriving soon and he feard that the elves would do harm to them, and also tells Feanor of the dangers of the world. Feanor then says

Or what is this talk of the dangers of the world? A trick to decieve us; a amsk of words! O all ye children of the Noldoli, whomso will no longer be house-thralls of the gods however softly held, arise I bid ye and get you from Valinor, for now is the hour come and the world awaits.

Harsh and hasty words indeed, but perhaps with a grain of truth. The Valar seem to think that the elves are incapable of looking after themselves, or would rather have them as playthings than on their own in the world, or perhaps some of both.

[Maédhros]

Good point, Phantom. The Valar made a very serious and rather stupid mistake in letting Morgoth go free once he was caught the first time. Nienna's pity makes her a bit too trusting.

I have to totally disagree with this.
From Ósanwe-kenta

Who among the Eldar hold that the captivity of Melkor in Mandos (which was achieved by force) was either unwise or unlawful? Yet the resolve to assault Melkor, not merely to withstand him, to meet violence with wrath to the peril of Arda, was taken by Manwë only with reluctance. And consider: what good in this case did even the lawful use of force accomplish? It removed him for a while and relieved Middle-earth from the pressure of his malice, but it did not uproot his evil, for it could not do so. Unless, maybe, Melkor had indeed repented. But he did not repent, and in humiliation he became more obdurate: more subtle in his deceits, more cunning in his lies, crueller and more dastardly in his revenge. The weakest and most imprudent of all the actions of Manwë, as it seems to many, was the release of Melkor from captivity. From this came the greatest loss and harm: the death of the Trees, and the exile and the anguish of the Noldor. Yet through this suffering there came also, as maybe in no other way could it have come, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor.
Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwë. If Manwë had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force. Would we then have the sorrows that indeed befell; or would we have the Elder King lose his honour, and so pass, maybe, to a world rent between two proud lords striving for the throne? Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough.

[Glofin]

An interesting thread for sure. However I see it going in the direction of why did the Valar unchain Melkor in the first place. If we kept going in that direction we would arrive at the very question "Why is there evil at all?"

It is my personal opinion (rather correct or otherwise) that the Valar should not have tried to prevent the elves from going after Morgoth to avenge Finwë and retake the Silmarills. For time and time again, with both Gondolin and Nargothrond, the doom of the Noldor, the curse, which Mandos set, worked great woe.

Had not the Valar barred the way to the elves, there might not have been the kinslaying, had there not been the kinslaying there would not have been the curse of Mandos.

I hold that the Noldor were right to go after Morgoth, for he had done great hurt to both the Noldor and to Valinor. I think the Valar should have aided him.

Glofin

[the phantom]

The release was according to the promise of Manwë. If Manwë had broken this promise for his own purposes...

Denying Melkor's release after promising it would indeed be wrong. They should never have given Melkor any sort of promise of getting out at all.

the doom of the Noldor, the curse, which Mandos set, worked great woe

Indeed. I sometimes wonder if the feat that Feanor was attempting (overthrowing Morgoth) was possible but could not happen because the Valar doomed it. When the Union of Maedhros attacked Angband remember how close they were to winning?

From the Sil-

...they burst through the Gate and slew the guards upon the very stairs of Angband, and Morgoth trembled upon his deep throne...

...Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied...

Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth had achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

As you can see, Morgoth was scared, he used up every last fighter he had, and all his guys weren't enough without some of the Men who joined him. And just think- the good guys had almost zero help from Nargothrond and Doriath, two major forces.

We also know that Morgoth was accessible since Beren and Luthien managed to get into his throne room. If the good guys kill all the baddies on the field of battle and Angband was emptied, who's left to defend Morgoth?

Maybe he had a Balrog bodyguard or two? Doesn't really matter since we know elves can kill Balrogs.

Yeah sure, the messenger told Feanor "Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art."

I've always thought that was questionable (as Feanor did). After that time Elves certainly overcame a few Maia, and Maia are of the same race as the Valar. Why should it be impossible to overcome a Vala then? With help from the other two Elvish realms they beat Morgoth's forces, walk into the throne room, Luthien starts singing him a lullaby, and then they tie him in chains and carry him out on a huge stretcher (Luthien singing the whole time) and stick him on a boat back to Valinor where the Valar stick him in prison.

I think the deed was possible if not for the Valar going and dooming that the deed wasn't possible. It makes me think they didn't want the Noldor to succeed. Oh no, those evil Noldor (sarcasm) had to pay for their crime (which likely wouldn't have happened if not for the bungling of the Valar).

So did they doom their effort because they didn't want them to defeat a Vala because it would hit home the fact that they, the Valar, weren't all that far above the Elves (I remember a quote that said they were supposed to be teachers and leaders of Elves, not their Kings and Queens).

Hoo boy. Can't wait to see responses to this post. What can I say? I'm feeling feisty today.

[Frodo Baggins]

Oh well said Glofin! a lot of awful things might have been avoided if the Manwe and the rest had just let the elves go when they wanted to. I read somewhere in LT that Manwe knew that the elves, being children of the world, wold have to return sometime, he should have let them be.

As for Phantom, you have many good points. The elves got closer on several occasions to busting Morgoth than the Valar did. The Valar finally helped after Earendil begged them to help. Had the Valar perhaps aided the elves in tracking down Morgoth in the beginning, they could have snatched him before hid fortress became impenetrable perhaps. I like your idea of catching Morgoth, phantom, very ingenious.

[Maédhros]

Denying Melkor's release after promising it would indeed be wrong. They should never have given Melkor any sort of promise of getting out at all.

Again, I have to totally disagree with this.
From Ósanwe-kenta

Manwë could not by duress attempt to compel Melkor to reveal his thought and purposes, or (if he used words) to speak the truth. If he spoke and said: this is true, he must be believed until proved false; if he said: this I will do, as you bid, he must be allowed the opportunity to fulfill his promise.
The force and restraint that were used upon Melkor by the united power of all the Valar, were not used to extort confession (which was needless); nor to compel him to reveal his thought (which was unlawful, even if not vain). He was made captive as a punishment for his evil deeds, under the authority of the King. So we may say; but it were better said that he was deprived for a term, fixed by promise, of his power to act, so that he might halt and consider himself, and have thus the only chance that mercy could contrive of repentance and amendment. For the healing of Arda indeed, but for his own healing also. Melkor had the right to exist, and the right to act and use his powers. Manwe had the authority to rule and to order the world, so far as he could, for the well-being of the Eruhíni; but if Melkor would repent and return to the allegiance of Eru, he must be given his freedom again. He could not be enslaved, or denied his part. The office of the Elder King was to retain all his subjects in the allegiance of Eru, or to bring them back to it, and in that allegiance to leave them free.