Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
07-22-2004, 07:15 AM | #1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
|
A Probably too Sympathetic View of Gríma
You guys think that it's a valid point, no matter how unlikely, that Gríma was just as such under Saruman's control as Théoden was, and so wasn't really bad at all?
__________________
Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. |
07-22-2004, 07:18 AM | #2 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
|
Possibly. Theoden did not commit acts as evil as Grima did commit, but then Theoden was much stronger than Grima (as well as being 'further away' from Saruman).
Though, would a good person have been swayed so much by Saruman? Was not Grima already wicked?
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
07-22-2004, 03:45 PM | #3 |
Shadow of Starlight
|
Selfishness?
It could be that Grima, like all men, was simply weak, and that the power of trhe ring was too much for him - the temptation of everything it could promise, especially when times were hard and uncertain for men. Another arguement in Grima's favour could be that he had seen Saruman's power at work on Theoden - he may have been in fear of it, as he had seen it at very close quarters, and so was in no doubt of what it could do and to what extent.
However, I don't think this is the whole story: mainly, Grima was probably just out for what he could get - and he didn't really care for what got in his way. I don't think this can merely be attributed to the 'weakness of men' which is mentioned so often by the elves - this is something much closer to home. Mainly, I think Grima was just too selfish - unlike the other Men in the story, he didn't resist the ring, he was working with it. But when things stopped going his way, he pleaded that he had merely been under it's power, asking that the Kings would take him in - basically, he would have changed his allegiance in a second. He was always, it seems to me, just out for what he could get.
__________________
I am what I was, a harmless little devil |
07-23-2004, 10:18 AM | #4 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 92
|
This is my view of what Wormtongue's work was.
He was to feed Theoden some poison-like things that kept him weak and frail(I was rather skeptical about the poisonous drugs, but Tolkien confirmed this in one of his letters). Like any other old men feeling "old", Theoden would then not be willing to take care of all the small matters of his kingdom, being tired. Wormtongue knew this, and so approached the king with sweet words. Most people like words that praise you, however false it may be. Wormtongue probably did do some things of service, at first, to gain Theoden's trust. He then used his men to keep all reports of happenings from reaching Theoden, or twisting them with his own little lies. He sent news of what was happening to Saruman. Then, he told Theoden that Eomer was plotting against Theodred for heirship(confirmed in Unfinished Tales). Theoden, not knowing any better and trusting Wormtongue too much, would have believed this. Grima would've kept a lot of Eomer's victories secret from Theoden, or belittled them while exaggerating his defeats. Gandalf then came and exposed Theoden to the outer air, making him realise that he was not as old and weak as Grima made him out to be. Wormtnogue did seem rather overprotective, didn't he? Gandalf helped Theoden realise that things were not as bad as they seemed under Wormtongue's lies. Notice how Theoden didn't really turn on Grima as suddenly as in the film. He still couldn't shake off his years of trust for Grima. So he gave Wormtongue a chance of aiding him, which Wormtongue denied. Even so, Theoden remarks that he misses Grima later on. So, to answer your question, Theoden was manipulated by Wormtongue. Wormtongue was acting of his own free will, and as Gandalf points out, his reward was to be Eowyn. Saruman did not manipulate him, but rather promised him rewards. And Theoden was never under Saruman's "control", not in the books. There is no exorcism in the books, but rather wise words by Gandalf. |
07-25-2004, 03:03 AM | #5 |
Mischievous Candle
|
I think that Grima didn't appreciate honour nor sincerity but was very fascinated by power and was eager to rule. That doesn't instantly make him a bad person but yet too easily seduced by slight chances to rise in rank. To Saruman that kind of people would have been too easy to brainwash. Saruman used Grima to gain his own goals but I tend to think that Grima acted willingly and knowing the cosequences.
In the book, after Isengard had been defeated and Saruman and Grima were just two vagabonds, Grima told that he hated Saruman and yet he didn't leave him. He didn't know how to live without his master anymore for sure a wizard had been a mighty ally before things started to go bad for them. So, to the question: basically yes, that's possible.
__________________
Fenris Wolf
|
07-25-2004, 07:34 PM | #6 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
I think Grima just started out as someone who saw an advantage allying himself with the stroger power of Saruman, and then he was in it for himself - how can I best profit from the situation. I did not think that Grima was evil to start with, he was just corrupted by power and greed. When he had been turned out of Edoras and returned to Saruman, his will was all but broken and at this point he became a creature of Saruman, yet retaining enough of his personality to regail against the treatment he endured but not strong enough to escape.
|
07-25-2004, 08:21 PM | #7 |
A Shade of Westernesse
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 515
|
Wormtongue is an interesting character, in that he is unlike most other evil beings in Middle-earth. He is not desirous of omnipotence, as are Melkor, Sauron and Saruman. He was not forcibly subverted to the will of a powerful evil being, like the orcs were. He is more like Sharkey's ruffians, Sauron's mercernaries and even Melkor's Balrogs, in that he is corrupted (not by torture, like the orcs, but by persuasion and false promises) to the service of a true evil, and is mainly in it for personal gain. I think Tolkien saw a distinction between characters like Master Wormtongue and the 'greater' evils. Grima, I think, was still capable of repentance, and he did repent, to an extent, in killing Saruman. I do not think he was ever wholly 'fallen', and I do not see why he could not have loved Eowyn. He may have lusted after her, but lust does not necessarily supersede true affection. Perhaps he was greatly conflicted: wanting her for himself, wanting her to be happy, and being ensnared by Saruman, from whose scheme he could no longer escape and, being corrupt, no longer had a will to try. Sounds like quite a sad predicament.
|
07-25-2004, 08:38 PM | #8 |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
|
There seems to be a lot of Grima threads these days...
The act of Grima killing Saruman in The Scouring of the Shire is rather ambiguous. It could be that he already had the will to be free from the evil in which he had been ensnared by Saruman, and killed him so that he could be altogether released from his bondage to evil. But on the other hand, he could be tired of being Saruman's underdog and killed him so he could be his own master, possibly not aware of the fact that he could be killed by the hobbits in doing so. It was probably the first idea that moved him to kill Saruman. Frodo was offering him a way out, and he probably felt he could not accept that way with Saruman still around. Then again, seeing that he tried to run away after killing him, it could be the latter idea. All the same, his death was grievous, for while he is yet alive there is a chance for him to finally turn his back from evil. |
07-26-2004, 11:15 AM | #9 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
|
Quote:
Yes, it's probably too sympathetic (although the sneaky guy has permeated my mind and I've corrupted my friend as well into thinking he's awesome... man, he does his job well!) but he's such a fun character to analyze. I like Gorthaur_Cruel's take on him. Somehow I've come to think that he had a really lousy childhood (it's the Freud in me speaking!) and has just grown up quite bitter towards everyone. He probably fell victim to Saruman, a) because the wizard was noted to have great powers of persuasion and an enchanting voice, and b) because he was promised wealth and the woman he desired (I won't go into the love/lust bit here!). As others have already stated, Men are generally weak and power-hungry, and while I don't think that Grima wanted to be king of Rohan or anything (although he was as good as king for some time), it's likely that he wouldn't mind having a bit of influence and power for himself. |
|
07-26-2004, 01:11 PM | #10 | ||
Animated Skeleton
|
Um, I have some questions about some of the answers, sorry...
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so." |
||
07-26-2004, 05:01 PM | #11 | |
A Shade of Westernesse
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 515
|
Quote:
|
|
07-27-2004, 08:45 AM | #12 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
|
Quote:
Come on, have we learned nothing of pity or mercy from reading Tolkien?
__________________
Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. |
|
07-27-2004, 05:02 PM | #13 |
Laconic Loreman
|
Maia and...
Rebels, Elianna you got it down I just felt like adding the rebel part lol.
|
07-27-2004, 05:18 PM | #14 |
Animated Skeleton
|
But are there other examples of repentance in Tolkien? Mercy/pity yes...but whole-hearted repentance? In the Silmarillion Maeglin was supposed to have repented the ways of his father and all but in the end he wound up betraying Gondolin to Morgoth making him if anything worse than the dark elf Eol.
__________________
"One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so." |
07-27-2004, 08:03 PM | #15 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
|
I can't really think of anything offhand, except for maybe the Dead Men of Dunharrow, since originally they refused to aid Gondor and then they realized that the only way to end their curse was to help Gondor out in the war. However, I don't think this is really repentance, just a means to finally get to rest.
Since I can't think of any example of true repentance, I'm just going to say that even though Grima didn't truly repent, per se, he and most others who have been corrupted had the potential to repent. I think that his killing of Saruman showed that he wasn't entirely evil, as has been suggested by a few. |
07-27-2004, 09:38 PM | #16 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Hmmmmmmm
Interesting. I like this idea. I still think he's evil, by all means but I think that's a good idea. Nice thinking.
|
07-27-2004, 10:08 PM | #17 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
|
Originally posted by Encataire:
"I can't think of any example of true repentance" ___________________ Maedhros several times shows specific instances of repentence, but granted can't go the whole nine yards because of his slavish adherence to his oath. Grima at the end seems to really be sick of being a bad guy and what he's done and may wish to repent, which makes the last evil deed of Saruman all the worse. " 'Wormtongue!' called Frodo. 'You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.' Wormtongue halted and looked back at him, half prepared to stay. Saruman turned. 'No evil?' he cackled."..... |
07-28-2004, 08:55 PM | #18 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
|
Exactly, the examples of Maedhros and Grima are pretty much what I was talking about. They may want to repent, and they may show signs of this desire, but they don't follow through with it all the way.
Yeah, Saruman was quite evil to poor Grima there... Last edited by Encaitare; 03-13-2005 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Oh, horror of horrors! Nearly eight months later I realize I spelled Maedhros wrong! |
03-13-2005, 09:06 PM | #19 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
|
Some other things in Gríma's defense
Saruman says he goes out and looks at the stars. "Even when he sneaks out at night it is only to look at the stars." Hmmm, looking at the stars...what a very Elvish thing to do. Surely, with the Elves being so famously enthralled by the stars, Tolkien wouldn't have said this about Gríma without cause, or something behind it.
The other thing is actually nothing to do with the book, but the movie. Look at Gríma's knife. Leaf shaped blade, a very graceful looking weapon. Fits the movie's motifs of Elvish blades.
__________________
Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. |
03-13-2005, 10:04 PM | #20 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
|
I got the impression that Saruman was saying that sarcastically:
Quote:
|
|
03-14-2005, 05:32 AM | #21 | ||
Laconic Loreman
|
Quote:
In Anglo-Norman mythology there was this "Law of Compensation." A person committed a wrong act, and he must do certain things in order to regain his repentance... 1. He must tell all his sins. This was believed that if someone truly wanted to "repent" then he must spill out his sins, not just ask for forgiveness. 2. He must ask for repentance. 3. He must pay gold, or he could sacrifice his life. Looking at Boromir's final days he does all this. After he tries to take the Ring from Frodo, and ruin all, we have him at the end with Aragorn... 1. Tell his sins- "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said. 2. Repentance- "I am Sorry. I have paid. 3. One could pay gold to "compensate" for their sins, but since I doubt Boromir has any gold, he does the other thing that was believed would "compensate" yourself Sacrificing your life- He does so to attempt to save Merry and Pippin. The final stage is the priest/holy man must declare the man's acts as forgiven. Aragorn, a symbol of this does so. Quote:
|
||
03-14-2005, 05:55 AM | #22 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
|
Well said, RepentedOne88. I stand corrected.
|
03-14-2005, 06:50 PM | #23 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
|
Eh, I figured that Saruman was agreeing with Frodo at first, basically saying, "Yeah, you're right, Worm's harmless. But there was that time with Lotho..."
Oh well, if Encaitare is the one shooting down my ideas, might as well give up. I'll go to my dark corner and play with my masks now... Good show about Boromir, Boromir88, by the way.
__________________
Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. |
03-14-2005, 10:00 PM | #24 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
|
Heh, sorry, Eli. Doesn't mean I love Grima any less -- and definitely don't give up if you have something more to say!
|
03-15-2005, 04:42 AM | #25 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
|
I put it to you that Grima is one of the most Evil characters in the WHOLE trilogy.
HE shows no loyalty to ANYONE. He is out totally for personal gain throughout the book. He looks after number one to the detriment of everything else. He conspires to ruin Theoden because he sees that Saruman is the person in strength, and would probably therefore win. But this doesn't mean Grima's ready to stay loyal to Saruman when he realises the wizard may be beaten. i.e. when confronted by the witch king (in unfinished tales) he is quick to betray Saruman. Also, when realising that Saruman is finished in the Shire he also shows betrayal by killing Saruman himself. When offered the chance of redemption by Frodo he does not take it. He cannot see any gain from staying with the hobbits. Indeed, in the Evilness of his character he probably doesn't realise that frodo's plea is truthful. When you are that evil, you may not believe another character can be that merciful. I say he thought this was a trick by the hobbit to capture him, and he decided to take his own chances by running. Fair point from Elianna Quote:
|
|
03-15-2005, 05:37 AM | #26 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
|
My take on Grima.
This is a really interesting thread! I’ve had quite a few thoughts about the nature of Grima lately, and I’ll be interested to hear what other ‘Downers might think, so here goes… Who is he? His role is something of a ‘clerk’ or adviser, and we must assume that even in Rohan such people were needed to ensure the smooth running of the country. The king would no doubt have gathered tithes, or else had to ensure that some system of ‘military service’ (is this more properly termed ‘tribute’?) was running within his country. Rohan seems to be based on models of Anglo Saxon society, where personal advisers to the monarch would most likely be drawn from nobility or military. Grima is not a military man, so we must assume he is from the nobility if he is to have gained such privileged access to his King. There is textual evidence that Grima is a man of Rohan, and that he had some status to begin with, as his lineage is named. The question is, would it be considered higher status in Rohan to be a horseman or to be a ‘clerk’? If the former, then Grima may have ended up in such a post either through superior intelligence or because he was not strong or skilled enough to excel as a horseman. Either of these would have a bearing on his personality. If it was that he was intelligent then he may have thought himself somewhat ‘apart’ from people such as Hama. And a further thought to add to this is that Tolkien seems to have been showing how Saruman’s thirst for greater knowledge led him into foolish deeds (e.g. overuse of the palantir), so it would be interesting if Grima’s ‘fall’ was due to the same reason. If, however, Grima ended up as a ‘clerk’ due to his lack of physical prowess, then he could have wished to prove his power in other ways, as he may have experienced resentment or even a feeling of inadequacy in comparison to the cultural ‘norm’ of Rohan, and sought to be ‘special’ in other ways. So why was Grima vulnerable to the influence of Saruman? I think that Saruman may have been looking for a way of influencing the king and if Grima was already vulnerable by feeling his potential status had been belittled in some way, then he would be more likely to listen to someone like Saruman who may have had all manner of ideas about how he could ‘climb’ the power ladder in Edoras. It is something that those of us who work can see every day in office politics; there are those who seek status simply for its own sake and who play the game to perfection. I think this is what Grima did. You can see that other men do not like or trust him, and he works by ‘eliminating’ his competition e.g. Eomer, by getting the ‘boss’ to deal harshly with such people. When Gandalf compares Grima to a serpent then draws a good comparison, as the man has achieved his success by clever and crafty use of politics; his actions have not been for the good of Rohan, but for his own good. In the circles which surround our leaders such figures are unfortunately common, and I remember reading in Tolkien’s Letters of how he didn’t like ‘officials’, so the notion of Grima as a corrupt, self-serving official could well be a good one. How did Grima work on Theoden? I think he made great use of negative talk, influencing the king through looking on the doubtful, pessimistic side of everything. Theoden is worn down by the words of Grima; hearing such negative words each day, eventually Theoden would come to expect the worst and to hear positive words would seem somehow wrong. Of course, to gain the king’s ear in the first place, Grima will have had to begin by telling the king precisely what he wanted to hear. This kind of talk is shown by Saruman himself, who uses flattery at Orthanc in his attempt to win round the group who are listening to him. I think that there is no actual magic as we might perceive it involved in the gradual decline of Theoden. Rather, I think that Grima has learned from Saruman exactly how to talk to and deal with the king. So the ‘poison’ is very much Saruman’s, but the vessel is definitely Grima. As to whether he ever repents, it is not clear that he does, even the act of killing Saruman is rather an act of desperation than an attempt to put right what his master has done. Grima has been left with little choice, he cannot go back to his privileged position in Rohan (especially since he made an enemy of the new king or ‘boss’), and Saruman, who promised to be powerful, is now reduced to petty crime himself. Grima sought status and now he has none, nor any chance of ever gaining any, he is at the bottom of the social heap and so has little to lose when he acts out of a sense of vengeance. Is he redeemed in any way? He is certainly brought low, so in that sense he can be said to have been punished, as he ends up with quite the opposite of what he sought in life. But is this reason enough? Does he ever admit to his lust for power, and does he have to do that in order to repent? About Grima and Eowyn, I think that something of the timescale must be taken into account here. We don’t know how old Grima is, nor do we know how long he has been Theoden’s adviser, but we could assume that it has been some time, and so the promise of Eowyn might not have been made from the outset. I like to think not, as Eowyn is still a very young woman! Maybe the promise of Eowyn was made as she grew to adulthood, as a way of keeping or maintaining Grima’s loyalty to Saruman; he could have told Grima that if he kept up his work, then he would be able to ask for and successfully gain the hand of Eowyn. And what of Grima’s interest in her? We can’t assume it was either love or lust that he felt; it could have simply been due to the fact that she was the highest status woman in Rohan that he sought her hand. She would have been his ‘trophy wife’, and to be married to her would have brought him even closer to the centre of power in that country. I think Grima shows us that it is not just Rings of Power or Silmarils or Palantiri which can corrupt, that other, more intangible desires can have a detrimental effect. This is quite clever, as we know that the downfall of Numenor was due to similar intangible desires in the hearts of Men, or, we know this if we have read the Silmarillion; to include this idea in the form of Grima makes for good writing as it gives us a glimpse into another aspect of how Men can fail. Also, it might be interesting to compare Grima and Gollum. Which is the more evil of these two? Surely Gollum has been unwittingly corrupted only by desire for a ‘magical object’? Can we blame him for that? He is the more damaged of the two, certainly, and the one most beyond salvation, but is he more evil? I'll stop here, I've gone on quite long enough!
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
03-15-2005, 09:42 PM | #27 | ||
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-17-2005, 04:15 AM | #28 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
|
I'm quite skeptical about spells in Gríma's case - I don't think he was under Saruman's spell. That thought just makes him a victim too. (In a way he was - but not this way.)
Really, Gríma served Saruman because of his own will and later because he had no other choice really. This is the way I understand him; he became "evil" because of his human greed and desire for power. He's a human character after all. A victim of his weakness. I pity him as I pity Gollum.
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
|
03-17-2005, 06:04 AM | #29 | |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
|
Quote:
|
|
03-17-2005, 04:53 PM | #30 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
|
Re
Quote:
Saruman was capable of exerting his presence and weakening their wills ... and speeding along his orcs, probably in the same way that Gandalf did the complete opposite, strengthening the wills of men, and intimidating orcs with no more than sheer will (you saw this more when he became "White", naturally). So, if Saruman were to bend that focus onto one man, Theoden (who he could presumably monitor using his Palantir, which is what the movie logically came up with as the tool of the "sorcery" involved) then he may very well have been applying just a bit of pressure on Theoden. I don't think he could literally possess the mind of any man ... but weakening wills seemed to be right up his alley, and with Wormtongue giving logical explanations and manipulating events so that Theoden simply thought he was growing older and wearier ... it seems like this 'spell' (it wasn't really a spell) could have worked. Saruman's 'menace' was a viable part of Theoden's weakness. Between that shadow of fear, and force of will, Wormtongue's meddling and bad times, Theoden was subdued. Anyway, Grima son of Galmod was Rohirric, he was devious, manipulative and crafty from the beginning ... and Saruman knew exactly how to play him. It wouldn't take much to see that Wormtongue had a fancy for Eowyn ... Saruman could have used that. Also, as a scrawny, weaker man growing up among tough, militaristic, athletic lads like Theodred and Eomer, Wormtongue probably was a bit of an outcast in youth, that would explain why he felt like he should turn on his own people ... it's likely Theodred and Eomer weren't especially kind to him, even in youth ... and he was getting a little payback.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling |
|
03-18-2005, 01:21 AM | #31 | |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
|
Quote:
I expect his love for Eowyn was at first genuine, and had he remained true, could even have ended happily. Eowyn ends up with a man who, although he may be a great fighter, far prefers reading and scholarship; an enlightened prince and not a mere hero of battle. Heresy though this may be, you can't deny that, but for Grima's dreadful faults of character and cowardice, he and Faramir might have quite a few similarities. Embittered and suspected by the King's tanists, Grima would have sought the company of the White Wizard. Saruman would have been sympathetic...would know everything at once...and Grima would be lost in his wise counsel.
__________________
Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
|
03-18-2005, 05:56 PM | #32 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
|
Quote:
Faramir of course gets his chance for 'redemption' of sorts by rejecting the ring, but Grima refuses to be redeemed in any way. Faramir does not suffer from an excess of pride, but Grima does, and it is this which brings him so low, literally, by the end of his life.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
|
03-19-2005, 01:41 AM | #33 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
|
Excellent comparison, Lalwende. And of course, Faramir had several advantages over Grima by virtue of his birth. He was a Numenorean of the highest blood, handsome and tall, and in a culture where it was thought perfectly acceptable to be a master of lore rather than weapons. When pushed to it, he was also a natural leader-a better one, as far as we can tell, than his brother-and physically strong enough to fight for his country. And as the son of the Steward he was already at the centre of power-and, critically, learned to be wary of power, knowing it had led to his mother's waning.
Grima did not even conform to the physical standards of Rohan, with his dark hair. He was born into a minor warrior nobility, where war and the practice of arms was everything. He was as far from power as possible, armed with only his wits. The urge to get there, to beat the great fighters, must have been his driving force throughout his early life. And not an unadmirable one. For though he always sought to serve himself, in the beginning he meant to do so by serving King and country as best he could. He was no good in battle-why not a spot of administration? But in the end his pride would take him into murkier waters.
__________________
Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
03-19-2005, 07:27 AM | #34 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
|
For another example of how Faramir and Gríma are similar, and the differences in that, check this out: Wizards' Pupils
__________________
Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. |
03-19-2005, 07:55 AM | #35 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
|
Back to something Keeper of Dol Guldur said
Quote:
__________________
“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” |
|
03-19-2005, 04:47 PM | #36 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
|
Quote:
Here's an interesting tid-bit about Gríma: Only he himself and Théoden (only when he's still not completely healed) call him just plain "Gríma" and not Wormtongue. Not even in the narration is he called Gríma. Always Wormtongue.
__________________
Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. |
|
03-24-2005, 01:55 PM | #37 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
|
Re:
The Palantir were used to communicate with each other, but Gandalf talked about using them to see things in the past, like the workings of the mind of Feanor, and seeing
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But Saruman could crush wills anyway ... his voice ... his essence.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling |
|||
03-27-2005, 04:34 AM | #38 | |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Troll's larder
Posts: 195
|
Grima the Cannibal
I don't know how to describe this...
Quote:
__________________
'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.' |
|
03-27-2005, 09:07 AM | #39 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
|
Quote:
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
|
03-27-2005, 03:40 PM | #40 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
|
Saruman is also punning on calling Gríma Worm, saying that he now even eats the dead.
I'm with Lalwendë: Saruman, I think, here is being sarcastic (thought as I've said before the first part, about him watching the stars, is not sarcastic).
__________________
Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. |
|
|