Cellar Door

[Lalaith]

I was watching Donnie Darko last night and spotted a subtle and rather nice Tolkien reference.
When the English teacher played by Drew Barrymore is sacked from her job at the dodgy private school, she writes "Cellar Door" on the blackboard as a farewell message for her students. Because, as she explains to Donnie, "a famous linguist once said that of all the phrases in the English language, of all the endless combinations of words, that 'Cellar Door' was the most beautiful."

That linguist was of course our Professor.

(PS Dear Mr Saucepan - I wasn't sure where to put this so please move if you think I've got the wrong forum)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm neither Mr. nor Saucepan, but I think this can go on the Novices and Newcomers forum, since it's not a reference to the LotR movies. It should get more response there too!

[Rimbaud]

One of my favourite films already, and I also noticed the reference. Sadly, those with me at the time of this realisation singularly failed to grasp my enthusiasm.

[mark12_30]

Thanks for bringing this up.

I'm not sure I enjoy the phrase "cellar door" as much as Tolkien did, but I'm glad he talked about it. I wonder is there a recording of him uttering these lovely words? (Once more, with feeling... Cellar Door!")

I'm particularly fond of "Coffeeroom" backwards, which is "Mooreeffoc", referring to the idea that sometimes things seen through a glass or in a mirror are momentarily more real, or at least having more of an impact on our thoughts, than the way in which we see it normally.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I feel somewhat out of place on this thread, not having actually seen Donnie Darko (yet! I promise I will.), but could somebody please explain to me the significance of the phrase "cellar door"? I mean, if you forget the meaning and concentrate on sound alone, it does have a rather nice ring to it, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the point or not... Please...

Fea

Donnie Darko my favorite sci-fi/nuerosis film. The "Cellar Door" quote has been attributed to several linguists, but most often Tolkein, so that is what I go with. In reading TLOTR (obviously before before reading any of the pronounciation material in the appendix) when I got to Lothlorien and met Celeborn (also Celebrien, Celebrant, etc...) my natural english pronounciation of the soft "Ce" made a light bulb go off in my head, Celeborn sounds just like Cellar Door. I was very proud of my self for making that connection...

...Then I read the pronounciation stuff and saw the movie...and realized the general consensus is that Celeborn and similar names are pronounced with a hard C like "Keleborn" similar to the word Celtic (although some pronounce it "Seltic" i.e. The Boston Celtics).

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
-Mirabella

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The 'Cellar Door' scene was the only remotely interesting part of the film for me. About a year later I read about Tolkien and saw where it came from.

I do agree with him, the two words make a lovely sound.


(In case anyone wants to defend the film from me, pm me because this thread is not the place to discuss Donnie Darko.)

[davem]

Can I be the first to mention Ursula le Guin's (intentional) 'tribute', naming one of the Islands of Earthsea, the one furthest west, 'Selidor'.

[piosenniel]

Thought you might like to see this:

The basic pleasure in the phonetic elements of a language and in the style of their patterns, and then in a higher dimension, pleasure in the association of these word-forms with meanings, is of fundamental importance. This pleasure is quite distinct from the practical knowledge of a language, and not the same as an analytic understanding of its structure. It is simpler, deeper-rooted, and yet more immediate than the enjoyment of literature. Thought it may be allied to some of the elements in the appreciation of verse, it does not need any poets, other than the nameless artists who composed the language. It can be strongly felt in the simple contemplation of vocabulary, or even in a string of names. ...Most English-speaking people, for instance, will admit that *cellar door* is 'beautiful,' especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful that, say, *sky*, and far more beautiful than *beautiful*, Well then, in Welsh, for me *cellar doors* are extraordinarily frequent, and moving to the higher dimension, the words in which there is pleasure in the contemplation of the association of form and sense are abundant.

-- J.R.R. Tolkien "English and Welsh" (lecture, 10/21/55) published in - Angles and Britons: O'Donnell Lectures (1963) and reprinted in: The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays(1983) by J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Christopher Tolkien

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Now, what interests me is exactly why he considered "cellar door" to be such an illustrious phrase. It does sound quite nice, but I think we must consider the accent he was accustomed to - "cellar door" sounds much better to me as an Englishman would say it than with American pronuciation!

But how did he choose the phrase as an example? I don't suppose we'll ever know, really... and it would be hard to think of a particularly beatiful-sounding word or combination off the top of one's head. Yet I still wonder if there's some sort of a history to his choice.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

sounds much better to me as an Englishman would say it than with American pronuciation

Perhaps that's my problem... I find the only down side of being American is the "Americanization" of the English language. "I don't speak English, I speak American." Well, I say revert to English... it's a prettier language than the garble most people consider speech around here. That and MacDonalds... can't go anywhere without seeing gigantic, mustard yellow, arches glaring at me. But back to my point; how exactly would 'cellar door' be pronounced in English English? I didn't realize it would have that much difference...

Fea

[The Saucepan Man]

Well then, in Welsh, for me *cellar doors* are extraordinarily frequent ...

But wouldn't "cellar door" in Welsh (and indeed Elvish) be pronounced Kellar Door? Hmm, Celedor - a relative of Celeborn, perhaps?

That and MacDonalds... can't go anywhere without seeing gigantic, mustard yellow, arches glaring at me.

Alas, I think that you'll find that's the same the world over these days.

Well, I say revert to English... it's a prettier language than the garble most people consider speech around here.

Well you know what they say - the Americans and the English: a people divided by a common language.

OK, first lesson:

Garbage = Rubbish
Hood = Bonnet
Color = Colour
Sidewalk = Pavement
Apartment = Flat
Movie = Film
Theatre = Cinema

...

Hehe, I could go on for ever ...

[Lalaith]

Saucepan Man, I think Tolkien used "cellar door" there to describe a kind of generic moment of aural appreciation, and he meant that Welsh was full of those kind of 'moments'.
I rarely hear Welsh spoken, but I do love the accent. The English are generally rather snooty and unkind about the Welsh so I'm glad Tolkien sticks up for them.

Rimbaud - hehe, I know what you mean, I got all excited as soon as I saw the words 'cellar door' written on the blackboard...
Mirabella, I too spent some years thinking "seleborn" and "selebrian" to myself, when I read the books. I still find the hard C difficult to remember, particularly "kelebrian" which sounds a bit masculine to me.

[Lalaith]

Oh, and I did actually think of the Barrowdowns while watching the film, even before the 'cellar door' reference...when the school bans the Graham Greene story, I thought of the poor kids on here whose schools censor Tolkien, Harry Potter etc.

[The Saucepan Man]

Saucepan Man, I think Tolkien used "cellar door" there to describe a kind of generic moment of aural appreciation, and he meant that Welsh was full of those kind of 'moments'.

Doh! Sometimes I think that my attempts at (so-called) humour are entirely unsuitable for the internet format, smilies or no smilies. Sorry Lalaith, I did follow Tolkien's reasoning, but was just being impertinent.

The English are generally rather snooty and unkind about the Welsh so I'm glad Tolkien sticks up for them.

As someone with Welsh blood, and despite taking great pride in England, my country of birth, I'm with the Professor on that one.

[Lalaith]

*bows* No, it was me being slow on the uptake. Late night last night, you understand.

[mark12_30]

OK, so Kellar Dewar was Tolkien's favorite "sound". More or less.

So what's yours? What is the word or phrase that you think is prettiest of all? And if you had to invent a language around it, what kind of people would speak the language, and what kind of mythology would they have? Are there any sounds you would leave out entirely? Why?

I'm sure we'll all do this anyway, but of course, your answers should be Tolkien-related. Otherwise count this as food-for-thought.

If your favorite word would make a good springboard for a new Middle-Earth race, language, and mythos, how would it fit in?

You are of course free to create your own language, people, and corresponding mythology as Tolkien himself did; naturally, this thread is not the place to do that. May i recommend the "Are you writing serious fantasy" thread, or perhaps lmp's excellent worldbuilding projects in FaerieWordWeavers.

[davem]

I really think Tolkien's pronunciation would have been 'selador'. He did say it was the most beautiful sound in the english language, not in the Elven tongue.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I rarely hear Welsh spoken, but I do love the accent. The English are generally rather snooty and unkind about the Welsh so I'm glad Tolkien sticks up for them.

Of course, the name 'Welsh' is an Anglo-saxon insult (from waelas = 'foreigners'). They call themselves Cymru. It used to be legal until a few centuries back for the English to kill any Welshmen who strayed over the border!(The law has since been repealed.)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

There is a certain sound, that, try as I might, I cannot find a letter configuration to illustrate. At least not in the Americanized English language. Well, I can, but only in some cases. Bare with me for a moment:

In the American pronunciation of the word 'garage' (also 'mirage' and 'massage'), there is a sort of a soft buzz to the end syllable. If you abruptly end the words (as most people do), you are left with a harsh "J" sound. If not, saying the word 'garage' aloud, you should be able to hear what I mean. How can you create a word using that sound in the beginning?

Secondly... a word that I really like is "occasionally." It has all of my favorite sounds in it; sounds that I connect with different races of Middle Earth:

'Occ': The hard 'c' brings to mind the 'k's in Khazad Dum and many other Dwarven words. It is harsh and shocking, not much pleasant to hear or say, but it does grow on you.

'Asion': This I find a little harder to connect to Middle Earth, however it is another way of spelling out my pet sound. As is said further down this thread, the French have spelled it for me! Therefore, this is the word's tie to the Men of Middle Earth. As with Men, my 'j' sound seems to take a little time to develop a fondness for, but as with the hard 'c', it also grows on you.

'Ally': My word's tie to the Elves. The 'l's slur together beautifully, bringing to mind the ringing of small bells. It is a soft and natural sound, with no harshness to it at all.

Occasionally... lovely to say, and has an interesting connexion to Tolkien's work. I'm beginning to grow on "Cellar Door" though... The good professor was right.

Fea

[Lalaith]

Doesn't the sound you're looking for occur as a J or G in French, in words like "Jacques" and "gentil".

[Elennar Starfire]

I rather like the word 'circle' myself.

Here's something to try: Turn on the radio to a news station. Listen for a while, but don't pay any attention to the meaning of the words, just listen to the sound. I once heard a radio program that was in some language I didn't recognise, and I just listened to it though I couldn't understand one word.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

A discussion of everyone's favourite words and sounds would get us way off-topic, I fear.
Please keep your posts on the Tolkien-related original theme of the thread.
Thanks!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

A great English word is 'uvula'. By the way Saucepan, your list of American - English was hilariously suitable for any international discussion.

Despite the Professor's dislike of anything to do with France, I have to stick up for the country and say that French is the most delightful language to listen to.


(edited to add) Sorry Estelyn, I posted right at the same time as you, meaning no disrespect of course. As we're speaking of language I thought here would be as good a place as any to ask why Tolkien, as a linguist, disliked France so much, the land of such a beautiful language.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tangent posters, please read my above post. Any posts that are not Tolkien-related should be edited or deleted by their writers before it becomes necessary for the moderators/administrators to do so - thanks!

[Rimbaud]

As the Sylvia to my Ted is actually an Emily, I am very much familiar with the difficulties in certain trans-Atlantic translations. Neither of us are entirely sure how we respectively used to pronounce the word 'garage'.

I am also a 'devotee' of the afore-mentioned French 'j' sound for instance as occasioned by the vocalisation of 'occasionally'; this sound in phonetics is traditionally denoted by 'zh'.

And yes, I am rather smug about my trans-atlantic-poet description of my lady's terrible American affliction.

On a more Tolkien related note, I agree with the above comment questioning why, as JRRT so clearly loved the soft 'ce' of the word 'cellar', he hardened the names of such luminaries as Celeborn. To give it a more 'authentic' Celtic feel, one imagines, but I cannot help but feel slight regret whenever I hear Celeborn said this way; I too am more in favour of the softer sound. Ah well. You can't hear me saying it!

[Evisse the Blue]

Interesting, the Professor's fascination to 'cellar door'; the first time I hear of this, so thanks a lot, Lalaith for bringing it up! If you still wonder what could Tolkien have found so beautiful about it, try saying it aloud a few times, over and over, until it's devoid of meaning and you register only it 'melody'.

On the pronunciation of 'Celeborn': I must agree with those of you that say pronouncing it with a hard 'k' is not that pleasant to the ear. In my language, the combination of letters 'ce' is pronounced like the 'che' in 'chestnut', so I find myself always pronouncing it that way.

[Lalaith]

this is a rather nice article

[VanimaEdhel]

I am proud to be able to say that I liked Donnie Darko before it became the "in" Emo movie. I won't get into an anti-Emo rant here, however. Save that for another Forum.

I agree that "cellar door", with almost any English-speaking accent, sounds very beautiful if you take away the meaning.

On a more Tolkien related note, I agree with the above comment questioning why, as JRRT so clearly loved the soft 'ce' of the word 'cellar', he hardened the names of such luminaries as Celeborn. To give it a more 'authentic' Celtic feel, one imagines, but I cannot help but feel slight regret whenever I hear Celeborn said this way; I too am more in favour of the softer sound. Ah well. You can't hear me saying it!

I tend to disagree. Though I do love the soft "ce", myself, I actually prefer the harder sound in Celeborn. For some reason, giving it the softer "ce" makes it sound a bit too much like the word "celibate" or something close to it in my opinion. In names such as Selena (Spanish pronunciation), I think it sounds very beautiful, however.

Thank you so much for the link, Lalaith.

Tolkien had a love for beautiful language. Notice how little he developed the Black Speech for example. When one reads about the language on Ardalambion, it says,

Tolkien himself did not like the Black Speech at all. One admirer sent him a steel drinking goblet, but to his disappointment he discovered that it was "engraved with the terrible words seen on the Ring. I of course have never drunk from it, but use it for tobacco ash" (Letters:422). He evidently shared the opinion of Elves and Men back in the Third Age, who certainly did not think any better of the Black Speech than they did of the other tongues used by Orcs: "It was so full of harsh and hideous sounds and vile words that other mouths found it difficult to compass, and few indeed were willing to make the attempt" (PM:35).

Eek...I have to go, sadly.

[Isowen]

I've never seen it. It sounds cool though, I like the Tolkien input there. When I first saw the title of the thread, I thought it was about the hobbit (barrels out of bond) as it is how they escape the elvenking's palace. But this is a very interesting topic and I like to think that Tolkien is known to more people than just us lotr fans!

[InklingElf]

Originally Posted by VanimaEdhel

I am proud to be able to say that I liked Donnie Darko before it became the "in" Emo movie. I won't get into an anti-Emo rant here, however.

I have a tendancy to get into those anti-emo rants too hehehe--suffice it to say despite Donnie's recent classification in the 'EMO' genre it hasn't lost its cult-like touch and the dignity of a good movie.

And yes I read the article Lalaith I like this portion:

In his essay "English and Welsh", he put forward the theory that words have a beauty that is often quite separate from their meaning. He wrote: "Most English-speaking people ... will admit that Cellar Door is ‘beautiful’, especially if dissociated from its sense and from its spelling". The English language is full of ‘Cellar Doors’, words that are beautiful, strange, sensuous or simply fun to roll off the tongue.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

As I lay half in a nightmarish daze yesterday morning on a futon, I finally woke up to the equally nightmarish "Frank". I then proceeded to wake up entirely as the movie rewound to the beginning, and then watched Donnie Darko for the first (and probably not last) time. I had thought, during the discussion of "Cellar Door" on this thread, that the reference would be barely perceptable, and that I would have to search to find it. I was obviously wrong, and was, while watching it, able to pass on the true identity of the "famous linguist" to those I was watching it with.

Watching Donnie Darko, however, I was struck with the thought "How many other Tolkien references are out there that I've completely missed?". Makes you wonder, does it not?

Fea

[Encaitare]

It does sound quite nice, but I think we must consider the accent he was accustomed to - "cellar door" sounds much better to me as an Englishman would say it than with American pronuciation!

Indeed. Americanized (and alas, how I therefore say it) is "Sellerr Duhr," or roughly that, depending on the accent of the area. It sounds much better in the English fashion... although, after staring at it for so long and being on a LotR board I'm starting to get into the "hard-c" frame of mind.

Argh, I hate it when people say Seleborn! ::yanks out hair::

[Diamond18]

I'm a bit at a loss. I don't understand the difference in pronunciation between an American cellar door and an English cellar door. If it was set down in this thread I must be missing it. Having watched a lot of PBS I've heard enough English to recognize many of the differences, but try as I might I can't seem to sum it up a unique sounding "cellar door" in my mind's ear. I pronounce it Sell - Ohr Dohr.

Well, I say revert to English... it's a prettier language than the garble most people consider speech around here.

I don't really think English is inherently more beautiful than American... it depends on which dialect/accent of each you are using and how articulately you speak them. I've heard speech that is English but qualifies as "garble" (cockney, anyone? ) and there is some beauty in the sound of certain American dialects, such as the Southern "drawl" (commonly romanticized in Civil War films). As always, nothing is absolute. And while I like English, and all that, there seems something rather pretenious in going around with an affected accent in day to day speech

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Visit Scotland.

But yes, I think I agree with Diamond here (though maybe it's because I've just laboured through an early morning lecture on Kant and my head is spinning somewhat) and admit to not seeing many different ways of pronouncing the phrase cellar door.

[Lalaith]

I wonder what Tolkien, as a tutor, would make of the accents of today's students. Regional accents are sadly disappearing in the UK. Most English youth, whatever their background of class and geography, talk in what is known as 'estuary English', a sort of 'cockney-lite' favoured by radio DJs and media personalities. Furthermore, their sentences tend to go up at the end, as if they were asking questions - this is a result of watching too many Australian soaps on telly.
Tolkien himself had a beautiful, rich, 'country' tone to his voice, as he grew up partly in Warwickshire, I wonder if he had a similar accent to Shakespeare.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Well, I say revert to English... it's a prettier language than the garble most people consider speech around here.

My point was that, as fond as I am of my own central New York slur, listening to everyone else attempt to sound differently, without ever really communicating anything, is like slogging through a mud pit. You keep trying [to listen] in hopes that when you get to the end, there'll be something that made it worth the effort. Only usually there isn't. Kids around here get too caught up with talking like their favorite singers or actors, or whatever, and they quite communicating... they're just talking. If I have to hear the words "Oh no you di'int" one more time...

Language is a beautiful thing, no matter what your dialect. Communication is probably the greatest achievement of humans ever (with the possible exception of chai latte ), and I just hate to see it used... how do I say it... pointlessly. I think that's the word I'm looking for...

Fea

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Diamond and Eomer: try pronouncing it as a single word, with the accent on the first syllable: SELL-ur-door. It's practically Elvish!

Lalaith: actually, the contemporary accent that is closest to that of Shakespeare's is not in England at all, but in America! The fishing outports of Cape Cod were settled by Elizabethans and the accents there changed little for centuries. In the last couple of decades, sadly, television and urbanisation have reduced the number of people who speak with a "genuine" Cape Cod accent, but there are a few left who can speak Hamlet's immortal phrase as it was once heard at the Globe Theatre:

"Tow bay, oor nout tow bay. Thaht ais th' quaystion!"

[Meela]

I saw the film a while back, but I'm afraid the reference to Cellar Door passed by me unnoticed. It's nice to know it's there, anyhow.

'Cellar door' is not my favourite utterence. It reminds me too much of celery, and celery, as crunchy as it is, is not my favourite greenery.

I rather like the word 'circle' myself.

That is a very pretty word. I rather like circlet as well, although circle has a more pleasant tone.
Celeborn was always one of my favourite pronunciations, with the hard 'k' of course.

[Encaitare]

Ah, so you're a New Yorker too, Fea? I can't stand people trying to talk like rappers and whatnot... come on, it's the suburbs. There is no "hood."

And, er, yeah... on topic... Apparantly the Midwestern "accent" is the closest thing to speaking the English language without an accent, if you see what I mean. My orchestra director, who I believe is Midwestern, speaks so nicely and clearly; it's so refreshing.

Having never been to England, I have hardly any first-hand experiences with the accents, and TV is unreliable. But if you try and say it with the very distinguished sounding sort of accent, the phase sounds quite nice. New Yorkers are notorious for speaking somewhat poorly, so when I say cellar door it doesn't have quite as nice a ring to it. I try my best to break that sort of sterotype, but I am guilty of saying "cawfee" for coffee and "chawklit" for chocolate. Ah, well. I'll just run around saying "verisimilitudinous" to make up for it! (I love that word!)

[Lalaith]

Fordim, I've always wanted to visit the Boston region and what you say makes me want to all the more. However, it might not necessarily be the accent that Shakespeare himself spoke, there were strong regional variations in Tudor England too.
I do love old-fashioned regional accents and speech. My elderly neighbour, when I was living in Yorkshire, still used the old-style second person singular, he would to say to me "I worry 'bout thee, lass, so far from thy parents."