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07-14-2004, 06:44 AM | #1 | |||||||
Beloved Shadow
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Good guys of LOTR clueless?
I start with a quote from Gandalf (FOTR The Shadow of the Past)-
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1) Gandalf knows what he's talking about 2) Gandalf doesn't know what he's talking about If 1) is true then Sauron is stupid and confused (I'll explain why in a sec). If 2) is true then, well, you can see why I believe the good guys didn't have a prayer. Here's another Gandalf quote (FOTR The Council of Elrond)- Quote:
And then there's this (ROTK Mount Doom)- Quote:
If Gandalf's first statement was true then Sauron is stupid and confused. He apparently doesn't even know how his own Ring works to the point that he thinks it can be destroyed without taking him down. But then at the end he must not think that anymore because he's scared to death when he realizes that the good guys are trying to destroy the Ring. Also, he thought that the elves destroyed the Ring yet he thinks no one would try to destroy it. This seems too silly to be possible. And think of this, if Sauron really didn't think that destroying his Ring would destroy him why were the good guys so confident it would work. It's absurd. Option 1) is not acceptable, which means option 2) is true (Gandalf doesn't know what he's talking about). Not only that, but think of Galadriel. As Tolkien said (letter 246)- Quote:
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And there's also another claim she made (FOTR The Mirror of Galadriel)- Quote:
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So if you put my entire post together, I'm saying it appears that the good guys of Lord of the Rings didn't know very much, or that much of what they thought they knew was wrong. So maybe everything else they said was wrong, too, it's just that we don't know it. I've always thought that the good guys didn't have a chance but wow, I didn't realize they were this clueless. Thank Eru for divine intervention in Middle Earth.
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07-14-2004, 07:17 AM | #2 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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The later quotes of Gandalf bear a context of Sauron’s discovery of the continued existence of the Ring. Under these conditions, Sauron might not have thought that anyone would wish to destroy the Ring, but that does not mean that he would not have gained a greater understanding of how things worked. Remember that at the end of the Return of the King, Sauron is not destroyed; he is simply crippled beyond all hope of recovery. At the time of the Last Alliance Sauron may have believed that the destruction of the Ring would be the end of him. He fled after his defeat and assumed that the Alliance had destroyed the Ring. Imagine his surprise when he discovers that he retains the strength to create a new shape and get up to his old tricks again. His natural conclusion would probably be that the Ring was not as important to his existence as he’d thought. Millennia pass. Sauron discovers that his Ring still exists. That puts a whole new face on things. Now he understands why he was able to regrow and do all the naughty things he can do. Perhaps the end of the Ring would still be the end of him after all. But, no worries, who in their right mind would wish to destroy the Ring? As for Galadriel, many people have a tendency to say rather inflated things from time to time. This is particularly true if they are needing to continually impress everyone around them. Galadriel may have overstated her knowledge to a)make things easier for poor dimwitted Frodo to understand and b)impress Frodo with her nearly divine stature so that she would have one more dopey admirer to add to already impressive collection. She might have also understood that Frodo would write a book about his adventures that would one day become quite popular. She would want to portray herself as being as wondrous and powerful as she possibly could.
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07-14-2004, 12:04 PM | #3 | ||||
Beloved Shadow
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But I'm willing to play with what I think is sort of silly. So, let's assume that Sauron didn't have a clue about the most basic aspect of his Ring (whether or not it would kill him if it was destroyed). In that case, perhaps Sauron wasn't really afraid when he sensed Frodo in Mt Doom. Perhaps the historians of Middle Earth interpreted the tremor that ran through his empire as fear, but in fact he was overjoyed and excited to finally find his Ring (and so close to home), and was so anxious to get his precious that he stopped focusing on everything else in his empire. After all, so what if his servants were afraid without his will behind them, for within minutes he'd have his Ring on and he'd be victorious. So there's another way to piece together the quotes I gave (and once again, it would make Gandalf very wrong about Sauron). Quote:
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07-14-2004, 12:20 PM | #4 | |
The Kinslayer
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07-14-2004, 12:41 PM | #5 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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(not saying they're meaning to lie, just that they're extremely misinformed, I would imagine Sauron is very good at the counter-intelligence/misdirection sort of thing and perhaps the good guys were in a worse predicament than we ever thought, I mean, being clueless about your enemy is pretty bad)
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07-14-2004, 12:44 PM | #6 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I'm not sure we can attribute complex thought processes to Sauron, at least not by this late stage in his devolution. He seems to me to be focussed so much on his desires that he doesn't analyse the situation in great detail. I think he was so caught up in achieving dominance, convinced of his inevitable victory & simply not thinking of defeat. He's probably a whole lot less smart than Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel or any of his enemies. I think Galadriel can say with absolute truth that she Knows all his thought, because his thought isn't all that complex. Take Morgoth. His whole desire was to reduce everything to primal chaos, yet where would that have left him?
To my mind Sauron is very powerful, but not very bright, & probably lots of thoughts passed through his 'mind', but none of them would register sufficiently to overcome his basic desire. I think its entirely possible that he didn't know how his Ring worked, or at least had forgotten. His focus always is power, control, domination. Look at the Nazgul, & the Mouth. They are simply not 'intelligent' creatures. They have become over the millenia focussed into 'devices', with a single purpose, like automata. Sauron simply doesn't have the capacity for complex, detached reasoning, the analytical capability that you're attributing to him . He's certainly powerful, but he's stupid, because he can only conceive desire for control. At the end, when Frodo stood at the Sammath Naur, & suspect that his reaction wasn't 'intellectual' - ie, that he realised his situation & his danger. I suspect he suddenly suffered a kind of unexpected 'spiritual' punch in the guts, & went into a blind panic, like a terrified animal. |
07-14-2004, 01:07 PM | #7 | |
A Northern Soul
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The 'discrepancies' you point out and attribute to characters in the story are obviously points that should be attributed more to the author. As presented in the original post, these assertions are misdirected. In the first thing pointed out, the quotes about the Ring's possible destruction, is that really Gandalf being stupid? I don't think so. More than likely, it's the author who was writing the book as he went. That is, when taken at face value - out of context, as they've been presented. The difference between the two statements can be explained by the passage of time. Gandalf had found out a lot between those scenes. He had been to Orthanc and seen what Sauron had done to Saruman - especially in reguards ; moreover, he now knew that Gollum had escaped (the quote comes from the Council of Elrond after Legolas had given his news of hte escape). Saruman's mention of searching for the Ring changed his perspective on Sauron's hopes of finding it. Gandalf wasn't stupid; there was simply very little to go on in the beginning. Over the course of that first volume is where the story begins fittingly - as the plans of Sauron begin to unravel and Gandalf now has enough to see the full picture.
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07-14-2004, 01:18 PM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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into the fire
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07-15-2004, 02:33 AM | #9 |
King's Writer
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First of all I agree compltely with what Tar-Ancalime said.
I also think that it is very important to look a the times addressed by the quotes. When Gandalf says that Sauron thought the ring was destroied by the Elves, he reffers to the time after his defeat by the Last Alliance. What did Sauron knew to let him think so? - As jet any such defeat had seen him recover soon, but know he had much more trouble to do that. - There were two great Lords of the Elves and he could be sure that at least Elrond did know about the Ring. In addition there was this young man who had already two times crossed his plans to destroy the last White Tree, and had just now dealt him a deadly blow and afterwards cuted the Ring from his finger. -> The natural conclusion seems clearly that they had destroyed his Ring. But later Sauron learned that the Ring still existed, by which way we don't know but it is possible that it was by contact with the nine, since we can belife that Sauron did know if the elvischrings would lose their power with the destrction of his ring. With that info Saurons picture changed: - Three of his biggest enemies left after the war of the Last Alliance in conclave and on the spot to do it had not been willing to destroy the Ring. ->Thus know body could be. It is attested that Sauron did not understand the motiv of Gollums unbreakable resistence against him. This could only mean that he never understood the ability of the ring to creat a disire to posses him completly independent from the disire for power or might that the possesion of the ring promissed. Since the desire to posses the ring was it that secured it from destrucion (atested by Isildur and by Frodo) Sauron had missinterpreted the motives of his enemys in not destroing the ring in the Second age. For Sauron they were all struggeling for power of their own. And Saruman was a prime example that he was right. Respectfully Findegil |
07-15-2004, 03:09 AM | #10 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Good speculation on how Sauron percieved the power of his Ring to affect others Findegil!
Sauron could never really understand that his ring held more of a pull than just the desire for power, and that it in itself was what drew the person (basically) not just the power it gives. Like you say, why should he? All he knows is that it gives huge power, and that he desires the power... it is part of him remember. How then could he feel that anyone would possess the ring if they did not want the power associated with it? How could he possibly concieve that anyone would want to destroy it. His assumptions that whoever possessed it was just carrying it until it was given to a more powerful wielder, did not go without at least some justification. I can now sympathize with his reasoning, or more importantly lack thereof...
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07-15-2004, 09:19 AM | #11 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Great post, Findegil. Makes perfect sense to me.
As I see it, Sauron was judging others by his own standards and ascribing to them his own motives. He assumed that those who came into contact with the Ring would inevitably attempt to use it to gain power, rather than destroy it. And this assumption was not entirely unjustified in light of the behaviour of Saruman (one of the "wise"). His fear on perceiving Frodo with the Ring at Sammath Naur is occasioned by the sudden realisation that, if someone could make it all the way to Mount Doom with the Ring without having attempted to use it to gain power, then they might just be capable of destroying it. The passage refers to him suddenly realising the "magnitude of his own folly". In other words, it only occurred to him at that moment that his assumption that anyone bearing the Ring would inevitably try to use it to gain power might actually be incorrect. As matters turned out, he was right that (Bombadil excepted) no one could willingly destroy the Ring, but for the wrong reasons. As Findegil has pointed out, it disn't occur to him that the Ring could coerce someone to simply desire possession of it, without regard to enhancing their power, to such a degree that they would be incapable of destroying it. So, but for the intervention of "providence" he needn't have feared.
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07-15-2004, 09:49 AM | #12 |
The Perilous Poet
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Yes to Sauce
Quite, and I think Sauce has been striking proverbial nails on their teeny-tiny heads: Sauron was quite right. Excepting the chap with brightly-coloured boots, who doesn't really fit in with the rest anyway, nobody was capable of destroying the Ring. Nobody, deliberately, ever did so.
Further to Gandalf's quote regarding Sauron's belief in the Ring's destruction: it is clear that Sauron was sore wounded by the Ring-finger-smiting incident, and when he repaired for a good long time to the dark recesses of the world, must have believed that his injury was resultant upon the Ring's destruction, not merely the severing of himself from it. As has been ably described above, the realisation that this was not the case would have distinctly changed his outlook, and confirmed his prior belief that none could willingly destroy it afresh.
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07-15-2004, 01:20 PM | #13 | |||||||||
Beloved Shadow
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If he (as Gandalf said) thought it was destroyed and had not met his doom why would he know it was his doom when he sensed Frodo at the Cracks? Why would he think someone had destroyed it and also think someone wouldn't destroy it? So far, the only way my fellow downers have been able to answer these questions involves making Sauron somewhat (or extremely) ignorant about his own creation, his ultimate weapon, his precious. The Ring wasn't some other guy he imprisoned inside of a wedding band; the Ring was a part of him. The Ring's 'body' and 'spirit' were created by Sauron. Making him clueless about the Ring seems to me even more improbable than making the good guys clueless about Sauron. Doesn't the latter seem more plausible to anyone, or am I alone? Maybe everyone hates to see the good guys brought down a peg? Quote:
But don't worry, I get your point. Quote:
And within the framework, my theory seems possible (more possible to me than Sauron not understanding his own Ring). Quote:
So how do we know the second was indeed the "full picture", since Gandalf has set a precedent for stating things that were not proven. Do we know if anyone ever had the full picture, even at the end? Quote:
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If not, oh well. It's not like I've never had an unpopular opinion.
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07-15-2004, 02:37 PM | #14 | |
A Northern Soul
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07-15-2004, 06:44 PM | #15 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
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Sauron's folly
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And neither was Sauron clueless. As has been said, despite imbuing the Ring with part of his own will, he had no way of knowing exactly what would happen if it were to be destroyed. Indeed, the Ring almost certainly didn't know itself (although obviously it was keen to prevent this situation occurring). Again, he could only act on the information available to him at any given time, although, in Sauron's case, his actions were constrained by his blind-spot when it came to assessing the motives and qualities of his opponents.
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07-15-2004, 11:38 PM | #16 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I must say this is a very interesting thread. I can see both sides, but I would have to agree with Saucepan Man.
When Frodo was in the cracks of Mount Doom, Sauron realized his peril at that precise moment. This is ME fact if you hold Tolkien as all-knowing; though, as Legolas pointed out, Tolkien is susceptible to our mortal failings in writing. Sauron did not realize it before because he was blinded by his inability to recognize the possibility of enough humility in others to attempt to destroy the Ring. He knew his danger at that point, perhaps - IMHO - the same way we know someone is watching us behind our backs; in other words, a hunch, or something like it. Going back to the First Alliance of Elves and Men, when Isildur cut the finger wearing the Ring off Sauron, Sauron was greatly crippled. He would have assumed that, being in the right place and with the knowledge (perhaps not on Isildur's part, but certainly on the part of the other leaders) that the Ring was extremely dangerous, they would have destroyed the Ring. It was, after all, the wisest thing to do. However - and I know I'm repeating someone else who posted on this thread here - Sauron found that he was not completely recovered. Still under the impression that the Ring had been destroyed, he would have assumed that it had not been as important as he'd thought, being the only conclusion he could come to, as the concept of the Ring not being destroyed had not yet occured to him. When Sauron eventually discovered that the Ring had not in fact been destroyed, he would have then formed the conclusion that if Isildur and co. had not destroyed the ring when they had the best chance possible, no one had the will to destroy it. In other words, if some of the best men/elves had not contained the will to destroy it when they knew that would be the wisest course, then surely lesser men would not have that same will. Conclusion: no one would/could destroy the Ring. My sister is begging me to get off the computer and severely breaking my concentration, so I shall sign off at this point. Cheers, ~ Elentari II P.S. I said I'd edit this post, but I've decided against it. So this post will stay as it is...
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07-16-2004, 06:00 AM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Also, one could easily write this 'cluelessness' away as being a slight discrepancy in the text, which of course is meant to have been written after the incidents as a tale (the Red Book) - embellished perhaps, worded for dramatic effect perhaps? However, this would bring up a really pointless argument about not being able to rely on the facts anywhere then, as it was relayed and written by the hobbits and scribes of Gondor...
If anyone were to even think about using this argument, they truly must be insane! (Um... but Osse... QUIET YOU!) <Oh no... not another canonocity discussion.> Sauron was a very powerful, guilly individual, certainly not thick , nor for that matter were any of the character in opposition to him...I agree there are portions of contradictory or unreliable text, however, if one were truly podantic, one could find such loopholes throughout any author's works. If one were in a nasty mood, one could take these loops and twist them to form a noose around itself, ruining the piece for everyone, or on the other hand, one could take what is written in justified light, and explain it using other instances and your general good sense!
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07-16-2004, 09:26 AM | #18 | |
The Kinslayer
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I doesn't get any more clueless than that! Why did he have to wait all that time for? Also when Isildur took Sauron's ring, Elrond and Co. just said, well ok, and that was it. And with Sauron believing that his ring was destroyed, if I recall correclty, in LOTR I have never read that Sauron said that (I don't think that I have seen Sauron having a dialogue in there). All that we have is the thoughts from the good guys about Sauron. I believe that the good guys won from sheer luck. They didn't have a brilliant strategy planned. They knew that Sauron could not be defeated with armies and they could not use the ring against him. The good guys strategy was to have Frodo go and destroy the Ring, but he was unable to throw it into his little fire in Bag End. What if Gollum instead of falling into the fire had run out and was taken over by a Nazgûl?
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07-16-2004, 09:40 AM | #19 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
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07-16-2004, 01:33 PM | #20 | ||
The Kinslayer
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Bilbo had the Ring in the shire in 2942 TA. It is in 3001 TA where Gandalf suspects that it might be the One Ring. There is a lapse of 59 years. The chances of Bilbo's Ring being the One Ring is: 1/7. So your point is that he spent those 59 years in trying to find out more about Bilbo's Ring? I'm sorry but that is just plain incompetence. Quote:
To me their actions was like: Hey Isildur took the Ring, oh well.
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07-16-2004, 01:59 PM | #21 | |
Wight
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As to Isildur, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields in the Unfinished Tales says: "No trace of his body was ever found by Elves or Men." suggesting that they did indeed search for him. It also says that "his mail, helm, shield and great sword (but nothing else) had been found", further suggesting he was searched for.
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07-17-2004, 08:25 AM | #22 | |||
The Kinslayer
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He didn't have to wait for 59 years to do it. Twenty rings sounds "many" to me. Quote:
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Then we find out that Saruman begins to search the Gladden Fields at 2851 TA. If what you say is true, then both the Elves and Men who searched for the remains of Isildur must be very incompetent or clueless. Look, Déagol found the Ring in 2463 TA, meaning that 2461 years had passed from the death of Isildur, and Saruman found items belonging to Isildur in 2851 TA. There had passed 388 years since Déagol had found the ring. Are you telling me that in 2849 years, the good guys could not have found those things that Saruman did? Please.
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07-17-2004, 10:26 AM | #23 | ||
Wight
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Like you, I do not know why 'the good guys' didn't find more than they did. They did find the stuff Isildur threw away. Probably they didn't search that much after the first search. Why? Maybe because they figured Isildur's body had be washed to the sea? Your guess is as good as mine! Another thing to consider is, that the Elves and Woodmen fighting the Orc party who had attacked Isidur's group probably left quite quickly after destroying and pursuing what was left of the Orc party. Gondor and Arnor, moreover, were, just 2 years after the War of the Last Alliance and after Isildur's death in great turmoil, I assume, and the people were more interested in destroying what was left of Sauron's armies and in rebuilding their society than in searching for the remains of Isildur, which they thought had washed to the sea.
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07-17-2004, 11:37 AM | #24 | |||||
The Kinslayer
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From LOTR: Quote:
From the Council of Elrond Quote:
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If Gandalf had been more vigilant, he could have just travelled to Minas Tirith circa 2942 to find out about the One Ring, so as to discard that it was not Sauron's ring, instead of waiting 75 years to do that. And a minor plus point is that probably Gandalf would have been better received by Denethor at an earlier time. Quote:
Why didn't Elrond do a decent search then, if he himself had warned Isildur to destroy the Ring? His realm was not in great turmoil. What is his excuse then?
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07-17-2004, 12:43 PM | #25 | ||
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Quoting the same passage as Maédhros used:
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I think Gandalf did what he could. After TA 3001 when he picked up his suspicions, he went around hunting Gollum for a while as well. And he might also have gone to other places to search, mainly Rivendell, like someone said.
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07-17-2004, 12:45 PM | #26 |
A Northern Soul
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Bilbo's ring seemed very harmless. He stole it from a disgusting creature in a cave under the mountains (which the creature was using to hunt fish). It can turn him invisible... None of this points anywhere near the great Ring Sauron used to enslave the Nazgul. I don't find the situation of "Oh - Bilbo found a ring. Better make sure it's not Sauron's One Ring!" plausible (even ignoring the fact that the Ring was thought to be lost forever, washed into the sea). Gandalf does say magic rings are "rare and curious," but while rare, there were undoubtedly many more aside from the Rings of Power (and though there were 20, at the least 12 were accounted for). It took the Ring preserving his youth to throw up a flag.
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07-17-2004, 02:24 PM | #27 | ||
Wight
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When all was 'normal' again in Rivendell, Arnor, and Gondor time had passed and people probably thought it no longer usefull to hunt for remains of Isildur, guessing he had been brought to sea by the River Anduin.
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07-17-2004, 07:42 PM | #28 | |
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There is something else to consider as well.
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Now I suppose he will be chided for not thinking of this sooner. Regarding the search made for Isildur’s body… I think there is evidence (already noted above) that Elves and Men tried to search for Isildur’s body. However, just because they did not find it is not proof of incompetence. Consider, they were operating in hostile territory. It is true that the local orcs had lost a good deal, but they were probably still capable of pouncing upon small parties of searchers. Later, when Saruman was searching, he probably had an understanding with the local orcs, if indeed they were not working with him. Elves and Men had no particular reason to guard the area, so Saruman was able to search the area most carefully and with security. Just because Saruman found the body does not mean that it was easy to find. It might have been that it took him a very long time to uncover it. We don’t know when the body was found. Saruman began searching in 2851. The next we hear of it is in 2939 when Sauron starts searching the area. That gives Saruman considerable time to drag an unlimited number of bodies from the river.
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07-17-2004, 09:44 PM | #29 | |||||||||
The Kinslayer
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It was because of the lack of interest coupled with the incompetence of the searchers that they didn't find anything. It was Elrond himself that talked to Isildur about destroying the Ring. Quote:
1. Gandalf felt uneasy about Bilbo's ring. 2. In the last meeting of the White Council, Gandalf had the knowledge that Bilbo's ring description was similar that of Sauron. Gandalf had all of the information that he needed to find out if Bilbo's was that of Sauron just 11 years after Bilbo returned to the Shire. If you don't think that there is a problem with Gandalf waiting an extra 64 years, then that is ok with me, but I think that it is just plain wrong. The logical line of reasoning to me would be: 1. Bilbo is my friend. 2. I have a bad feeling about Bilbo's magic ring. 3. Bilbo's ring description and that of Sauron are similar. 4. Go and do some research about it yourself, for the sake of friendship! Quote:
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07-17-2004, 10:59 PM | #30 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Anyway, Gandalf was uncertain how to determine if the Ring was The One rather than one of the lesser rings. That is why he was trying to find Gollum for all those years. He hoped to find a clue. He did not know that fire would bring out the letters that would reveal the Ring until he read that in Minas Tirith. (And I don’t want to hear anything about Gandalf tossing the Ring into a fire beforehand just to see what would happen. I’m sure your first step in determining the properties of a unique item is to try to destroy it.) Just because the idea of trying to find some writing of Isildur in Minas Tirith did not occur to Gandalf until the hunt for Gollum appeared certain to prove fruitless does not make him incompetent. Not even wizards can think of everything all the time. Quote:
If everyone in the tale is incompetent then competence ceases to have any meaning because nobody possesses it. It tends to render this whole discussion rather pointless.
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07-19-2004, 08:33 AM | #31 | |||
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No. There is an interest statement by Gandalf in which he says that he was deceived by the words of Saruman. I don't think that he was lulled but rather he wanted to convince himself that Bilbo's ring could not in any way be that of Sauron, even though he had a bad feeling about it and they had similar descriptions. IMO Gandalf deceived himself by saying, well if Saruman who studied the lore of the Rings think that it is lost then it must be so. A note about fires, you don't mean the same fire in Bilbo's fireplace that could not even melt gold? Quote:
If they could have destroyed the Ring much sooner than when it actually happened, a great deal of wars and battles and suffering could have been avoided. The destruction of Sauron in the year 2 of the TA would have been a greater victory for ME than his actual defeat 3000 plus years later. This is what people fail to see.
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07-19-2004, 12:25 PM | #32 | |
Lost among the Stars
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07-19-2004, 01:15 PM | #33 | ||||||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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How does their victory by luck prove they were incompetent? I could name many instances where highly competent individuals succeeded by luck (or at least what is called luck). That is just a part of life. Quote:
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07-19-2004, 01:44 PM | #34 | ||||
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07-20-2004, 07:23 AM | #35 | ||
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I also believe that Gandalf was meant for the job. Confusing? Well, let me use another example to explain. Frodo was meant to be the Ring bearer, but he certainly wasn't fit for the job. When it came down to it he could not destroy the Ring. He failed though he was the perfect one for the task. Gandalf as the leader of the resistance to Sauron also failed. Remember, Gandalf died when he fought the Balrog. At that point it was over for the good guys. Just imagine the rest of the book without the things that Gandalf did. But Eru sent him back (with extra power) and so ammended his failure. Similarly, when Frodo failed Eru stepped in and made everything turn out okay. Quote:
Thank Eru for Eru.
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07-20-2004, 08:49 AM | #36 | |||
Wight
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07-20-2004, 04:18 PM | #37 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I think the Wise would have been incompetent if they had not picked out the best means of disposing of their little problem.
They decided that the best solution was to destroy the Ring (thinking out of the box). They endeavored to get that job done. They did a darn good job of keeping Sauron completely bamboozeled about their true intentions. That does not sound terribly incompetent to me.
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07-20-2004, 05:47 PM | #38 | |||
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I'm talking more along the lines of incapable, though when I looked up incompetent in the thesaurus a couple of the synonyms seemed applicable. The synonyms listed under ineffectual seem to work well (eg unsuccessful and inadequate) so perhaps that is a better word to use. Quote:
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07-20-2004, 08:08 PM | #39 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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*Stop press* Eru incompetent
Ah, what a wonderful thing is hindsight!
As I said earlier on in this thread, Gandalf did the best that he could in light of his circumstances and the information available to him at the time. But he was only human (or, rather, subject to human frailties). So, while he undoubtedly had great wisdom, he was not above making mistakes. He may well have been guilty of an error of judgment in not taking more concerted action to identify the nature of the Ring earlier, but I would not equate this with incomptence or inadequacy. Perhaps he would have done things differently with the benefit of hindsight, but he chose the course of action which seemed the best to him at the time. And perhaps it was a good thing that he did. What would have happened had he discovered the true identity of the Ring much earlier? Would Bilbo have undertaken the Quest to destory it. Who would he have taken with him? Would he have succeeded to the extent that Frodo did? Possibly, given that Sauron was not as strong. But what of Saruman? Quite possibly he would have been present at the council to decide the fate of the Ring. If he had offered to take custody of it, or at least accompany the Ringbearer on the Quest, would any have opposed him at that time? Even were Gandalf also present on the Quest, would he (as Gandalf the Grey) have been able to protect the Ringbearer from Saruman? Probably not, given that Saruman was able to overpower him in Orthanc. So perhaps things worked out for the best after all. In any event, if failure to take an early course of action that would have prevented much suffering equates to incompetence, then Eru was the most incompetent of all. He was able to intervene to oppose Sauron, for example by "arranging" for Bilbo to find the Ring and, of course, by giving Gollum a little "nudge" at Sammath Naur. So why didn't he just intervene by having Sauron drop the Ring in the fire just after he had forged it? Talk about incompetence!
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07-21-2004, 11:04 AM | #40 | |||
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I do not seem to recall that there were other rings besides those (at least magic rings made by the Elves in Eregion). Do you or anyone else has any proof to the contrary, that there could be other lesser rings which didn't have gems in them that could have the similar description as Sauron's ring? Quote:
Lets see if hindsight was needed: 1. Gandalf felt uneasy about Bilbo's ring. 2. Gandalf knew that both rings had similar descriptions 11 years after Bilbo returned to the Shire in the White council discussion. 3. Gandalf while in that council mistrusted Saruman as to not tell him about Bilbo's ring but was satisfied about his conclusions that the ring could not be found. 4. In a world where gut feelings are as important of more important than common sense then was Gandalf not following his feeling odd? 5. If they were only 20 rings, what was the probability that Bilbo's ring was Sauron's? P=1/20, now knowing about the ones of the Ring wraiths and the 3 Elven ones, we have P=1/8, yet in his visit to Dol Guldur, he could at least discount one of those 7 dwarven rings. P=1/7. With all those facts, do you really think that one needed hindsight at that point? Wow. With that information, it did not warrant an inmediate research about his ring? Quote:
While the Istari had an insiders perspective in ME that they were the enemies of Sauron and I believe that if they could accomplish their mission 50 years earlier, it would have saved some suffering in the world.
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