Annoying Unbelievers

[Lalaith]

Ok, we've done annoying experts and amateurs, what about those who mock what they do not understand?

To illustrate what I mean, I had an utterly idiotic argument with Mr Lalaith the other day about Numenoreans. (He's seen the films but never got past the Hobbit, book-wise) He gathered from a conversation I was having with someone else that they had a much longer lifespan than ordinary men.
The conversation went something like this:
"So Aragorn is not human then?"
"Yes, he is human, but his race just lives longer."
"I'm sorry, if they live longer than men, they can't be men."
"Look, Tolkien created them, if he says Numenoreans are men then that's what they are."
"But it still doesn't make sense."
And so it went on. Sigh. Has anyone else suffered in this way?

[Boromir88]

My favorite questions are...

Why doesn't Gandalf use his magic and blast the orcs?

Who was Elrond's brother? (this asked by me)
When I tell them Elros, first king of Numenor, they can't get that Elrond and Elros were half-elven. Elrond chose immortal, Elros chose mortal.

As for other ones, a lot of people mistake Valinor as the Grey Havens. That Saruman first created the Uruk-hai and that Gothmog was a mutated, demented orc. Don't get me wrong the people who ask and want to learn, I encourage questions, I am merely talking about the people under this topic category. The people who can't "believe" and think they are always right. One time I talked with someone who thought Dragons were dead Wizards from long ago. Then he just got nasty, "How do you know Dragons aren't dead wizards...etc?" I don't mind people misunderstanding, and pointing them the right way, it's the ones that think they're right and you're wrong.

[Noxomanus]

How did that person ever get the idea that Dragons are dead wizards??

What I find irritating is those people that have only seen (yes,SEEN) Fellowship of the Ring and can't stand Hobbits or anything about LotR afterwards,simply because they didn't like it due to a lack of fantasy. And then they blame the movies or characters for their own inability to enjoy ME.

[Minyataurien]

I'm really tired of explaining WHY the eagles can't just fly over and just drop the ring into Mt. Doom. arghh..it's annoying
as for stupid questions, these were all asked by a friend when she went to the theater with me

is gollum related to frodo? hopefully not *rolls eyes*
are hobbits human or something? i doubt it *rolls eyes*
why is the ring so heavy, it doesn't look very big? it just IS *rolls eyes*
that elf dude is so hot isn't he? yes, now be quiet so MAYBE we can hear him!!

those are real questions and how i answered them. i'm not explaining everything, she'll never care anyway...

[Lalwendë]

Argh! The 'Eagle' question! Honestly, this one has been tossed around so often where I work that it's now become a bit of a joke.

I have some stock answers to that one:
1. If the eagles did fly over Mount Doom and 'drop in' the ring, then why would there have been a book at all.
This is your petulant reply, if you can't be bothered arguing any further.

2. The eagles have their own minds and they are their own race, and as such they are not at the constant call of anyone.

3. If the eagles flew into Mordor carrying The One Ring/Frodo then the Nazgul would rip them apart.

Mostly though, I don't mind questions or weird statements about LOTR, as they just give me a further excuse to talk or while the day away with e-mail chains about my favourite topic.

[Nirvana II]

heres one my brother asked me the other day as we were watching RotK on Pay Per view:

If Sauron and Gandalf are equals (I told him about the Ainur), why doesn't Gandalf just kill Sauron?

[Saraphim]

Yeesh. In the amount of time I've spent trying to explain to people why Frodo couln't have been taken to Mt. Doom by eagles or horses, I could have taught myself Quenya, Sindarin, Kuzdul, Aduniac, Old English, and the Black Speech.

What really makes me want to smack people around with a flaming trout is the question: "What's so great about Lord of the Rings?"

[Nirvana II]

therin lies the unanswerable question.....and what is so great about LOTR...i sure dont know that...... and another.....Can Gandalf teleport?And if so why can't he take anyone with him?

[Gil-Galad]

theres a bunch of questions i can't remember...

[Gorwingel]

I have had people ask me questions like this, and usually I don't try to give them an explaination at all, because it makes it easier and it takes less time. I usually tell them to just go with the story, and to try not to think too much about the details. Because if they do that they usually will get it, and answer their own questions in time

[Boromir88]

Gorwingel, that's some good advice, I suggest the same thing. Soon I will be starting The Sil, for the first time, and first reading I'm just going to read it for pure enjoyment. I'm not going to spend too much time focusing on little details and getting all the names down, then when I start rereading it that's what I'll begin doing, focusing on the names, places...etc.

Nirvana,

therin lies the unanswerable question.....and what is so great about LOTR...i sure dont know that

That is definately unanswerable, it all depends upon the people's like and dislikes. I've seen fans who enjoy the story/plot, but slam Tolkien for his crappy writing. Personally, there are definately better writers out there then Tolkien, but his story was such a great one, and to me it seems very well written. The description he uses only brings you more into the story. There's some parts of Tolkien's writing that I would do different, for example add more round characters, theres only what I see 4-5 different round characters everyone else is pretty much flat. Denethor, Beregond, Faramir, Gollum, and possibly Boromir all come to mind (forgot about Saruman as well). The good parts too it, is the description, the "growth" of all the fellowship characters, from the start of the story, to the end, and as mentioned earlier an amazing plot/story. LOTR is one of the few fantasy books I have ever read, there were a few more written a while back, (name and author scip me at the moment) but it was a series and one of the books was called "Page" and it was about the tales of Krondor and everything. If anyone knows please help me out. Besides that those are the only fantasy books I've enjoyed. Which tells you, in my opinion, Tolkien is right up towards the top.

Can Gandalf teleport?And if so why can't he take anyone with him?

I haven't read any where that Gandalf could teleport (also so far I've only read The Hobbit and LOTR a zillion times). I would guess no, since there have been no records of Gandalf teleporting, but that doesn't mean that he actually couldn't have teleported. Yes, another unanswerable question, atleast to one who hasn't read all of Tolkien's work. For the question, why can't he take anyone with him? Same question as the eagle one, and a stupid one. If Gandalf actually was able to teleport, there would be a reason why he wouldn't take anyone with him I'm sure, maybe because only wizards could withstand the "teleport warp" I don't know lol.

I don't mind people who don't like LOTR, its all about what you prefer to read, it's the ones that come into rooms and forums and mock Tolkien fans that tick me off. I can't force everyone to like the stories but you can leave us in peace and let us discuss what we like, we'll leave you peace and let you discuss what you like. I'm one of those people that often uses the "I give you respect if you give me respect" saying.

[The Saucepan Man]

Can Gandalf teleport?

No. Teleport is a 10th level spell. Gandalf is only a 9th level Magic-User.

[StarJewel]

To me, people who ask questions, even dumb ones, are okay. If they have read the books and really don't get something, well, everybody misses things sometimes. But the ones who haven't even touched any of Tolkien's books, or have seen maybe one or two of the movies, well, sometimes I just want to whack them with a dull sword. These are the questions that really got me (and believe it or not, all of these are from the same person)...

1. So, why did Aragorn and Arwen get married if they are related?? That is, like, so perverted!
2. Why is Elrond so ugly? I thought Elves were supposed to be hot.
3. Which one is the elf...Aragorn or Boromir?

When this person asked me these "questions", I just looked at her in utter shock and walked away.
Saucepan Man, kudos for the 9th or 10th level thing! People at my school mainly think Lord of the Rings is just an offshoot of DnD.

[Gil-Galad]

ah ha! i remember what i was going to post!


i joined a couple roleplaying sites that feature lotr rpg's, well those people there are rather big unbelivers, i have to keep lecturing them what can and can not be allowed! i got 5 people claiming to wizards, one person being a sorceress grand-daughter of Saruman! one guy creating his own race in teh Brownland claiming it to be a super-training camp aganest sauron! another person claiming to be an elf princess in Edenwaith where her realm controls thousands upon thousands of elvish horsemen! and so much more it blew my mind!people being aragorns brother cousin etc...a cave troll that is smart and good.... a talking dog...a vampire lord of the north that can decimate every army! and probaly much mroe i forgot... well i kept arguing and got booted from one of the sites...week after i checked on it and it was desolate...saying that they joined another rpg site...i just have to say good riddance!

[Silmiel of Imladris]

My friend and I got and the biggest fight (If you can believe this) over Glorfindel coming to the rescue of Frodo. I had read the books at that time and she was just starting and wasn't even at Flight to Ford yet. But she kept insisting that it was Elrond who rescued Frodo on horseback not Glorfindel. Good Grief! She just would not take my word for it even when I had read the books and she wasn't at that chapter yet. Of course she had to turn this trival squabble into and all out duel to the death. Luckily we got over it and still love eachother.

[Novlamothien]

one of my friends, who knew a lot of Greek and Roman mythology, had trouble understanding that the Valar were not like the Greek and Roman gods, that there were not Valar of love, and war and the moon, etc. She thought that-for example-Varda was the "goddess" of the stars, Yavanna was the 'goddess' of the earth...
You get the point. I spent forever trying to explain that this was not the case, and I don't think she got it.
Well, at least I got to discuss the Sil a little.

If anyone can think of a good answer to this question, their input would be appreciated. I have only read the Sil once, and I might have missed something.

Namarie

[ohtatyaro]

Here (by here I mean the real place I used to live, not the place on the internet), there is a place in one of the parks they call 'foul place'. But I hear it was fair once - when I was some three or four years old, it was called Eglador, and teenagers gathered there to have fun - read poetry (Tolkien's or theirs) and discuss Tolkien. Now it is full of drunken dudes who say they are elfs. As their idea of the proper behaviour for elfs is to find some 'orcs' and beat him or her up, it is no pleasant place to go. I can't say 'anymore', I don't remember when it was.

Those dudes is what I call 'annoying experts'. Dude with the club is annoying, and when he pretends to know what he is about - I'm an elf, you're an orc, come here, you!- that makes them 'experts'.

[ohtatyaro]

Mifire - I meant to put it to into "annoying Experts". Probably I will. But those dudes might be unbelievers too - I mean, if you try to tell them they are wrong, they won't beleive you.

[Gil-Galad]

well i have ot admit one thing, when i was very young and havn't read hte books yet, i played a lotr map on a game, there i thought that Glorfindel was a woman...

[Morsul the Dark]

here is one question that annoys me "Does the ring really say all of that?" obviously

and secondly "whats so grat about ents?" ents are my favorite race speaking of which does anyone know any books pertaining(sp?) to just ents i wish to learn more about them woops i just asked a dumb question eh? oh werll i would like to know sorry to interrupt the topic

oh and here's a common question"why doesn't Gandalf take the ring?" grrr

[Silmiel of Imladris]

one of my friends, who knew a lot of Greek and Roman mythology, had trouble understanding that the Valar were not like the Greek and Roman gods, that there were not Valar of love, and war and the moon, etc. She thought that-for example-Varda was the "goddess" of the stars, Yavanna was the 'goddess' of the earth...

Posted by Novlamothien

I don't know too much about this either, but I can see where your friend is coming from. I read the part where they explain each Valar again and in my opinion there are ties between them and not just greek mythology, but I see others as well. Now when it comes to being Varda as the Goddess of the stars you are right for the Valar are not assigned to just one thing. But neither are the Greek gods. For example, my favorite and patron Apollo is mostly known as the God of the Sun. Well like Varda being the lady of the stars he is much more than a sun god. He is the god of music and dancing, of prophecy, of healing, of truth (he can't tell a lie) of argiculture, protector of young men. So I feel that your friend was right when we dig a little deeper and is the not such an "annoying unbeliver". I hope that answers your question and sheds light on the subject.

Unless you meant that the Valar are not "Goddesses" but I too have always seen them as that for they are still deities whatever name you give them. And when I say deities I mean an imbodiment of energy that we believe in a pray to, ei, God, Jesus, Allah, Budha, Apollo. Which is exactly what the Valar are.

[Esgallhugwen]

I must relate this story in third person because it happened with my Mom at work. They were discussing if Wizards were human or not. Of course my Mom is knowledgible enough to say that they are not, that they are spirits that were sent to protect Middle-Earth. She tried to read the Silm when she was younger but never got through it so she doesn't know about the Valar and Maiar being the same but of different class. Anyway she was trying to convince her co-workers of this and they just weren't getting it and they were argueing that Gandalf was human because he died and because he was old. She said he was sent to ME as an old man to represent wisdom and a humble nature and that it wasn't his true form and that he didn't really die per-se but was reincarnated to a higher level. Which in my humble opinion isn't far from the truth if it isn't the truth.

And then there are some of the typical questions that some of you have already posted. And since I have no friends that are as deeply into LOR as I am whenever they may ask a question (usually about the movies) and I try to explain whatever it is to them they seem the more confused because of it. *Sigh*

p.s. I like you signatures Saraphim and you too Gil-Galad!

[Lachwen]

The one I get all the time is "Why didn't Gandalf just blast the Ring?" And the ever-present "Why didn't Gandalf kill Sauron?" And when I try to explain to them the Valar's ban on the Istari challenging Sauron with open show of force, they just get confused and angry, like Homer Simpson when he doesn't understand.

But the greatest was the argument I got into with a random person in front of the theater once... He was talking about how hardcore Arwen was, "You know she drowned the Ringwraiths!" And when I told him that Arwen at the Fords was just a product of Peter Jackson's imagination and it was really Glorfindel who saved Frodo at the Fords...sweet angry Jeebus, I thought he was going to punch me in the face.

[Morsul the Dark]

Well one question that arose was "If the ring attracts Sauron when someone wears it why don't they detect it when Bilbo has t or Gollum?" and I relized I don't know the answer but if someone tells me I'
ll try not be an annoying unbeliever.

and secondly I'll admit before I came to this site I'd probably be considered an annoying non-believr I thought I knew everything then I came here and learned I knew very little

[Encaitare]

Someone actually posed the "Why don't the eagles drop the Ring into Mount Doom?" question to me, and I actually went "hm.... that might have worked..." but then decided the slow way is far more fun for us to read about, and the eagles probably wouldn't have done it anyway. As someone stated earlier, they are their own noble race and aren't at anyone else's beck and call.

Morsul, I know exactly how you feel. In my circle of friends I probably know the most about LotR, but here there are so many people who know so much more. Someday, I too shall be this knowledgable... I hope

[ohtatyaro]

Maybe ring affects eagels too? I mean, they are afraid to take it as Gandalf was?

For Sauron I think i know the answer - Sauron attracted the ring mroe when he was strong and the ring was near, roght? Gollum was far away under the mountains, and Sauron was very very weak then,. He only started to get strong when ring was with Frodo, and than Frodo started to go to Mordor. And when he was near Mordor, Sauron was already very strong, so it was easier for him to sense the ring.

[Morgul Queen]

Gandalf is one of the messabgers of the Valar, they have forbidden him to directly oppose Sauron. This means that he can't face Sauron one on one as that was the task of the free peoples of Middle-earth, he can, however, advise, manipulate and wheedle the others into doing the job.

Gandalf was send as an advisor, not as a warrior.

Second, the eagles are the birds of Manwe, hence they would not interfere if he asked them not to.

Third, none of Tolkien's characters are flat. To use Denethor, son of Ecthelion as an example, he was the last ruling steward of Gondor, driven mad by the knowledge of what Sauron intended for Gondor and the lies he was fed via the Palantir.

To go back to when Denethor was younger, as the heir of the reigning steward he was supposed to be Captain of Gondor, by Thorongil, Aragorn who had come to the city of Minas Tirith in disguise to serve under Ecthelion, was given this post instead.

If this wasn't enough, not only did the people of Gondor like Thorongil more than Denethor, his own father did as well. Poor, bitter Denethor was basically given the impression that he couldn't be trusted to defend his city.

When Ecthelion died and Denethor became steward, he began to use the Palantir to keep an eye on his neighbour to the East and his doings. While he was eventually driven mad by the visions he was given, he did manage to keep Minas Tirith whole and well while being the closest realm to Mordor and the most hated as well. He would have face multiple, repeated attacks upon the city and surrounding lands. To have kept his people alive for so long is no mean feat.

Denethor married the daughter of the Prince of Dol Amroth, Finduilas, Imrahil's sister. They had two sons, Boromir and Faramir, before she died.

Not only burdened with the lossof his wife and the grief of his family, he would have had to keep a lookout for Gondor as well. That would take an enormous amount of energy, leaving him wide open to Sauron's mental attacks.

I will pause for a moment in my fangirly defense of my most beloved character to say this - even Galadriel was corrupted to some degree by mental attacks by Sauron, for him to have lasted this long with no spouse to support him and no Ring to protect his land is nothing short of amazing.

Finally succoming to madness, at the moment of the last attack was noting short of a tragedy, but it is understandable. he had just lost both of his sons, while we learn later that Faramir isn't dead, Denethor doesn't know this.

In short, Denethor is a marvellously layered character, with weaknesses, strengths and a good spoonful of humanity thrown in as well.

in Tolkien, what is not said can convey more than is said, but I'm leaving the Celeborn defense to Marnie, she's better suited to it.

Morgy, gone completely OT but doesn't care.

[Encaitare]

Ohtatyaro said:

Maybe ring affects eagels too? I mean, they are afraid to take it as Gandalf was?

Hmm, that's possible. *ponders* Well, the eagles are certainly sentient beings, so I guess there's no reason why it wouldn't affect them like it would any other race. They all just seem so noble and untouchable, though.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Ohtatyaro said:



Hmm, that's possible. *ponders* Well, the eagles are certainly sentient beings, so I guess there's no reason why it wouldn't affect them like it would any other race. They all just seem so noble and untouchable, though.

and thats one reason they wouldn't take the ring eeven such an important task is not worthy of such nobel creatures also eagles are far more noticeable than a fellowship of nine

[Isowen]

I have two other Best Friends and one of them is as nuts on lotr as I am, the other is not so much. So me and my friend were talking about Barrow-downs and she said "What's so good about lotr, I haven't read the books and I haven't seen the films, I think it's sad and wierd." I was mortally offended and asked my friend if she would mind keeping her unbelieving thoughts to herself!

[Morsul the Dark]

Most people that dont like lotr like star wars and the star wars fans find lotr messed up and hard to understand I believe Star Wars is annoyingly boring makes so little sense it should be destroyed! at any rate sorry to offend star wars fans

But yes I have people the hate lotr too and it bugs me

[Morgul Queen]

-_- Star Wars stole bits off 'Rings.

What's the name of the Ewoks planet?
Endor

What's the elvish name for Middle-earth? Well, one of them, anyway...
Endor

Yup, exactly the same. Go figure, hm?

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Morgul Queen

-_- Star Wars stole bits off 'Rings.

What's the name of the Ewoks planet?
Endor

What's the elvish name for Middle-earth? Well, one of them, anyway...
Endor

Yup, exactly the same. Go figure, hm?

Well, perhaps it was not stealing so much as a subtle reference, just to see who picks up on it.

[turgon]

It's been my experiance that those who criticize tolkiens style of writing usually are not that well read anyway. Sad , but there it is.
A little off topic maybe; furthermore I rather liked the exclusivity of tolkien fans before the movies.

I'm not saying that those who've read the books after the films are bad or annoying--not at all. I just don't like illiterate goofball critics

[Morgul Queen]

An...interesting...conversation

Person: LotR sucks! It's soooo stupid!
Morgy: Have you ever read it?
Person: NO, and I'm not going to because it's stupid!
Morgy: How could you know that? You haven't read it!
Person: I went to the movie and fell asleep because it's stupid!
*Morgy: *sighs, walks to the dictionary section of the library, picks up a thesaurus and walks back* You really need some new adjectives, ya know? You can only use stupid so many times before looking stupid yourself.

And, very OT but still funny.

(Art Classroom, Morgy's singing along to Nirvana*

Teenybopper1: This music is sooo bad, it's like 20 years old!
Morgy: *pauses singing for a moment* 10, actually. *goes back to singing*
Teenybopper2: Well, my Dad listens to this music!
Morgy: *looks up* Tell your Dad he has excellent taste!
Teenybopper: .....

Actually, looking back, the Nirvana discussion started the LotR discussion. They came up to me in the library later that day.

[elronds_daughter]

One of my brothers' friends thinks I'm in love with Pippin just because I think he's a good character. (We won't mention that I was for a while....) He's more of a non-understanding fan than an unbeliever, but it's still terribly annoying. I still haven't been able to get across to him that I will never have a crush on a movie character because it is pointless. In my opinion, anyway. Who else agrees with me? I'd like to feel like I'm not the only reasonable person on earth.

[Nimrodel_9]

Oh gosh! I hate the eagle question!

If Sauron and Gandalf are equals (I told him about the Ainur), why doesn't Gandalf just kill Sauron?

Someone asked me that question before.(They had only seen the movies.) My reply was, "Because they were equals! That would be kind of like having 2 dogs of the same strength. The 2 dogs fight, but neither of them win, because neither is stronger than the other." They still didn`t get it.

Another one I have had asked before is, "Why can`t the Elves die?" "They can die, they just age very very slowly and illness does not effect them." "Why not? Couldn`t you put one in the same room with a sick person with a very contagious disease, so that they catch it?"

It`s amazing how dumb (to be quite blunt) some people can be. It`s so simple, yet they still don`t get it! I do not understand.

[The Saucepan Man]

Funnily enough, each of those questions has given rise to fairly long threads in this forum. So I would not describe them as dumb. The very fact that people are engaged enough to raise them suggests to me that they have some interest in the concepts involved.

I accept that those who make a point of their dislike of Tolkien's works in order to attack those who like them are displaying rather immature and (to coin an oft used phrase on this thread) "stupid" behaviour. All the more so if they have never bothered to read them. However, I do think that it is important to recognise that there are those for whom Tolkien simply holds no appeal, for perfectly valid reasons. That, in itself, most certainly does not make them ignorant, undiscerning, unintelligent or in any other way "stupid".

[THE Ka]

Hmmm. Yes, i have recieved questions from crictics about the Lord of The Rings, luckly most have not been bias, or too judgemental. But for the ones that have, it has made me think deeply and reflect on these questions. Why? Well, first i studied WHO, WHY, and WHEN. From what i've found, on a high-schooler's experience and point of view is that these are usually people who have never even heard Tolkien before, have not been part of the "group" who would read Tolkien, or would have ever called themselves a tolkien "fan".

A rather nasty question that I have had the misfortune to hear asked if the movies were like some way to futher "convert" people into fanatics. Why this upset me was, i've never seen being a fan of an author as a sterotypical reference to a "cult". I mean, it's not like we have our own versions of metaphysics! Now, you don't have to agree with me but, it's natural for society to explode one ideal or concept so massively that it either holds on to everyone or a select group of individuals. A good example that i've seen is the Harry Potter Movies and what spawned off of them. (If you are a fan, i am one too i'm not saying you stupid.thank you.) But, this didn't seem to happen in LOTR 's case. Actually is smoothed over quiet nicely. Old fans were re-inspired to pick up the books, new fans were made and who knows, maybe some more will come. Although, this is just my opinion, you don't have to agree.

Hope I helped. (If i didn't, well i warned you this is just my Opinion.)
~The Ka~

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by e_d:

I still haven't been able to get across to him that I will never have a crush on a movie character because it is pointless. In my opinion, anyway.

*Enca mutters something ashamedly and cowers in the corner*

...okay, let's call it an obsession rather than a crush, ok?