The Landing of Elendil

[Osse]

As we all know, Elendil escaped the Wrath of the Valar and the sinking of Numenor with his sons and seven other ships full of those true to the West. He then founded the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. However, I am a little sceptical that seven ship-loads would be enough to populate both kingdoms, dispite them mingling with those people of (mixed or scant) Numenorean descent that inhabited the western shores of Middle Earth! If we reason that (given the situations of departure hehe) each ship could carry (at most) one hundred and fifty people, that still means that only one-thousand-and-fifty Numenoreans were able to land, and subsequently start the new kingdoms. Of course, the documentation covering the events are rather wanting, and state only that Elendil made it safely to Middle Earth with six other ships and then begun the two kingdoms. Of course, this is dosen't say how quickly it happened, but one can be lulled into the assumption that it happened almost instantaneously. This brings me to another point, if the Numenoreans were to successfully start their kingdoms, at least some mingling would have had to have occured with those already living in Middle Earth. Thus, right from the outset, the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor must have not been of completely pure Numenorean blood, and the diminishing of the race must have started almost immediately! Also, what aid did the Elves of Eriador give to the Men?

[Saraphim]

Elendil, which means something along the lines of "Elf-Friend", was already friendly with Gil-Galad and the elves at Lindon. The elven-king would have probably given help by means of food and supplies, and possibly even labor.

Like you said, Osse, there would not have been very many people in the ships, but there were, like you also said, many settlers already on Middle-Earth. Most of these would have probably intermarried and thus produced many others not of purely Numenorean blood, but I do not see the Numenorean refugees being snobbish about who was allowed to settle in thier new kingdoms.

I don't think it took minutes to create the kingdoms, either. Rome wasn't built in a day, and niether was Osgiliath. It takes quite a bit of stone to make one of those cities, and there were many of them, not including Minas Anor (Tirith), which must have taken generations to create.

Thus, right from the outset, the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor must have not been of completely pure Numenorean blood, and the diminishing of the race must have started almost immediately!

Exactly. In the Lord of the Rings, I remember this being a dillema among the Stewards, since thier bloodline was diminishing so quickly and the amount of non-related, Numenorean-decended women for the Stewards to marry had all but disappeared. With the return of the King (no pun intented), and his marriage to one of the elder kin (notwithstanding that she wasn't technically full-blooded elf herself), this would have boosted the failing bloodline.

[Mithalwen]

Numenoreans started to build permanent havens as early as 1200SA and a thousand years later Pelargir and Imbar were built as the chief haven and great fortress of the Numenoreans in Middle Earth ...... So there were potentially 2000 year old communities of Numenoreans in Middle Earth when Elendil and co arrived... It is in the nature of things that the first Mariners may have taken local wives but as communities became more established it is not unlikely that Numenorean families may have "emigrated" and so the Numenorean strain may have been more concentrated rather than diluted over time ... especially since the disparity of lifespan would have meant that they would have preferred spouses of Numenorean descent - especially as the Numenoreans don't seem to have remarried after widowhood.... So it is quite likely that while the numenoreans and non numenoreans may have lived together peacefully they may not have intermarried to such a great extent once the communities were established and especially when "refugees" from the rebellion arrived ..... remember it was a thousand year between the start of the rebellion and the down fall.... The decline would have been more marked after the carnage of the last alliance....... However it can be seen that some communities held out longest and lifespan was the indicator - I can't quite remember who - maybe Beregond ? said that it was uncommon to reach eighty and still be hale unless you were from a "pure blood" family - The Princes of Dol Amroth all make 100 or thereabouts ... and while Imrahill is only a few years younger than Theoden - he is portrayed as a man in his prime..... The men of Dol Amroth also retain the classic Numenorean appearance ..... height as well as longevity being a Numenorean trait.....

I think some of the regions had more non numenoreans... but I can't find that now .......

Faramir is an interesting case - he has the typical Numenorean traits of nobility of character and bearing and height - and he has a conspicuously long life reaching about 120 - which seems to be more than could have expected from his genetic legacy even allowing for the fact that he is the child of a Steward and a daughter of the "ultra pure" house of Dol Amroth. Maybe a small part of the "grace" given to the first Numenoreans was given to Faramir as a reward for his small but significant role in the success of the mission of the Ringbearer? I like to think so....

[Osse]

Very dilligent points Mith. The havens of both Umbar and Pelargir were well established at the time of the Landing. There is nothing to say that their populations were not sufficient to supplement the building of the other two realms. However, these settlements were not neglected, especially Umbar, which continued as it had always done. Also, the blood mixing was quite heavy in these regions. What I am getting at is that these regions were towns to themselves, and went on as they had done after Elendil founded Arnor and Gondor. There cannot possibly have been enough people (at least of high-Numenorean descent) to populate two other realms as well as the original ones. No doubt tools and masons were used to build the bones of the realms... ie Minas Ithil and Isengard which were said to have been built in the first year of the occupation. Everything, seems to move a bit fast...

My other point is this; how does Elendil manage to gather such an immense host (many tens of thousands of men) in only ten years. It is truly astounding. I am very interesting in hearing what other Barrow Downers have to say on this issue...

[Mithalwen]

Oh I think you may have made the mistake I did on a RPG, necessitating a major bio rewrite..... there is a hundred and ten years between the downfall and the alliance......

Also the REalms in exile would have absorbed existing communities..... I mean I don't know how long there was a community at Bree but while it had been part of the North Kingdom, there is little evidence of numenorean blood in it's inhabitants and the rangers were in the time of the LOTR clearly a race apart.....

However I think it is quite clear that the Numenoreans spread them selves pretty thinly especially in the north where no Numenorean communities survived the king and even in Gondor the populace was fragile - hence the willingness to give Calenardhon to the northmen.........

[Osse]

Ah yes... i see now! Silly me... it is indeed 110 years between the founding of the realms and the defeat of sauron. That opens up my doubts somewhat, thank you Mith... We can just assume that the Numenoreans were all very young

[kboleen]

Elendil "founded" the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor, he didn't necessarily build them into the powerhouses they were at the peak. Time did that. His heirs ruled for 2000 years after his and Isildur's death before the last one was killed in battle and the the Stewards took power.

[Osse]

On the contrary kboleen, it is apparent from the timelines of the period that the physical strength of the kingdoms was begun as soon as they were founded... this being both the population and infrastrucute. This we can discover from two things - the fortresses / cities of Minas Ithil and Isengard were both created the year after the ships landed. Not only would this have taken large amounts of materials, but would have taken a far more important commodity - man power.

Right from the outset the population grew. However kboleen, I do see your point, however, Tolkien clearly states that after the fall of Elendil, the splendour and strength of the kingdoms decreased. This can either be taken in terms of integrity, or physical might. I always took the rule of Elendil to be the pinacle of the realms' evolution, and that though the borders may have been spread, both the man power and integrity of those dwelling in the realms would never match that of the time of Elendil. Remember that almost all the male folk of the entire Numenorean race was wiped out in the Last Alliance.

However, i see your point, and perhaps i was always under a false assumption. Though the realms were developed for the next 2000 odd years, i never deemed them anywhere near the brief splendour that was apparantly experienced in the first 200 odd years. Statements of the time always compare the shortcomings of the realms in comparison to those early days.

[Voralphion]

I am not sure about the situation in Arnor, but there were already many numenoreans living in the area that became gondor at the downfall of numenor.

Long before in the days of their power the mariners of Numenor established a haven and strong places about the mouths of the Anduin, in despite of Sauron in the Black Land that lay nigh upon the east. In later days to this haven came only the Faithful of Numenor, and many therfore of the folk of the coastlands in that region were in whole or part akin to the Elf-Friends and the people of Elendil, and they welcomed his sons.

Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age

The ships of Isildur and Anarion didn't carry all the people of Gondor, there were many there already who welcomed Elendil's sons as their kings. This was probably the same for Arnor, with some of the Faithful who had previously left Numenor living in the north near Gil Galad.
Elendil and his sons didn't completely establish new realms, they joined and took the rule of existing realms.

[Osse]

Thank you for supplying that quote! My copy of the Silm. is somewhere buried under many boxes in a garage many miles from here.

This seems to have cleared up my issues with this topic. Thank you to all who contributed to this thread!

Regards,
Osse

[Nirvana II]

isnt it possible that the ships were incredibly large?????

[Osse]

It is not inconceivable! Imagine: Thousands of trees felled, linen in every room, and ensuites in the upper deck. Enjoy deck games and open air - Join an Elendil Cruise today!!

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by Nirvana II

isnt it possible that the ships were incredibly large?????

They were extremely large. How big were you thinking?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by symestreem

They were extremely large. How big were you thinking?

I doubt the ensuites were necessary - everyone in Middle Earth seems teflon coated - the goodies anyway - and noone ever needed the loo...... sorry..... I have an unhealthy interest in elvish physiology ....

On a more serious level I an reading this book on early chinese exploration and they had really massive ships ...... unbelievably huge .... made the "Endeavour" look like something you'd float ona pond.........

[Nirvana II]

Originally Posted by symestreem

They were extremely large. How big were you thinking?

big enough to hold the basis of an entire civilization..or just enough people to be able to rebuild a kingdom...remember there were only 9 ships...what is it with the number 9 in Middle Earth?

[symestreem]

They are described as 'great ships' several times, and it is implied that they are big enough for someone of high rank to live there comfortably (Aldarion). Try looking in Aldarion and Erendis and Akallabeth.

[Osse]

Great ships can mean that the either they were great in comparison to the craft of other races, or that they were truly huge... i'd go for the former! Just because a ship is large, dosn't mean that it could carry many people... okay for arguments sake let's say that they had more than one deck, and many masts... three decks sounds good, and three masts....

A ship that size... hmmm... you'd hope to have about 200 passengers and 70 or so crew! That's still not many.


If however they were huge (bigger than anything man has been able to create) they could obviously hold much more than that! Say... 500 passengers and 160 crew. That ship would be absolutely enormous!



And as for the Endevour... it was small enough to sail on lakes... it wasn't that big. The explorers often chose speed over bulk - they didn't need to carry cargo, just provisions.

[Mithalwen]

The book I am reading is 1421- The year China discovered the world.... they had ships whose complement topped 1K!!!!!!!

And Endeavour, well.... maybe not on an English lake..... Windemere maybe..... but it was designed to go in low water because of Cook's surveying purposes... although nearly sunk by Joseph Banks' modifications for the second voyage......

[Lalwendë]

The ships may well have been exceptionally large - I can't remember the exact words, but in Akallabeth it says that Ar-Pharazon's 'flagship' was huge - being as big as a castle seems to stick in my mind. So, there could have been hundreds just on one ship. A BD-er who is less lazy might like to look it up.

The Endeavour? Small? It didn't seem that way when I went on it (the replica I hasten to add, I am not over 200 years old)! I think they crammed something like at least 200 men on board. It was converted from a coal carrying boat. There's a nautical term for these which I've forgotten, and it's going to annoy me now. These were designed to be shallow bottomed. That's probably why they chose to convert a ship, if it was intended to go into shallower waters.

[Mithalwen]

OK this has hit on one of my anorak topics - The Endeavour was a barque..... a Whitby Barque which Cook who was raised in that area was familiar with and suggested for that purpose ...so I meant it was designed for getting in close to shore rather than specifically for surveying.

So the chinese ships of 250 years earlier were dramatically larger.... but I am sure aculture as developed as Numenor's could deliver the goods.....


http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/co...EvidenceID=168

[Lalwendë]

Thanks for that - now I can stop feeling cross with myself! I exaggerated though, The Endeavour carried 94 men - I obviously got a little too over-awed - I've seen it sailing at Whitby three times as well as actually going onboard. The webpage is www.hmbarkendeavour.com.au if anyone is thinking 'what the hell....?'

Anyway, another thing I remember is that Elendil's fleet rescued large numbers of children - surely a greater guarantee of a larger future population? Big ships, lots of children, and an existing population of 'ex-pats', all these would add up to a potentially large population.

[Noxomanus]

On top of that, post-wartime people allways breed like rabbits..

[Osse]

Not always... especially on the losing side. Imagine; the roman's have just conquered a country - it's full of famine, homelessness and until they decide it's in their interests to occupy properly, the population dwindles a LOT...

If there are no men around, there tend to be no little men around (despite what you amazonians say).

However, I daresay you are right, and the populations in the case of the Numenoreans would have increased (or replenished) rapidly after a war.

[Lalwendë]

It may have been a polygamous society, with each man taking more than one wife. Although I doubt it, because I don't get the impression that Tolkien would have 'approved' of that sort of thing!

[Osse]

Indeed! I seem to remember some reference or other in one of his works (possibly UT in Aldarion and Erendis) about Numenoreans only taking one wives, unlike those other 'crude' races...


Good point though, this still however, would not raise the population growth that much.

[Mithalwen]

And even less likely to have carried out the rape and pillage that usually accompanies conflict .......... to ensure repopulation with the seed of the conquerers .....

The Numenoreans, I believe did not remarry because they modelled themselves on the Eldar who did not remarry (with the exception of Finwe) because death was not a permanent separation between the spouses since both were bound to the world as long as it lasted and bodily death was merely a "blip". I get the idea remarriage was allowed in "lesser" communities - in the Appendices it says that Theoden "did not wed again" after his wife died in childbirth which surely implies that it would have been an option.

Also the Numenoreans lived a long time and the women remained capable of bearing children a long time so they could have had quite sizeable families eeeeek.

Amazonian? Valkyrie maybe - Hojotoho!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

The Númenoreans had really big ships.

...a vision came to [Aldarion] of a mighty vessel like a castle with tall masts and great sails like clouds, bearing men and stores enough for a town.

(UT II 2)

And since the Númenorean exiles were concentrated in cities/towns - e.g. Fornost, Annúminas, Osgiliath, etc. -, the nine ships would have sufficed.


Aside from Pelargir, there are also Númenoreans in what would become Arnor.

...thence many [of the Faithful] set sail to Middle-earth seeking the northern coasts where they might speak still with the Eldar in the kingdom of Gil-galad. This was known to the kings, but they hindered it not, so long as the Elendili departed from their lands as and did not return...

(Akallabêth)

So not only Gondor had pre-Fall Númenorean populations, but Arnor also. Alas, they arrived later, so they had less time to multiply before the War of the Last Alliance.

[Osse]

Thank you Nilpaurion!

I regret not researching deeper, delving into the innards of the texts, but I had the idea in my mind already... i guess I was just ready to doubt.


Thank you all, for contributing to this thread!