Saruman's Ring

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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What is up w/ it ? He was a skilled maia of Aule and should have been no slouch when it came to such things but his ring does not seem to be great enough to keep Gandalf from stripping him of his place in the order but seemingly his 'power' as a Maia.

What say ye?

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[enep]

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Re: Saruman's Ring

Excuse me if I'm ignorant, lindil (which I probably am <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> ) but I didn't know Saruman had a ring. Still, Saruman was ashamed and dishonored, forsaken by the Valar, so I doubt no matter how powerful this ring was he couldn't of stopped Gandalf. Fate, perhaps?



- enep</p>

[Falmar]

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Re: Saruman's Ring

At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf mentions that Saruman had a ring on his finger. Nothing is said about its powers.
It is stated elsewhere that Saruman had made a study of the Great Rings and there making. If Saruman's ring didn't seem to help him much vs.Gandalf, it should be remembered that Gandalf himself possessed Narya, one of the three Elven Rings.

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[Sharkû]

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Re: Saruman's Ring

He also calls himself, among his other titles, 'Saruman Ring-Maker'.

On the power of his ring one can only specualte (and I never avoid a speculation).
Gandalf was an encourager, a kindler of fire within people. It fit him that he wore Narya.
If we compare both Saruman and Gandalf on this ground, we might call Saruman a seducer, or at least a rhetorical propagator. Did the ring work as a focus for his voice, or did it enforce his command over his orcs, perhaps?

Unlike the elven rings of preservation, Curunír's would have been one of reform, of change, or even new creation. It could also be possible that it was only complimentary to these, that it did not stand for raising new things, but destroying old. Was the Shire ravaged with the aid of the ring?
Considering that Saruman, as a Maia and disciple of Aule, should probably have been superior in skill to the elven smiths, he could only his lack of time for research and forging for the fact that he did not forge a second Ruling Ring.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000003>Sharku</A> at: 3/11/01 2:16:23 pm

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Saruman's Ring

Also, it should be remembered that Sauron's Ring was as powerful as it was because of the native strength of its creator, with which it was imbued. Saruman's native power was inferior even to Gandalf's (especially following his return from death), let alone Sauron's. No matter how great his skill, Saruman could never have made a Ring to rival Sauron's.

Actually, this makes me wonder -- if the power of Sauron's Ring comes from some of his own power that he passed into it, where did the power of the Elven Rings come from?



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[lindil]

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The elements themselves

a few thoughts ,
Maybe the powercame from Fire,Water and Air?
we now know that the latent power in 'simple' substances is immense, so perhaps the gwaith -i- mirdain tapped into this elemental level and then [again possibly] as a group created the rings. A group being more powerful perhaps than any individual elf-smith , keeping in mind also that Celebrimbor was the only son of Curufin who is said to have nherited most of his father's skill, of which even a small bit was immense I would imagine.


Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Mister Underhill]

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Re: The elements themselves

Interesting theory, lindil. So now we come to the question of the other Rings of Power. Do we know what powers these may have possessed? Sauron obviously managed to put some sort of &quot;virus&quot; into the making of these to corrupt them. The only reference I'm aware of to any other Ring's power was one of the Dwarvish Rings, the one worn by Thrór. When he passed it down to Thráin, he said this of it: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'This may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold.'<hr></blockquote>What do you make of this statement?


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[Fingolfin]

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??????

I thought the names of the elven rings were homages to the silmarils not reflections of their power.

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[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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Dwarf rings

I will have to chew on it.
I just finished reading my daughter 'the mirror of Galadriel' and the Elf -Ring there seems to be behind several things that happen although it is hard to say what is of the Rings , what is her innate power ad what is a combination of the 2.
She 'seemed to grow in stature [or size ?]'
she became srrounded by white light.
she appeared momentarily ',beautiful beyond enduring and worshipful' or some thing close.

So it is hard to say, again what 'power' comes from what.
Although now that I think of it Glorfindel also shown w/ light - sans ring.
She used it to erect a sort of Girdle of Galdriel which kept Sauron's eye out at least if not his Orcs ['curse their foul feet on Nimrodel's clean waters'] so it was less powerfiul than melians which kept out all but beren's doom. Or got folks l0st to the point of death.
But the Haze of Gold and the near cessation of time and the exp[erience of the sun being younger, all these belong to the ring


For the dwarves we know that they increased lust for gold [thrain and thror] and left them restless, I would imagine it also increased in a subtly poisoned way their creative skills , possibly tainting the arkenstone [if thror had fashioned it himself], and magnifying Thorin's lust for it and willingness to assault bilbo over it, a real guess that one is though.

It is said a ring lay at the foundation of each dwarf hoard of old [appendices? -council of Elrond?] and this brought dragons as often a not as dragons were said to ave consumed 3 or 4 .

so sauron's virus [which may not have effected Durin's clan] seemed to be active although how the rings worked I have not read. But there are still quite a few footnotes in HoME I have not read much less, 6-9 which may have variant texts that offer clues. Anyone know?

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Orald]

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Re: Dwarf rings

Dragons consumed three or four, eh? What do you think would have happened if Smaug would have eaten Biblo, ring and all? That is if Bilbo would have taken the ring off for some stupid reason.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Salocin]

Must I remind you all that the all the Rings of Power (except the One) were made by the elven smiths? That include the three for elves, the seven for dwarfs, and nine for men. Sauron had a hand in the making of all but the three, which is why they do not corupt their bearer. (they are still bound to the one though. Sauron apperently knew how to put something in the One that gave it control over ALL the Rings of Power made by Celebrimbor.

By the way, there are atleast 3 other threads on Saruman's ring. If you would like to see them this one has links to the others. (The best one is the first Legolas points to)

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Salocin ]

Consider the fact that Sarumans ring was not made by him. But was actually a reward from Sauron for his service, probably one of the seven, because wasnt the council of Elrond told that the dwarves had been told that rings of old would be given as a reward for loyalty to Sauron (or something to that effect)so maybee Saruman recieved one!!

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Phillips ]

[Voralphion]

Consider the fact that Sarumans ring was not made by him. But was actually a reward from Sauron for his service,

It says nowhere that Sauraman's ring was made by Sauron. If it was however, why would he call himself Sauraman,ring-maker. Sauraman in his long work studying Sauron's craft was trying to find out how the rings of power were made. He didn't fully find out how this was done so his ring didn't have any real power. He wore and boasted about it because he deluded himself into thinking himself as powerful as Sauron, which wasn't the case. I think Sauraman and his ring was just a case of trying to appear more important and powerful than he really was.

[Salocin]

Consider the fact that Sarumans ring was not made by him. But was actually a reward from Sauron for his service, probably one of the seven, because wasnt the council of Elrond told that the dwarves had been told that rings of old would be given as a reward for loyalty to Sauron (or something to that effect)so maybee Saruman recieved one!!

I really doubt this was the case. First of all, Sauron had changed his plan from giving people rings and controling themto getting back all the rings and using their power more directly to control EVERYONE. He had gone through a lot of trouble and had finally gotten all of the seven that were not consumed by dragons, so I do not think he would then give one away again. Secondly, the power of the dwarf rings was different than that of the others. They did not extend life (not that Saruman needed this being a maia), did not grant invisibility, and were mainly used to sort of "clone" gold to make more of it. I do not think this is what Saruman wanted is a ring. Lastly, I doubt Saruman would of accepted of of the nine, the seven, or even the three, since he new there users could all be controlled by Sauron if he had the one. He was not aiming to be a mind slave or the greatest of the nazgul but to be a new Lord of Darkness by acquiring the One ring himself.
My entire theory of Saruman's ring and the powers of the Istari in general can be found here

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=000278

I will not repeat it here for fear of getting in trouble for posting many long posts saying the same thing.

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Salocin ]

[Manwe Sulimo]

That's sorta pointless, isn't it? You're not repeating the same things, you're just bringing the same arguments back in different threads...clogging the board, if you will?

Please don't drag anymore really old ones up, unless it's another topic. Otherwise, keep it all in one thread.

[-Imrahil-]

The powers the ring had were never mentioned. Falmar is right in saying that it was mentioned by Gandalf at the council. Merely mentioned, nothing more unfortunately.

I too have been curious as to the answer of this question. Obviously however the ring did not have much power, or Saruman would have been able to stop the Ents attack.

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ]

[Salocin]

Thank you for the clarification on repeating things Manwe Sulimo. Here is my argument in full. I think it will answer a few of the questions that have been asked about Saruman's ring.

Maia seem to be able to put power into objects which seem to amplify the power. The most obvious example of this is The One Ring, into which Sauron placed a great portion of his power and this partially accounts for why he is more powerful than other maia, including the Istari and Balrogs.(Another reason for this is that Melkor put a lot of his power in his servants to make them more powerful)
I think that although the Valar probably gave the Istari extra power, they either put some power into the staffs or made the Istari put some of their own power into them. This would most likely significantly increase the Istari's power provided they had the staff. The power of the staves, unlike the Rings of Power, could probably only be harnessed by the Wise, since they were made with the intention to aid the Istari, not rule the weak.

This would raise the question of why Gandalf had his staff after his imprisonment in Orthanc. My theory is that Saruman had the power to imprison Gandalf but had neither the athority nor the power, having fallen from his original status as the White Wizard, to take away his staff. Later, when Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff, he has been sent back to middle earth as the White Wizard and, in a very confusing passage right after he reunites with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimly, he reveals that he is, in a way, Saruman while Saruman is not. Having userpt Saruman as the leader of the Istari, he had the athority and the power to break the staff of the fallen Saruman.

As for Sarumans ring, I think he probably put as much power into it as he could, which I do not think could have been that much if he had already had to put most of it into his staff. I would agree that the main power he put into it was the power of his voice and abilty to command others. This could explain why it was so powerful and why it was essentially the only power remaining to him once his staff was broken, provided he still had his ring.

I am afraid I do not see the argument for the need of Maia to be attached phisically to middle earth in order to have power. The phisical bodies of the Maia seem to be governed by the same rules as those of the Elves, they are immortal from disease and old age but not from violent death or death by grief. When they die their souls go back to the Imortal Lands. Obviously the souls of fallen Maia do not go to Valinor. I believe Mr.Tolkien makes it quite clear that their souls are rejected by the west and are forced to follow in the footsteps of Melkor into banishment in the outer darkness in the passages describing the destruction of The Ring, and consicuently Sauron's death, and the death of Saruman.

[Eru]

I didn't think Sauron died. He was merely desrtoyed, his power stripped when the ring was destroyed.

i remember reading somewhere that he became a shadow, gnawing on himself. o, that have been Harry Potter.

Lol. sorry. anyways, how was sauron killed? that's all i would like to know.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Sauron poured his essence into the Ring, binding his "life-force" to it. When it was destroyed, he died.

[Tirinor]

Maia seem to be able to put power into objects which seem to amplify the power. The most obvious example of this is The One Ring, into which Sauron placed a great portion of his power and this partially accounts for why he is more powerful than other maia, including the Istari and Balrogs.

I've always thought that the power Sauron put into the ring was for focusing purposes, not as amplification. It's design was primarily to rule the other rings, find them, bind them, etc. Sauron's power for destruction came from an undermined world leadership enabled by the designs of the ring. He had a good plan, not more power. Sauron, with the ring, is 100% Sauron, not 110%.

I think that Sauron's superior power (to balrogs and wizards) was inherent. Although equal in regards to station, the maiar were unequal in degrees of wisdom, workmanship, etc. Just like how all Elves are equal, but not equally gifted, or even the Valar.

Sauron's advantage was also that he was functioning without restraints. The wizards were functioning under guidlines of restaint as mandated by the valar in UT. Plus, destruction is always easier than maintenance or creation.

[Salocin]

how was sauron killed?

He was killed, destroyed, banished, what ever you want to call it, when the Ring was unmade at the end of the War of the Ring. His spirit was then banished to the outermost darkness to receive a similar fate as that of Melkor.

[doug*platypus]

Going back to the original question (seems like half of my posts start out with this line!), I don't think that Saruman's ring would have any say in that particular matter. Saruman's staff, and his position in the "Order" (presumably the Istari) were based on a mandate given to him by Manwe and the Valar. In the brief time when Gandalf has left his body, and strays far on strange paths, it is my opinion that Manwe and the Valar give him new authority. They send him back as the White, with the power to expel Saruman from the Order on their behalf, if he continues to rebel against their will. Whatever power Saruman's ring does have, surely it can't stop the Valar taking back the power they originally gave to Saruman.

I would also have to doubt that Saruman's ring could come close to the powers of the twenty Great Rings. I don't think time periods are specified, but it is made obvious that the Gwaith-i-Mirdain were forging 'magic' rings for many years before Celebrimbor perfected the art. And all except for the Three and the One were collaborations, made with the skill, knowledge and expertise of more than one person. I don't think that even a Maia of Aule could learn much more from studying books than a crude knowledge of the craft.