Narya and its effect on Gandalf? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ancalagon'sFire · 06-14-2002, 04:27 AM

Cirdan the Shipwright gave Narya to Gandalf upon his arrival to Middle-Earth.

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'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I well dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.'
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The Silmarillion - The Rings of Power

Though Gandalf himself states in Moria;

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`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
`
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The Fellowship of the Ring - The Bridge of Khazad Dum

In a description of Mithrandir it states;

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Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the Enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within.
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Unfinished Tales - The Istari

Yet throughout the books references are also made to Gandalds skill with Fire;

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and the old man was Gandalf the Wizard, whose fame in the Shire was due mainly to his skill with fires, smokes, and lights.

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The Fellowship of the Ring - A Long Expected Party

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But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab hi, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead.
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Just at that moment all the lights in the cavern went out, and the great fire went off poof! into a tower of blue glowing smoke, right up to the roof, that scattered piercing white sparks all among the goblins
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The Hobbit - Over Hill and Under Hill

'Why his he bringing all this up,' you might ask? Well, what I wonder is; What exactly is Gandalfs ability with fire as a wizard? Is it enhanced by The Ring of Fire, or does that only instil an ability to gave men and Elves courage and strength? What exactly is The Flame of Anor and how does he weild it?

I would point out that although I am certain Servant of the Secret Fire possibly relates to the Flame Imperishable, it still needs stronger evidence. What isn't explained or is as apparent is the Flame of Anor, which is most definetely not the referring to the F.I.

There, that should keep you going for a while...........or maybe not?

__________________
I have posted this same question elsewhere in case you have seen it posted before!

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-14-2002, 10:07 AM

I expect that Gandalf has a particular affinity with fire, and that this was one of the reasons why Cirdan entrusted him with the custody of Narya. From the descriptions of Nenya and Vilya in the Silmarillion, we can see the influence of the Three on their surroundings, but to my mind the implication is always that certain inherent characteristics of the bearer alter the power and nature of the rings' effects.
This would explain why Gandalf was entrusted with the care of the Ring of Fire even though Saruman was the first of the Istari to arrive in Middle Earth (it's possible that Cirdan also saw something in the earlier arrival that disturbed him).

I meant to go into a little more detail, but time has caught me again.

Heen-1 · 06-14-2002, 06:15 PM

Ok we're on the subject.....

He says you cannot pass flame of udun...thats in mordor right inside of the Morannon isnt it?and balrogs were the servants of Melkor and there was no mordor (hence no Udun) at that time.....and Sauron couldnt control the balrogs, so how were they the flame of Udun?

well here, i guess this would help, but what does Udun mean?

and maybe instead of the imperishible flame they just meant the Sun.

Tigerlily Gamgee · 06-14-2002, 07:05 PM

These quotes come from The Tolkien Companion...

Quote:

All that can be said is that the Wizards together formed an Order, sworn to the service of "the Secret Fire," a symbolic representation of the Sun, thus doubtless of the One Himself.

So, it could be assumed that they all have some control over fire and flames, but the section continues...

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All were wise, and each had some speciality or particular interest...

This statement brings about the thought that fire could be Gandalf's "specialty" just as Saruman can manipulate with his voice and speech. Although, I find it interesting that the section about Gandalf in this book does not even mention Narya. Also, by the way, Udun is "hell"

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The name given by the Grey-elves and the Dunedain to the Underworld.

So, when Gandalf refers to the flame of Udun he is referring to hell and not Mordor.
Well, I hope I've been somewhat of a help here. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Frodo Baggins · 06-14-2002, 08:10 PM

What about the other two rings?? What did they do???
I know Vilya was the greatest, was Ninya the least or were Narya and Ninya equal??

Tigerlily Gamgee · 06-14-2002, 09:58 PM

Nenya is the Ring of Water, also called the "Ring of Adamant."
Vilya is the Ring of Firament.

06-14-2002, 04:27 AM	#1
Ancalagon'sFire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 41	Narya and its effect on Gandalf? Cirdan the Shipwright gave Narya to Gandalf upon his arrival to Middle-Earth. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I well dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Silmarillion - The Rings of Power Though Gandalf himself states in Moria; quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- `You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.' ` -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Fellowship of the Ring - The Bridge of Khazad Dum In a description of Mithrandir it states; quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the Enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfinished Tales - The Istari Yet throughout the books references are also made to Gandalds skill with Fire; quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and the old man was Gandalf the Wizard, whose fame in the Shire was due mainly to his skill with fires, smokes, and lights. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Fellowship of the Ring - A Long Expected Party quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab hi, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just at that moment all the lights in the cavern went out, and the great fire went off poof! into a tower of blue glowing smoke, right up to the roof, that scattered piercing white sparks all among the goblins -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Hobbit - Over Hill and Under Hill 'Why his he bringing all this up,' you might ask? Well, what I wonder is; What exactly is Gandalfs ability with fire as a wizard? Is it enhanced by The Ring of Fire, or does that only instil an ability to gave men and Elves courage and strength? What exactly is The Flame of Anor and how does he weild it? I would point out that although I am certain Servant of the Secret Fire possibly relates to the Flame Imperishable, it still needs stronger evidence. What isn't explained or is as apparent is the Flame of Anor, which is most definetely not the referring to the F.I. There, that should keep you going for a while...........or maybe not? __________________ I have posted this same question elsewhere in case you have seen it posted before! __________________ Threads you should make a point of reading!

06-14-2002, 10:07 AM	#2
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	I expect that Gandalf has a particular affinity with fire, and that this was one of the reasons why Cirdan entrusted him with the custody of Narya. From the descriptions of Nenya and Vilya in the Silmarillion, we can see the influence of the Three on their surroundings, but to my mind the implication is always that certain inherent characteristics of the bearer alter the power and nature of the rings' effects. This would explain why Gandalf was entrusted with the care of the Ring of Fire even though Saruman was the first of the Istari to arrive in Middle Earth (it's possible that Cirdan also saw something in the earlier arrival that disturbed him). I meant to go into a little more detail, but time has caught me again. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

06-14-2002, 08:10 PM	#5
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	What about the other two rings?? What did they do??? I know Vilya was the greatest, was Ninya the least or were Narya and Ninya equal?? __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

06-14-2002, 09:58 PM	#6
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	<font color=gold>Nenya is the Ring of Water, also called the "Ring of Adamant." Vilya is the Ring of Firament. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

06-14-2002, 06:15 PM	#3
Heen-1 Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 27	Ok we're on the subject..... He says you cannot pass flame of udun...thats in mordor right inside of the Morannon isnt it?and balrogs were the servants of Melkor and there was no mordor (hence no Udun) at that time.....and Sauron couldnt control the balrogs, so how were they the flame of Udun? well here, i guess this would help, but what does Udun mean? and maybe instead of the imperishible flame they just meant the Sun.