Are You Writing Serious Fantasy?

[bombur]

Yes. I have to admit that the kind of fantasy that includes the issues of liberty etc. CAN be written. Yet I doubt it’ll be good. Of good fantasy approaching modern time I have read Orson Scott Cards maker books, and they had lots of political charge between the lines, but even in them the real deep down basic charge was the controversy of the unmaker, not that of politics. Let us remember that liberty is like the elefant of the story touched by four blind men; "it is like a wall, it is like a rope, It is like a tree, it is like a leaf..." I might even call Cards story the exemption that validifies the rule.

Of urban fantasy I do not think I even know what that means. If it is something akin to shadowrun RPG is meant, then I doubt that I’d want to know more.

The maker Alvin trilogy is a good example of what I meant with the good and Evil theme. It pretty much embodies my idea of the ”Big Bad Evil In The Shadows.” We of cource might call the charachters evil or good but MOST are not. They are under the influence of the unmaker. The existance of one True Evil suffices for black and whiteness in my opinion required by fantasy. Rest of the charachters even ”in the dark side” need not be Evil. But there has to be ”the dark side.” That is what I think.

Eols example, the mists of avalon, is a great book. Unfortunately I just have not been counting it as a fantasy, so I did not think about it when I wrote so absolutely of the need for Evil. I think I have pretty much been counting it to the same category with Sinuhe the egyptian, Clan of the cavebear, Name of the rose etc. etc. I've been considering historical fiction. Even the magic in it interacts so neatly with the forces of nature and that what truly is (/was/was believed to be), that it has not disrupted this line of thought.

”Sequels are always possible, ” said littlemans poet.

Yes I have to admit that. Sigourney Weawer said that of cource she’ll be ready to play in one more alien movie, if they somehow manage to patch Ripley back together after she jumped into molten steel. I think she might have meant it as a joke but she ended up comign back as a clone.

But I think ”the return of the son of the revenge of the Thulsa Doom” – phenomena is rather bad taste. Look at Tolkien. That story is OVER as much as a story can be in the end of the LOTR. This does not mean that you cannot have more stuff of it, but it’ll be appendixes and going back to the history of it.

The why(s) of fantasy:

Why we write fantasy?

Fantasy is escapism of cource. But why do we desire to escape this world?

Or in other words, what is it that we wish to escape in this world? Anwser this gentlemen and anyone can easily tell you what kind of place you desire to escape to?

Some of the anwsers are simple. At least Tolkien wished to give escape tho pure world where meadows are not littered by the smoke and coaldust from trains passing through them.

Perhaps we deeply desire for a land where there is magic, escape from the constricting laws of nature that dictate that mere amount of ones will change nothing and that to set fire one needs matches and to make a fortress out of mountain range one needs a shovel and a bit of time. This is escape from realism to romanticm, land of wannabes and wannados.

I have identified in me yet another desire for escape. As an political activist and idealist I work for better world and sometimes nothing changes and sometimes mistakes are made and sometimes bad things are acchieved and sometimes good. Realization that the worlds rulers are like us, blind mice, is painful.

Oh that there were a world where man could identify the army of the dark lord, and stand in the line against it to write on ones shield, I witheld.


Janne Harju'

[littlemanpoet]

Is it agreeable to all to say that Tolkien's concept and definition of "fairy tale" is one aspect of fantasy? Seems to me that fairy tale is in fact a particular kind of fantasy, which is Tolkien's real subject in "On Fairie Stories".

What fantasy stories can you point to that show that a "most evil" opponent ... is not necessary?

Give examples of fantasy stories that do not have the "evil" element [and] [are] not serious but [are] still good [fantasy].

I wanted to get those two challenges together to discern the difference between them. I was having trouble with that. I hope my editing for the sake of making sense (to me) out of it is okay with you. Whereas fantasy can function without the deep evil in the background, fairie tale cannot. One example of a well-written (so far) dulogy (2) if Meghan Whalen Turner's "Thief" and "Queen of Askalon" (I think that's the title of the second one. There is no "evil", but there are three nations tied by race, land, trade, and deities, for an interesting power struggle. Whereas there is no deep evil, there is a nation that is power hungry and wants to become an empire at the expense of the other two. Serious? I thought so. Delightful? Definitely. Highly recommended. In the tradition of Tolkien? Not really. Good fantasy? You bet. I hope that answers your question (as well as I know how), Eol.

T.H. White's Once and Future King ... Is it no longer really fantasy, but an elegant, lovely and worthwhile parody of fantasy?

I'd say that it is fantasy, but a particular kind, which Tolkien would have called a "romance" in a broader sense than is generally used today. The Romance came into being (and fashion) in the 1300s, with all the stories about King Arthur and his court (actually based on Celtic myth). It's not very popular these days, as such. Knight in shining armor, helpless maiden-princess-queen, cuckold king, affair between knight and lady, heroic bastard sons, etc. You can still find derivatives of it all over the place, but only ever as part of something else like a mystery, action thriller, you name it.

Gotta run.

[Nar]

LMP: Yes, I've always been bothered by the Arthurian legends myself-- they never appealed to me much. Whatever it is I find in some stories and legends I don't find there. I found Once and Future King charming as a novel, greatly enjoyed it, but it doesn't fit me as LotR does-- hard to say why.

Bombur:

Realization that the worlds rulers are like us, blind mice, is painful.

What a lovely phrase, Bombur: sad, wise, heartfelt and well-put. It feels very alive to me. Something will come of it for you; or has already.

I would argue that reading or otherwise experiencing fantasy that has real value is something beyond escape: it's a contemplative act.

Contemplative acts: meditation, service, pilgrimage, prayer, sacrifice, counseling, voluntary ordeals (fasting, climbing mountain, walking on hot coals, surfing), ritual or spontaneous spiritual observance, bar brawls (well, maybe not bar brawls), dancing, family gatherings, friend gatherings, responsive debate (truth-seeking debate, not victory-seeking debate-- like this thread!), holidays, long thoughtful walks ... the telling of stories and listening to same ...

Any contemplative act can result in far-reaching changes to a person's understanding and mode of living-- if the challenge of contemplation is met with strength of purpose and intellectual integrity. The right story under the right circumstances can trigger successful contemplation.

The mind is confronted by something that cannot be born. The mind longs for escape. The mind moves into a story for the purpose of escape, but the deeper patterns of the story fit into the mind like a lock to a key and the mind reaches an understanding during this interlude of escape that it could reach no other way.

Use another analogy. Is storytelling the anesthesia, relieving pain only? Or is it the surgery, saving the life and painfully reordering the body so that natural processes can heal it? Merely escape is merely anesthesia; I would argue that storytelling at the level of LotR or similarly deep-impact books is not merely anesthesia but also surgery. I find this personally true in my own life; I am not reasoning from rhetoric but from my own experience. I have also read other discussions of the effect of this book from people who had similar reactions.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Eol]

IMP: Yes you awnsered my question.I must apologise, being a fantasy writer, I do not read much in the way of popular fantasy.I have been let down by it, so I have being my trek through classical literature and classical mythos and legends. Hopefully I will have the time to begin the Aeanid htat is sitting on my shelf upstairs.

[Neferchoirwen]

Surgery is the perfect word, Nar, you have my word on that. The reality contained in fantasy can heal, more than just change, though change can be part of the healing. The reality in those pages seem to be more powerful, reaching deep inside of us; not just reaching in and talking to us, but actually doing something inside of us.

Contemplation is what makes a novel great. Not only does it allow me as a reader to explore a characters mind, but I find myself contemplating. I admire these characters that I almost feel the urge to pray for them (call that an obssession or an insanity).

I am brewing an idea in my head to turn a Biblical story into a fantasy novel. The resemblence is clear, when both fantasy and the Bible are read, and I am sure it'll be a huge project. I hope my mind gives birth to the characters soon.

Writing for me is highly therapeutic, and yes, surgical.

On Arthuurian fantasy, I am trying to look for works of that genre. I also think that it is fantasy in a sense that Camelot is a vision that certain people believe in and hope for, which in itself is an escape. I haven't read any yet, but I will be reading The Once and Future King one of these days. (Speaking of The Once and Future King, I found another Arthurian fantasy entitled "Merlin's Ring". I found it on sale for less than a dollar's worth)

Well, how serious am I? The idea is just lingering in my mind, so I haven't started on anything, but I am definite that it will a novel I will be proud of.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Neferchoirwen ]

[Eol]

I was talking with a couple of my friends after going to dinner and discussing fantasy literature. We broke fantasy into three catagories: so fantastical, it can never happen, fantastical it would be cool if it happened, but probably would not, and so fantastical that is it possible it could have or will happen.

By no means do I say this is how it is, but it was an interesting way to think about fantasy.

the mists of avalon, is a great book. Unfortunately I just have not been counting it as a fantasy -Bombur

So you are saying that any myth or legend created is not fantasy? Legands is partial truth with some embleshiment. Is not fantasy just that? I consider myths and legends possible fantasy as it makes something/someone seem more then they seem.

Example: Robin Hood did exist, but whether he stole from the rich and gave to the poor, ect. well it is up to grabs. Same as King Arthur, as he was once a ruler in britain, most likely a chieftian and great warrior. Time changes the story as it told orally and only after hundreds of years later does any of it reach printed word.

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[littlemanpoet]

The term fantasy didn't exist with any of its current connotations until it was distinguished from fancy by Samuel Taylor Coleridge. He said that a fancy is like a notion, whereas a fantasy is more complex, something wherein sub-creation is actually taking place. I forget who it was that developed the word fantasy further yet, but it was either Tolkien or somebody in the 1800s.

[Belin]

Coleridge!

I haven't been following this topic that closely, but I was scanning Daily Topics and came across the name of STC and was instantly drawn in.

Let me admit that I haven't read all of the Biographia Literaria (yet), but I did read an exerpt that sounds very much like it might be the one you're referring to, lmp. If this is the case, you're slightly mistaken, as the word he used is "imagination." He made a distinction between primary imagination, which is basically perception (and seeing perception as a kind of imagination is a wonderful insight and one I very much enjoy)--Tolkien refers to this usage in "On Fairy-tales," though he doesn't mention Coleridge's name --, secondary imagination, which implies the creation of something entirely new, and fancy, which was no more than a mixture of things that didn't ordinarily belong together (think griffins). Subcreation as secondary imagination is a very interesting connection, I think. Secondary imagination, to my mind, is described in a very similar way to secondary belief. Subcreation..hm. In any case, I would certainly be very interested in knowing how Tolkien reacted to Coleridge, if he borrowed some of his ideas, etc. They were both introducing fantasy into an enviornment where it hadn't existed much... You'll hear more from me on this when I get around to reading STC's whole book.

I don't know if this is helpful at all, but I'll certainly be watching to see whether anything comes of it.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[Nar]

'Perception as imagination'? Tell me more, Belin! You mean the world as a dream of the mind? Hmm, what do we think about a definition of 'fancy' rearranging and reattaching things that did not go together? I can see where the idea would come from-- that's how all those lovely medieval beasties were constructed: Winged lions with scorpion tails (now THAT's serious!) --Griffins are my favorite. Anyone else have a favorite medieval beast? Know any obscure ones? What about the Basilisk? Body of a lizard, wings of a bird of prey, head of a ... chicken? That's what it looks like in my beastiary, anyway. And of course that glaring eye that paralyzes ... why did I never notice it is the glare of a very angry chicken!

Anyway, if rearranging parts is 'fancy' then fantasy I think is something more, there has to be an overarching consistency and flow for a story to work for me as fantasy. There are certainly elements in LotR and the Silmarillion from many sources, but they feel composed and melded together, don't they? I certainly couldn't deconstruct them. That's what's meant by 'sub-creation' I think-- it's a living thing, and if you tried to dissassemble it into allegory or elements of myth and legend it would give a terrible cry like a ... mandrake pulled from the living earth! There's a beast for you, the world's only vegetable beastie.

[Lila Bramble]

[img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] Well, it seems my little break from the internet wasn't so rewarding! I returned to see my Yahoo box loaded with FaerieWordWeavers new posts (and I haven't even read one!) and a huge topic here in our discussion board! Well, I'll sit down and relax and see how this carries out...

[Eol]

Lila, take your time to read over ther past material, as it is no going anywhere too fast, niether is this thread at the moment.

good to see you again.

Eol

[Nar]

LotR is in a sort of hybrid Dark Ages/Edwardian world. Does fantasy have to be set in a middle ages or earlier society, or have older elements from middle ages or earlier drawn into a more modern world? There seems to be a need for life and death issues-- as in LotR or The Hobbit, the story never starts swinging until the protagonists wander somewhere where there are things that might kill them. So is a world where people might be killed necessary for fantasy so that the stakes are high enough?

[Eol]

Well, death is always a good way to start things. THough what if you have a culture that does not see death as bad, rather a progression to a higher life....? What if death does not mean much to that character thay is from that culture?

It is really up to the writer ti give the suspense. What is the stakes are high because someone has to make to a certain place before a certain period of time elasped? No death would occure....

[littlemanpoet]

Even Star Wars was "a long long time ago". But Science Fantasy (I'm not talking about techy sci fi) is just as often in the future, whether one generation away or millenia. So I would say it need not be in the past, but it does have to have an otherness. Otherwise, why escape to it?

Fantasy IS about life and death. No matter if you're a strict Tolkien follower or your definition is larger. This is, I think, because fantasy is about life in its most simple and profound (notice I'm not saying simplistic) forms, where all the mundaneity is stripped away and we see things for what they REALLY are (even though so called "realists" consider fantasy lovers at best dreamers).

[Thinhyandoiel]

Well look who's here! Me! Wierd, ne? Anyways!

So is a world where people might be killed necessary for fantasy so that the stakes are high enough?

Like Paul said in regards to this question, I do believe that the concept of death or at least a threat to life or a way of life is necessary for fantasy. Because it is this threat, this danger, that sets everything in motion. Even for a simple "rescue princess from evil dragon"-tale there is a threat of death.

Because it is natural instinct to survive, ingrained within all creatures, life is reverenced in human beings. Of course, there are the exceptions where death is equally or even more so revered or honoured like Eol pointed out. I think a good fantasy idea for a culture like that would be for some typical evil lord to come up and turn everyone immortal, and their resulting struggle to live without what they honoured most. *muses* Huh...muse is at work now. Great. I'm off! ^_~

[Eol]

I would have to agree that fantasy is about life and death. Though we can go a little further and say that fantasy is about people. Fantasy is about people and their lives.

[Lila Bramble]

Ah, what a great question..."What is fantasy about?"

The main thing in my story isn't really "How can I survive?" but more of "How can I get what I want?"

My current work is sort of like a rescue effort that turns out to be much more with many 'surprises' and unexpected things along the way. Anyway, I'm happy with how it's coming out.

True, fantasy has to have one common factor, but not all of it has to be the 'Life or Death' threat. After all, torturey, rape, enslavement could be worse than death, espically if they let you suffer and go free.

And taking away something dear to you could be the 'what if I fail?' answer, as well.

[Saxony Tarn]

oh my, it seems to have gotten existentially blue in here indeed! (looks like i'd better head back to the cellar and brew up some stronger drink for these late-night philosophical debates on the nature of life, death, and high plot tension that i sense on the horizon...)

s.t.

(this next part is a test of the updated profile system. this is only a test...)

(if successful, you should see a scene from FOTR that was never filmed, but should have been...)

(that was a test of the emergency profile system. we now return you to your regular scholarly discourse. thank you for your support!)

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[Nar]

Eol: Hmm, you're making me think.

What if the stakes are high because someone has to make to a certain place before a certain period of time elasped? No death would occur....

Yes, high stakes, that's the key... there is hope, and there is loss, and not always of life, think of the Scouring of the Shire.
LMP: Good point-- I would say setting in the past with stakes of life and death brings us close to our elemental nature and nature itself, but then what do we say about Star Wars?

Keep writing, Lila! Make the stakes even higher! I like fantasy where the fate of the LAND is at stake!

Re: This is only a test... My Lord, Saxony Tarn, that was beautiful! *Sigh* Did you intend me to see Bor' plucked from the falls, on a split screen with Tom Bombadil smooching Goldberry in the Zorro manner, or was that all me?

Thinhyandoiel, [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] you wicked mind you: Eol posits a lovely, spiritually evolved society that reveres death as a progression onward, and you want to send in a Dark Lord to take death away from them? 'Fear me, worship me, or I shall not harm one hair on your heads! Hahahaha! You shall live, yes! You shall all LIVE!' [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Truly you are a diabolical mind!

[Eol]

Nar:

You are simply hillarious!

Since we are still on the subject, my friend found this link about the Watt-evan's Laws of Fantasy, take a peek and we can discuss it!
http://www.sff.net/people/lwe/miscellaneous/laws.htm

[Saxony Tarn]

Nar:

heh heh... well, i just wanted to let you know that i missed your feedback on my fanfic (and that goes for LMP & double for all the others who expressed interest, got the link, and have never left a footprint in the guestbook, but i know you're quite busy at the moment) and keep your interest stoked up.

Which is always a critical component of any good story -- fantasy or not -- if it doesn't keep the reader's interest, well, they have a thousand more things vying for that time...

s.t.

(and if you liked "Boromir's Revenge" you should see the different angle out-take view on my desktop... "This thing has a right end and a wrong end, and YOU, Lurtz, are on the wrong end...")

[Nar]

Eol: thank you! I'll check that thread and sign back on. Laws of Fantasy, hmm?

Yes, Saxony Tarn, Bor' has been running on my mind, but I was stuck on another review and had to resolve it first.

I believe I haven't mentioned (I was saving it for the big opening of my review of Bor' chapter 7+, but what the hey!) that your Bor' came and possessed my paintbrush-- yes, not two weeks ago this was, I had my tunes on, ELO and Opera Arias (sad angry ones by toothsome males), I was dancing back and forth on my painting scaffold painting my house yellow, nice thick classic paintbrush, nice thick yellow paint, and I thought, that brush is thick like Bor's hair, and immediately the brush started feeling like Bor', rushed hither and yon by an ardently admiring female: whether the author-- you-- or Iarangol, I couldn't decide, but all the music became Bor' themes-- 'I'm taking a dive!' 'turned to stone--you were gone--turned to stone--' 'It's a living thing! It's a terrible thing to lose!' ... and then I'm not sure, it was my Bor'Brush singing either 'My love you are like the stars' or 'My love they are about to kill me' --can't understand Italian, but it was from Tosca so it was one of the two.

All right, yes. You've got a passel o'reviewing coming your way, Saxony Tarn. And I have every motive to do it, because, damn it, I want more of that story! I know something's been wrong, because you haven't been signing on with breathless reports from your story, but hopefully some reviewing will help. If it doesn't, I'm gonna send you a slightly used house painting brush. Think yellow, bright lemonpie yellow.

[littlemanpoet]

Whoa! Good stuff here, folks.

Thinyandoiel:

I think a good fantasy idea for a culture like that would be for some typical evil lord to come up and turn everyone immortal, and their resulting struggle to live without what they honoured most. *muses* Huh...muse is at work now. Great. I'm off!

So, can we expect a new plot twist in your fantasy? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Lila:

The main thing in my story isn't really "How can I survive?" but more of "How can I get what I want?"

Good point. You remind me that Tolkien said fantasy is about desire. Both questions you mention reflect that.

Saxony Tarn: [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Oh, and I will be getting back to your story after the other priorities that keep leaping into my schedule. Consider it a promise. Heck, why wouldn't I? It's too fun (anachronistic) and interesting to leave alone.

Nar:

but then what do we say about Star Wars?

Um, freedom from tyranny? Heh. That brings us full circle to the question of liberte, fraterneti, egalite. I think my answer was "yes". This confirms it for me.

[Saxony Tarn]

Nar & LMP -- i'm glad to hear it & we'll all be expecting you. (Just for you, Nar, i WILL compile the 'soundtrack' & post that as well -- but you had some good ideas there!)

things have gotten rather busy lately, not the least of which was the Rennaisance Faire in its new closer-to-home and shadier location. Sighted: a certain wandering Elf prince. Ah, so THIS is that 'far Western Shore' to which he sailed at the end... (pretty good reproduction costume too. i didn't get the chance to ask if he'd made it or rented it... B( )

(to be done next time i get to Faire this year -- take the Little Warrior shopping for sword-hilted letter openers, and see if i can't bribe the Horn makers to sell me those little tips they slice off the horns to put the reeds on. Must have Horn of Gondor, by hook or by crook! i'll just have to keep him away from the jewelry merchants...)

Later this week though i hope to get back to posting more chapters up for reading, if not to writing...

...as i'm sure does LMP, who will probably have to update his exhaustive index for all the new topics that have sprung up (Fantasy Politics? Who'da thunk it?)

s.t.

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

Nar:

Thinhyandoiel, you wicked mind you: Eol posits a lovely, spiritually evolved society that reveres death as a progression onward, and you want to send in a Dark Lord to take death away from them? 'Fear me, worship me, or I shall not harm one hair on your heads! Hahahaha! You shall live, yes! You shall all LIVE!' Truly you are a diabolical mind!

*laughs* Thank you! *bows* I like to work on my diabolical schemes on my days off, you know. I was thinking 'take away what they desire most' and you have a typical Dark Lord. But, then again, if that were true, the bully who takes candy from a baby would also be a Dark Lord. I know quite a few Dark Lords in that case. Heck, I've been a Dark Lord on one occassion or another. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (If my definition of Dark Lord were true...it's not though. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

LMP:

So, can we expect a new plot twist in your fantasy?

*laughs* No. My muse had me thinking that maybe, 'yes', there for a while. But then it didn't fit with a few themes I had going. Or...maybe it does. Reincarnation runs abundant in my story, and that is a type of immortality, is it not? Come to think of it...immortality as 'punishment' sort of already occurs in my story if you look at it that way.

Saxony:

Sighted: a certain wandering Elf prince.

[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] We never have Renaissance Faires here. But I would give anything to see someone dress as an elf in person. Brings the fantasy closer to home, ya know? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Lila Bramble]

Haha, here is a place I can go with a mug of ale to get a good hearty laugh.

Anyway, I've decided to slow down my dangerously progressive fanfiction and work moreso on my 'novel,' it itself is interesting ME in the world of Relgala. I included a lot about the religion, unlike Tolkien.

But I have a question for Saxony. Though you haven't read 'the Light of War' one thing in it is that humans evolve into 'elfs' (well, its really hard to explain in this 'short' post.)

There are elfs, humans, and than there is that akward stage where a human is half way between the evloving process. One of my main, well moreso important, characters is at the stage. I want it to be rather like Ardanansa, since that is a fanfiction not to be published. But I fear to use the name and rock solid personna. What should I do?

But besides my question, I also came here to join in on the ale fest! *Grabs a fresh one Saxony laid down at the bar counter*

[Lady_Espel]

Lol, anyone who has chatted at the same time as me, knows I don't take myself seriously alot of the time, so I don't think my stories are very good. I started reading the first book while I was writing my story and, out of respect for Tolkien, went back and changed so much. The worst thing was, was that my baddy was the king's advisor (eg: Wormtounge) and i wrote it before I'd read the second book. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] I was so frustrated, but had to change it, even though it was a big part of my story. But, I'd rather have one that takes longer to write and is origanal than a fake. I think we should start a thread with people's stories put up, because everyone's sound great!

[Saxony Tarn]

well, milady, you've come to the right tavern :: hands you a drink to be filled w/ the virtual beverage of your choice ::

and as far as stories posted, i recommend that you talk to the Brooding Bard in the corner there when he takes his next set break... :: shooting wink to LMP ::

Lila -- no, i've never read the story you mention, but it sounds interesting. (stick around after closing time & tell me more...)

s.t.

[littlemanpoet]

LMP raises his half-empty mug and winks back at ST. "Yes, we'll have a talk with the Lady. Ne doubt yee've come to the reet place."

One thing I'll pass on to ye is that jus' b'cause JRRT had a counsellor as the evil bad guy doesn't mean you can't. It depends how you handle him/her. If your story's different enough, I dare say it'll stand on its own. But I feel for your frustration. I ken a wee bit o' wat yer taakin' aboot.

[Nar]

So, any serious fantasy writers out there come up with some good weapons? I notice people like to invent new methods for mayhem and so forth. Narsil is still my favorite, but I always thought it a great shame we never get much on Gil-Galad's spear, or on that final confrontation with Sauron in general, it must have been intense. I'm not great with inventing weapons, but there is this pickle jar... Never mind. You had to be there. My fantasy writing just does not run in ordinary channels.

Now, if you're the contrarian anti-heroic type of fantasy writer, if, for example, you applaud the non-use of the One Ring because you worry about the dangers of power and you identify with the hobbits as representatives of the common man, how about prosaic, unromantic gear? Sam's pots, for example. You never think about Sam's pots, with which he keeps Frodo alive, on which that great, warm funny scene with the stewed coney depends-- the only meeting of the minds Sam and Smeagol have (well... almost). I note the movie turned Sam's frypan into a blunt intrument for battle with orcs, but the book is much purer: those pans mean Sam's pride, Sam's craft in cooking and caretaking and Sam's love for his master. One of the saddest moments in the book for me is when Sam throws his pots down a fissure to lighten their load-- they're the only thing left that's pure Sam and not Sam-for-master or Sam-for-mission. Anything in your stories that's small, humble, prosaic, but somehow sums up one of your characters better than anything else?

[littlemanpoet]

[img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] Ouch. I thought you had written "prosac" as some kind of modern ironic fantasy magic weapon. No, "prosaic". <whew> M. has this little Celtic blockflute she keeps in a pouch she wears around her neck. That blockflute keys her identity. Hmmmmm....only character who has any little mundane item in all my stories. Hmmmm!

[Nar]

Ok, LMP, someone needs a little book of matches from their favorite restaurant. Maybe some flaming redhead would like that, hmm? You should come up with something to console your suffering messed up brother too (speaking fictionally here, folks). For that matter, isn't a belt used as a sling at one point, in the course of what is a rather ominous association overall? That's gear, that's humble, that's useful! A sling that immobilizes the injury while impeding movement-- what does this mean! And what about those chairs-- you know, the ones in the bad guys lair! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Chair-lair-- Ah, I knew I was a poet! Check out my other thread on Sam's pans, I've talked myself into tears over their fate, practically. The poor pans went into the fissure! Lost, lost, never to cook coney again! (The rabbits cheer!)

Casting things away, the more wrenching the better, now that's a fantasy theme with potential, and, I think, very much in the spirit of Tolkien! Sam casts away his precious pans, and Frodo casts away his precious Shire. That's part of what makes LotR transcend ordinary 'power-and-vengeance' or 'prince-and-princess happy ending' fantasy novels.

[Saxony Tarn]

An interesting "can of worms" to open, Nar, as usual...

hmm... mundane object that suddenly took on plot significance far & beyond its humble station... let me think about that one for a little bit...

i don't think i have anything that made quite as good a character tag as the pots -- but then again, it's early morning for me. Time for Second Breakfast, right Sam?

s.t.

[Eol]

One the characters in Interregnum, Thestyl has a common "useful" gear.

She begins in the story with a long, yellow scarf. Thestyl will either wrapped around her hair to keep her hair concealed or around her neck during cool times. You never see her without a scarf or veil.

Novah D'korat, well it would be her brigadine. For those do not know what that is. A brigadine is a vest made of material with metal plates ribited the material and it usually sandwiched between two pieces of leather or quiting. A very handy piece of anrmour.

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Lila Bramble]

Any signatures of my characters about an item or weapon?? Hmm...maybe Lila and her staff would be an example of that. Although I haven't written out fully the example I speak of, I know what will happen.

Lila has a staff that is basically bonded her, and they share the same life force (it's a long story!) If Lila's staff, or even the pearl that is palced upon it, is destoryed it will bring death to her, as well. I don't want to continue for the sake of Saxony, but if she wishes to hear what happens...

[Thenamir]

One thing that moves me when it is thrown away is something intangible -- a desire. In the Rohan RPG, I play my namesake character Thenamir of Gondor. One of his motivations is to exact revenge on the band of Dunlendings that once killed his wife (shades of Daniel Jackson in Stargate SG-1). He has lately been thrust into the leadership role of the band of warriors he has travelled with for so long, and is in a position to take that revenge now if he desires. But there is a greater goal, one upon which the fates of many more people in Middle-Earth may turn, though he himself does not know what it is...yet. He has to willingly cast away that desire for revenge, even though it might be completely justified, in order to do his honorable duty. The struggle which he goes through (and continues to go through) to subordinate his desires for the greater good is one of the conflicts that makes his character more interesting. (At least, I hope the stuff int hat RP is interesting to SOMEONE other than myself...)

[Saxony Tarn]

Oh no, Lila, don't not post it on my account (i've already read more than they have, right?)

and maybe i should ask folks who've read mine to select the tag items... that would give me a better idea of how well they were placed.

(give you a hint, after a certain outdoorsman with Herbalism proficiency shows up, a certain wild medicinal plant starts earning its status as a cast member. But what OTHER items... hmm...)

Maybe it's more what items are conspicuous by their ABSENCE, for example, as Nar and Lila will relate, a certain backpack and pair of leather bracers were nowhere to be found in the vicinity of their owner...

s.t.

[Bêthberry]

Not something thrown away informs "Bethberry" but recouping something lost. Like Thenamir's "Thenamir", my "Bethberry" has a long backhistory. Initially, I created 'her' as the daughter in search of Goldberry's lost voice and I deliberately worked her against type in that she was never described beyond the most minimal way. She was of appearance, height, age indeterminant, so that none of those characteristics could be used to place her. In her first RPG, she became a voice of restraint and compromise among young male gamers--male Mary Sues--who were interested mainly in hack and wack. Thus, she had no weapon but her wits and her skill at using the terrain and the animals she worked with, a horse and a falcon. She left that RPG not through the glories of tragic death but through mundane illness, loss of memory from injury in a storm. The amnesiac has recovered here now, where that original impetus, to challenge the thoughtless delight in battle, has become less crucial. Yet she is still in pursuit of that original goal and she still provides, as the daughter of Tom and Goldberry, an echoing hymn of what Nar has called "the original music of Uluvatar." One of the things she will do is again challenge misconceptions but those will be different and they will draw her out into a far more assertive role. Her conflicts are not internal so much as external. In this, she is not a 'modern' character at all, but a character conceived within Tolkien's universe of focussed evil.

Bethberry

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[Lila Bramble]

As the question still stands, in my opinion an interesting story would have that one special thing about a character, or even each character. Whether its a unique and outstanding personality trait (urgh..the dreaded character sketch!) or one weapon or one act, it makes the readers job much more fun.

((Saxony, sorry for my absence at your site. Life has been so busy in school, elfwood, the arts...but I will get back soon!))

[Lila Bramble]

Not like this contributes to the subject at hand, but while at my job of babysitting, the child was watching a fantasy called 'the Dark Crystal' they had on video. It is an amazing fantasy unlike any other I have ever seen before.

It dosen't have the traditonal big bad evil guy with elfs and some humans and some thrown in dwarfs like some other fantasy's. Every single race hasn't been used before, clearly created totally from the writer. No elfs, no dwarfs, no nothing used before. 100% original.

I don't know why I had to post this, but I loved the movie so much, I just wanted to see who else had seen it or liked it. It might even be (in my opinion) even more original than Lord of the Rings, though Lord of the Rings is deffinantly the best!