Are You Writing Serious Fantasy?

[Lila Bramble]

I have a question.

In one of my stories, a person betrays immensly a dear friend of his, a king, and the betrayist his squire. The king barely survives the ordeal.

I was wondering, at the end should the squire have a large punishment, or have a spreaded forgiveness?

[Naaramare]

you can write a physically plain or undefined character so that they become attractive.

That's my challenge with my herione. She's quite bluntly nothing special, for pure physical beauty--if you were, say, looking at a posed picture. However, she has a vitality and manner that make her extremely beautiful . . .to a select few people.

My problem has always been writing her view of herself, and yet making her lover's insistance that yes, she is beautiful (to him at least) make sense to the reader!

Whatever he thought he was taking aim at, he hit abuse of authority far more accurately than God.

You'll notice that . . .the Authority wasn't God. He was someone who at one point told everyone he was God, but he was lying. Pullman's "god" was something entirely different.

I'm more interested in the classic mistakes and strengths of each and all religions than pitting one against the other.

Mmm. On this note, this is a subject wherein my story becomes much more non-fantasy.

Within my story, there's nothing to say that any religion is right. Religious "power" has some effect on ordinary magic . . .but a Christian's devoutly said prayer has the same general sort of effect as a Witch's well-cast Working or a Buddhist's meditation. Gods don't intervene in my story; no angels come down from on high. I don't even have demons, per se; what's a leprechaun on the Bright Court's side is a goblin on the Dark Court, but they're essentially the same creature.

So it's all up in the air. The main story is filtered through the perceptions of my point of view character, who is a practicalist Witch who is in constant doubt of all faiths, including her own. :: shrugs:: I like it better that way.

at the end should the squire have a large punishment, or have a spreaded forgiveness?

That depends, I think, on the theme of your story. Is forgiveness a big theme? Then it should reflect that.

[Nar]

Naaramare,

You'll notice that . . .the Authority wasn't God. He was someone who at one point told everyone he was God, but he was lying. Pullman's "god" was something entirely different.

Oh yes, and I should have included instiutionalized authority-- Pullman hit that most effectively-- the institute is the scariest thing in the story-- I can't think of that operation in the first book without getting the shakes. The closest thing to my idea of God in the story is the Dust... but if I was writing it, they would find it had a multiplied consciousness -- in other words I'd have followed the characters who die, including the friend and the two 'so-bad-they're-good' sacrificers a little further into death and dustiness and discovered that condition more. Pullman leaves that somewhat open, I think -- what it's like when you're part of the dust. There are hints. However, I like Pullman's story as it is, it reflects his ideas and so it should. Finding that my love for the universe is requited after all is my faith some days, my fantasy other days.*sigh*

Lila, the fate of the squire depends on how he acts now, after his betrayal. A character who has done something so terrible it's wrecked their character/soul/what-have-you is potentially fascinating, as I'm sure Nazgul Number 10 would agree. When you've disgraced yourself in your own eyes, that's the real test of character: what do you do then, try to fix it? Try to punish yourself? Try to be better in the future?

Does your squire have care for the ones he hurt, or does he tell self-defensive lies to himself, throwing the blame on them? That's the real test. His story really only begins after he blows it! How he takes it should determine the consequences to him in the story-- if there's nothing of his original character left because he's reacted only with selfish defensiveness, then forgiveness helps his victims but can't save him. Gandalf's and Frodo's forgiveness helped them, but didn't save Saruman-- it could have, though, if Saruman had come out of his tower and helped or even just done no more harm.

[Naaramare]

Pullman leaves that somewhat open, I think -- what it's like when you're part of the dust.

And I personally agree with that decision; after all, Pullman hasn't died, so he could hardly tell you! *L* It's similar, I think, to my own decision in my story to leave my gods behind the scenes and unprovable. Naturally, my characters believe--with varying degrees of fervency and faith--that their view of whatever's out there (picture vague hand-waving in the direction of some non-existant otherworld . . . ^~)is the view that's right, but as in real life, all their "proof" is subjective.

As to the betrayal issue, Lila, listen to Nar, whose explanation was much more useful than mine. ^^

[Saxony Tarn]

Nar, that comment about Lorien and peril was deep, and all i can say is, great minds think alike. It'll be interesting to see how you interpret some of the levels that extrapolated themselves in my story as you read on, and i'm looking forward to it!! (having a little thread developing in my guestbook or something)

w/ regards to the squire, Lila, i vote you go w/ Nar's assessment -- as i'd have probably told you the same thing!

w/ regards to characters becoming beauty as they develop, i found the best example of this in a graphic novel (the Incal, Moebius was the artist, i can't recall the writer's name at present) and the main character was drawn fairer or uglier according to his actions at the time (high-minded & noble or base & immoral) -- symbolically, i found it extremely effective. With kudos to PJ & crew, i noticed the same effect in the movie w/ regards to a certain painfully human member of the Fellowship (when he went after Frodo in that rage, he really got UGLY)

oh, and we've started a good one about faith and magic, so let me toss in a quote from the tale i mentioned in an earlier post with my garage-band rock group caught up in a pre-Armageddon war-game exercise:

"My faith predisposes me to believe in magic" (says Kameron Schiller, leader of the band, in an interview somewhere in the book) "and my magic draws its strength from my beliefs. So when I see my best friend gleefully singing away to the eight-headed monster that he can't see perched over the drum kit but I clearly can, you'll understand why I get just a little bit nervous..."

|_|) <-- but as long as he's drunk, he can convince the beast that it's a figment of his imagination, and it leaves him alone. When he sobers up and it's still there, then he has to deal with it. "Ady, buddy, pal, comrade, about this new lyric of yours -- we need to talk..."

s.t.

[Naaramare]

Saxony: As soon as my house is clean, I will get around to reading your story. I swear this as much to myself as to you (by the time I'm done with this bloody house I'm going to need some detox!)

My own favourite example of beauty/ugliness depending on the viewer is actually from a (pull out your stones and pitchforks everyone!) Harry Potter fanfic called Trouble In Paradise and Paradise Lost. You switch points of view and while the basic description of the character is still the same, the adjectives and subjectiveness change.

That little bit about the garage band people amuses me. Obviously, I do believe in magic--or, more accurately, magick, but I shan't get into the distinctions at the moment.

Within my story, the magick of faith can be either a help or a hinderance, even to the character's own side. If, for example, you have an elven mage trying to do a shielding spell and you have the athiestic Secondary Female sitting there not believing in any kind of magic at all, her faith in the non-existance of magic or magick can become so intense that the power and effects of it can seriously mess up the mage's spell.

This, at one point, leads the athiest to being turned spontaneously into a frog so the elven mage can concentrate, but that's not important. ^^

[Saxony Tarn]

turning the atheist into a frog so as to concentrate on the spell... hmm....

i like that one...

:: wicked FRPG Gamemaster grin ::

and when it cools off down here, i may get another three chapters dumped into HTML and posted. And maybe even those missing lines that Gandalf and Denethor owe me might show up. It's only supposed to be 92 today (yeah, right. woe to me if i lived any further from the shore...) -- too hot to think.

|_|) <-- tall cold ones for staying cool. i think i'll make mine a milkshake today...

s.t.

[Naaramare]

:: wicked FRPG Gamemaster grin ::

Oh dear, now I've gone and given Saxony ideas . . . . [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Anna Licumo]

On the note of religion, and how the other's beliefs affect each other:

In my (er, one of them) story, there are 4 major religions- two monothesisms,(sp?) one that allows magick, the other not. There's also two polytheisms- one with a varaity of gods and the other more... pagen, I suppose. Anyway, at one part one of the belivers in the monothesism with a belief in magic, tries to spell the others to protect them from a shower of bullets. It works on most of them, since they belive in magic, but the one who does not is not protected.

I.E. The belief makes anything done with an opposing belief not real. (Hmm, that did not make a whole lot of sense to me and I know what I'm talking about. Sorry!) This is my way of trying to walk that fine line of religious differences. Either that, or I have too much time on my hands to think of strange stuff like this. I haven't decided which yet. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Saxony Tarn]

welcome, Anna, and here is your official AYWSF pint:

|_|) <-- fill with the virtual beverage of your choice

sounds rather interesting; read on as i think we're about to delve into another scholarly discussion of magic and its mysterious workings. Or maybe not. There's some other posts on this topic to be found in LMP's index a page or so back -- enjoy, and post early and often!

s.t.

(BTW naaramare -- i ALWAYS have that wicked GM grin... worry not! i'm just grinning at Nar's having described one level of my fanfic w/o having read 90% of it yet...)

[Lila Bramble]

Welcome, Anna, and I see Saxony has uphelp the tradition of giving the 'o sacred virtuial mug!

And everyone, thank you very much for the help and I've decided what I am going to do! Fill the mug on me, and Saxony, yes, you can have a milkshake [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

|_|) <-----------

[Anna Licumo]

Thanks for the welcome! And yes, I realize I'm posting *again*, but now I have a question to discusss rather than a statement.

Which are better, generally, character-driven plot, or... plot-driven plot. I.E., the action happens because of what a character does, or the char. is just along with the ride? Is a healthy mix of both the best, and how do you mix it up?

The difference, how I see it, is shown between Tolkien as plot driven, and Ranma1/2 (I know it's not great literature, but I'm having difficulties of thinking of anyother ones) as character driven.

In one of my stories, it's mostly character driven. The planet is wrecked by the invaders. Everything else is driven by how they react/ what they do. Whereas another story is about this Vampire case my character has to deal with; it's all action driven. This is why I ask:

Which is better? More interesting? How do you best mix it up?

Just wondering. Thought it would make an interesting topic, if the magick thread didn't go anywhere. Anyway, thank you!

[Nar]

Welcome, Anna! Character-driven draws out the character, as his/her nature is influencing the plot. It requires more thought from the author about who the character is, so characters tend to become more specific, complex, and compelling. Specific characters, those who couldn't be mistaken for anyone else, they're real, compelling. A story like that is interesting for readers, it draws them in and generally increases their identification with the character, because they know much more about him/her. Plot turns that aren't character-driven can add excitement, irony, drama and suspense. Oh no, not THIS! NOW! What will the protagonist DO?

Plot turns are good as long as there are not too many 'pure events' -- purely plot-driven material is exciting in a generic way, but it's difficult to care about characters who are only reacting and have nothing to do with the shape of the story. It's hard to know them, therefore hard to feel for them.

Let's take character and event in LotR. When the ring lands in Frodo's hand, --event-- how he copes with it, how quiet, determined and protective of his friends and country he is-- that's determined by his character, and that is how we first come to know him. Throughout FotR, Frodo meets a series of imposing larger than life characters, --from his point of view, events-- When Frodo reacts, his courtesy always comes through. He always has something to say --character. The interplay keeps things interesting. Think of how much more interesting Frodo's meeting with Galadriel becomes after he figures out her desires and the source of her power and makes his offer of the ring. Events: 'Come to the golden wood, meeting the grand and beautiful elf, looking in her mirroring basin' are overtaken by character: 'recognizing the ring of adamant, offering the one ring in recognition of her strength, age and wisdom, overthrowing her temptation by inviting it in.' Frodo flips the encounter backwards: Galadriel, guide and judge of all who enter her realm, becomes the quester, making her way through the temptation of ultimate power. Frodo, the quester, becomes Galadriel's guide through that test; she passes it, perhaps helped by the example of hobbit-nature Frodo provides her.

In real life, our lives are a mix of character driven elements like self-sabotage and love and aspiration and 'plot-driven' events like diseases, aging, earthquakes, economic meltdowns, wars, famines-- some of these 'interesting times' are human-influenced, thus not entirely 'acts-of-the-universe' but they're not derived from the actions of any ONE of us. We can relate to an interplay of event and character because that's most like our existence.

[littlemanpoet]

I have a lot of catching up to do! I've been reading, reading, but never have time to post. Well, I'll tackled a bit at a time I guess.

First, Welcome, ANNA! Glad to have you aboard. Post early and often, and what a great first question! Since ST has already pointed you toward the index on page 12, I'll not harp on it (too much).

Naaramare:

As my bible-counsellor friend said: "You know there's something wrong with a book when the only interesting character is the Anti-Christ."

That is just such a good piece of wisdom. I like everything you had to say about religion, Naaramare.

I think I understand what you're saying by some people not being able to understand HDM, but I'm still curious what things you think would be too hard for them?

Saxony Tarn You bet I'm interested. Please send me the link.

your assessment of men vs. women is very much right on the nailhead

Thanks for saying so. Seems like a lot of nails are getting hit right on the head in this thread.

Potter's not just popular, it's popular with -- gasp, shudder -- CHILDREN. Young, impressionable CHILDREN... who are anything BUT fools.

I like that. Especially the last phrase. How true. And then the fools who have fooled themselves into believing that they have actually thought through everything they believe without just accepting it as received, are scandalized that their own kids actually like the stuff. I can talk that way because I used to be such a fool - not that long ago. No kids to get scandalized about, though.

Lila:

thanks for your advice, LMP

Glad I could help.

Gotta go back to work. I'll continue catching up.

Happy writing!
lmp

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Naaramare]

what things you think would be too hard for them?

(pre-apologies for all those who haven't read them books, be alert for spoilers! ^^;;; )

My best example of what they tend to get hung up on is Mrs Coulter. Is she a heroine or a villainess? And when does she become which? She drugs Lyra, steals her from her friends, keeps her captive and controlled--yet she believes (or says she does!) that she's protecting her, and in the end gives her life for the "good guys", because of Lyra.

Where did the demarkation start? Why? There are a thousand different levels there to be looked at and read into. . .but I know that most of my friends (I love them dearly, but I'm an intellectual anomaly . . . sigh) would miss it. They would see the surface symptoms of bad-gal-turned-good and miss all the points beneath that.

Lord Asriel falls under the same category. He murders a child to bring about the end of an opressive, controlling Authority. Which side? What hat is he wearing, the villain's or the hero's?

Iorek Byrnisson, the Gallespian spies . . .even Lyra's no angel, nor is Will. She trusts him because the althieometer says he's a murderer, which she takes to mean that he won't lose his nerve--yet, she's responsible for preventing the death and soul-decay of the universe with her love.

The lines are very, very blurred. I appreciate that, as despite all the mythical and even religious themes Pullman raises, he's still telling the story of people, from their own eyes. And personally, I can't understand why all this is so difficult for the couple of people I've recommended the series to, to understand. I only understand that it is.

That, and I spent two very frustrating twenty minute conversations trying to explain to people what Dust was and why it was so important. ^^;;;

I like everything you had to say about religion, Naaramare

::blushes:: Thank you. It's something I spend a lot of time (probably too much!) thinking about in relation to fantasy stories and my own life.

[Saxony Tarn]

LMP, glad to have you aboard. i'll send you the link at your FWW e-mail address, probably tonight after i check the temperature in the room. i've been on hiatus from the tale for two weeks now and hope i'll be able to get back on it soon. (at least i remembered to write down the event chain for where i expect it to head, barring reader input that sways me, of course)

Plot-twist vs character-foible... hmm... now there's a juicy meaty bone to chew on. Pardon me if i do. It seems to me that you must strike a balance between both or your story comes out one-sided. Plot rollercoasters without riders that we can relate to or care about their fates get boring after awhile. On the other hand, the one book i mentioned where the first 8 of 13 chapters were character intro and setup, like i said, i only read it because the crossword puzzle in the inflight magazine was already done by someone else. If nothing HAPPENS to even the most wonderfully drawn characters, readers get bored and wander off.

i was talking with a co-worker the other day (guy who's been around as long as LOTR has) about just that work and he remarked that he thought that midway through the saga the Prof's train derailed. i could have debated it with him except that for large chunks of the plot, i was inclined to agree. i know that on a Tolkien board this is tantamount to blasphemy, but that was just one man's opinion. Oddly enough, another of the sales reps (also a Tolkien fan) asked me for the link to my latest WIP.

So since it's better to show than tell, let me see -- take some delightfully diverse characters, throw them together in a less than stable environment (in this case, the Two Towers - ROTK timeframe) and see if they can build a cohesive team. Every time it looks like they're relaxing and getting complacent, drop something else in their lap (something logical that they'd encounter, of course -- no anvils raining from the heavens, except figuratively! B) ) and watch how they react. Just when you thought it waas safe, etc.

As long as you can keep that dynamic going, my friend, you've got a story.

s.t.

|_|) <-- skoal!

[Eol]

I will keep this very brief, no need to be long winded!

I have been writing a story for the past five years with another friend of mine. Five years and four drafts, attepmted to publish it once and was reject and we were glad.

Interregnum is a what would be termed as a high fantasy story. It is everything that I want to find in reading in a fantasy story and never seem to find other then tolkien. The plot and characters are inspired unintentially from historical figures and some mythos.

I have only recently looked into Tolkien's development of his literary works and have it useful as a guide post of what needs to be developed and what we need to avoid. He(Tolkien) had many regrets wishing he could have changed some things and wanted to avoid stereotypes( dwarves and elves) Unfortuanatly that did not change.

The basic plot of the story focuses on a mercanry captain and an ellan. Once nation, Aeldenoce falls into Interregnum, where no obvious government is in rule It is very intense and very much under development.

Want to know more? http://home.attbi.com/~rpajari1/ the offical site for the developing story.

[Lila Bramble]

Hey everyone. With all my questions, you can only imagine how many works I'm writing. I'm going to write an outline for a new story (not fanfiction) and does anyone know a good name for a paladin?

[littlemanpoet]

Nar:

the best material in Pullman is the less didactic material where he just follows the story and characters and invents like wild.

Well said.

I see a lot of classic mistakes, that occur almost identically across very different religions-- there are similar traps that new believers fall into, similar traps that fervent believers fall into, they can all recognize the phenomenon in rival religions but it's a rare insight to recognize the same trap in your own faith.

Very, very well said. I agree!

Lila: I have nothing useful to add to Naaramare's and Nar's good advice.

Hmmm - name for a Paladin? I'd suggest something that evokes goodness or law or courtesy or honor or all four characteristics. Sir Justiciar? Sir Judical? Sir Goodlaw? Sir Formical? I'm sure you'll think of something better....


Saxony Tarn:

"My faith predisposes me to believe in magic" (says Kameron Schiller, leader of the band, in an interview somewhere in the book) "and my magic draws its strength from my beliefs. So when I see my best friend gleefully singing away to the eight-headed monster that he can't see perched over the drum kit but I clearly can, you'll understand why I get just a little bit nervous..."

|_|) <-- but as long as he's drunk, he can convince the beast that it's a figment of his imagination, and it leaves him alone. When he sobers up and it's still there, then he has to deal with it. "Ady, buddy, pal, comrade, about this new lyric of yours -- we need to talk..."

Ack! Wild! I love it.

Thanks for the link! I'll be into it first chance I get, being fair to all my other time commitments...

Naaramare: Hoping for the distinctions between magic and magick. I can guess, but you got me curious.

the magick of faith can be either a help or a hinderance, even to the character's own side. If, for example, you have an elven mage trying to do a shielding spell and you have the athiestic Secondary Female sitting there not believing in any kind of magic at all, her faith in the non-existance of magic or magick can become so intense that the power and effects of it can seriously mess up the mage's spell....This, at one point, leads the athiest to being turned spontaneously into a frog so the elven mage can concentrate,

Fulfilling Gandalf's promise to Sam, eh? By the way, I have imagined this kind of impingement of beliefs on each other, and used to wonder if it does not work something like that in the real world? These days I'm more of a skeptic in terms of what can really happen in our world. For example, "Okay, was that actually God speaking in my mind or was that just some authoritative part of me that purported to be God? And does it matter which one it was?
And by the way, which God?"

And thanks for the explication on HDM. Yes, the mixed black and white in a character is too difficult for some, is it not? My wife hates that kind but I think it's the most interesting, and very much what I write.

I spend a lot of time (probably too much!) thinking about [religion] in relation to fantasy stories and my own life.

I used to, too but I found that such a pondersome and cumbersome amount of internal navelgazing was putting me into a part of purgatory way to grim to spend sunny days in. All that emotional angst about theology - ugh.

Anna Lucimo: (and Naaramare on related post above): The power of belief. There's an interesting topic. I've pondered writing about it myself; in fact, I did. It was in revision 2 or 3 of my current magnum opus, but the whole thing got so rewritten that that part of it did not survive the cuts. I'm glad someone's writing about it.

on character- vs. plot-driven narrative: This has been handled more than adequately by ST and Nar, but I just have to add my three cents (inflation, you know): I think a balance of the two is best. As ST has said, all character and little plot makes for a yawner (I've written such and boy did my readers protest). On the other hand, all plot and little character makes for something hard to relate to. Make your character someone your reader can relate to as quick as possible so that the reader cares about what happens to herim (hey! how's that for a 3rd person gender inclusive pronoun in this doggone English language of ours! or 'herhim' or 'hrim'?)

Eol: Interregnum looks quite interesting. Your experience in the publishing in the market may be helpful to the rest of us. You say you were glad to have been rejected. Sounds like you had a sympathetic publishing rep. who gave good advice. No? Yes? What was the advice? Hope to see more posts from you.

phew. Think I've caught up on it all.

No takers on the poem thing? I can understand not wanting to post here what you intend to publish some day. But what kind do you do? Free verse? Formal? What works best in fantasy in general and/or yours?

Tolkien, for example, always, always stuck to some form with a consistent rhyme and rhythm scheme. In fact, the Earendil piece Bilbo wrote is apparently one of the most challenging and ambitious pieces ever attempted. And Tolkien wrote at least two versions of it! (check to Tolkien Reader for the earlier version)

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Eol]

What happened with the publishing is rather simple. We had sent in the manuscript and were waiting. We spent our time going back over the story and realized that we were not satsified with what had been written, we wanted to change several items and expand on other ideas. Several months later we recieved a rejection letter.
This gave us a chance make those changes, now in the fourth draft we are still making those changes. This story required a great deal of discussion, brainstorming and questioning what was written.

What was so interesting about Interregnum? Productive opnion will help us change or further develop an aspect of the story.

[Eol]

Lila bramble: look at anglo saxton names, they give wonderful flavor and the thinking has already been done for you. Go to google and type in anglo saxton names also try gaelic or welsh names. Look at german also. THey may not have a name, but can provide some inspiration.

also consider if this paladin is of nobleblood or peasant. If peasant, he would only have one name, noble two, first and surname. if need more directions email me!
good luck!

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Owain son of Urien]

JRR used a lot of Welsh names [like Arwen]. Anybody interested in lots and lots of 'Tolkienesque' type names for characters in their own stories go to http://www.kabalarians.com/female/welsh-f.htm
There are mens names too.

[Nimiriel]

Hi. I have been away for a long time (three weeks) and maybe some of this is not what you have discussed lately but anyway:
First of all I'm writing on two stories right now. One in a Tolkien kind of world (though the elves are more perfect than Tolkiens... you who have read the Silmarillion know what I mean) and another in a mordern world with vapires and maybe angels too. Talking religion then theese to worlds are actually part of the same world. I'll try to make it quick: At first there was Nothing, Eternaty and Conciousness. Conciousness made out of it's mind (or what you will call it) the Physsic Material (atoms) and the Magic/Mental Material (magic powers, souls and dreams). Then the PhM gathered and became planets and stars and so on, but stars are also partly MM thats why we think of them as so beautiful. Anyway each planet gets kind of a spirrit or conciousness of its own (good ol' mother nature) and its the neutral ballance between good and evil. This planets spirrit then creates some god-like creatures of pure MM, four good (two female + two male) and three evil (two male + one female twice as powerful as the others) this means that there is a ballance between good and evil, but the good alone is also in ballance, while the evil alone is out of ballance. The Four and the Three take physsical shape and the Four begin to make the earth. It’s a long story but it ends up with: One place all magical (heaven?), one all physsical (our world), and one in between (the Tolkien kind of world) also known as Atlantis because it suddenly diappeared for us (long and complicated story). Everything has a soul in this world, the difference from elf to human to plant to stone, is how concentrated the MM is in their soul, but the Three has succeded in getting some evil into the souls of everything except the elves. That was how the world was made.
This world is a heaven for authors like us because if you imagine a world it will come to life, but in another dimension or what we might call it. The vampires came from such a dimension and slipped into our world through some kind of hole or something. But my point is that the religion in this world is the ballance and NOT only good, because if everything was good, death would not exist and the world would stop changing.

Ok my try to make it quick didn’t work out very well.
The main plot in my first story is that one of the Four gets captured in the body of an half-elf and she can’t use her powers or anything, in fact she doesn’t know she has one of the Four inside her. And of course the good and evil is not in ballance any more...

Well someone said a while ago something about making up your own language was unneccesary. I don’t know if someone has allready said this but: The making of a language makes me feel that my world is more alive and not just the stages in a theater were the world stops just outside the view of the audience. Also i think people would love it, if my stories ever become a huge success, like we love to learn the languages Tolkien made. And finally I’m a bit of a perfectionist so I can’t just write some nonsens and then say “ Oh, this is the old elven language and meens I love you...” or something like that.

Hope I haven’t bored you to death.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

P.S. I'm not afraid to admit that much of my world is greatly inspired by Tolkien.

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[NazgulNumberTen]

whow! thanks for the link to those names. I will use some, heck i may even use one for a kid...

[Naaramare]

Hoping for the distinctions between magic and magick. I can guess, but you got me curious

Mmm. That depends on whether you mean in real life or in my story.

In real life, what the religion known as Witchcraft does in rituals and so forth, we call magick. We add the k essentially to give the word a slightly different look from "magic".

That's because there is in the public mind an image that comes with "magic". Well, actually, there's two: the stage-magician, with sleight-of-hand and so forth; the other is the image of the sword-and-sorcery mage who can wave his hands, say a few words and end up with a house standing on end.

This is not what Witches do, but we do consider our rituals magic . . .to avoid the wrong mental image, we add a k to the end of the word, changing association. ^^

Within my story, I use that real life distinction. "Magic" is what my elves and various mages do, things that have immediate impact that can be measured. "Magick" on the other hand, is reference to all the faith-based things, like rituals, prayers . . .they have an effect on magic and on the rest of the world, but one that's impossible to measure or really predict.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Talk about a list of names! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] I think I'd use them to name a kid too!

Oh, and LMP, I didn't pm you back, but thanks for the encouragement! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lothiriel Silmarien ]

[Naaramare]

And the world shall die of shock, for Naaramare is going to ask a question.

The circumstances around the creation of my current story are rather complicated and probably somewhat unique, but thinking about them got me to wondering.

I often feel less as if I'm writing this story and more as if this story is simply using me to get written. In short, to paraphrase an artist by the name of Ursula Vernon, this story has made me it's biatch.

Is this something that's a common experience? How much time do you spend, either directly or peripherally, thinking about your stories? Planning for them? Plotting?

[Eol]

writing an adquite story that you are satified with is a LOT of HARD work. My friend and I have spend endless hours discussion Interregnum from characters and questioning every aspect from their behavior to what they think the way they do.

The key to writing is to question what you write: WHAT, WHY, HOW and where. Ponder and brainstorm. There are many times that Interregnum has kicked by buttocks,however, I would take a break and do something else for a while until another groove(inspiration/ motivation) comes to me.

[Thinhyandoiel]

Is this something that's a common experience? How much time do you spend, either directly or peripherally, thinking about your stories? Planning for them? Plotting?

Most of my waking hours. It's insane. I completely agree. My story has me hooked, there is no escape. I find myself re-running scenes in my head, trying out different things that a character might say or do. I find myself just completely making up scenes that have absolutely no impact on the plot whatsoever, but are just fun to see. They're mostly arguements between two of my characters. I've used two of them that I thought up of, and only cuz I was able to fit them in somehow into the storyline.
I am redrawing my maps everyday, trying out different spellings of names, doodling little pics of Aven, drawing the Leafstone, polishing up the grammar and such of my language. Working out this one character who won't do anything...(still working on that guy! Yeesh! *pokes Gahren* please do something!) In short, my story has taken control of every waking thought in some way or another. I went to an animethon this weekend and during this one movie, there was a character with white hair and pointy ears and green eyes and all I could think of was how much he looked like Aven! Except...he was the bad guy...heheh. ^.^

[littlemanpoet]

Naarmare:
Talk about getting more information than you bargained for!... But thanks. It was enlightening, and I wasn't quite right in my guessing.

I often feel less as if I'm writing this story and more as if this story is simply using me to get written....Is this something that's a common experience? How much time do you spend, either directly or peripherally, thinking about your stories? Planning for them? Plotting?

I take a Jungian point of view on your first question; I like to think it's also Tolkienian. Yes, the story writes (and rights) me at least as much as I write (and right) it. I wouldn't have it any other way. I used to obssess on the story, but don't anymore. Not that I've somehow become better, it's just that having joined a local writers' group, and now an on line one, plus having other responsibilities, I just have to wait until I can get to it. When I do, it's total focus. In my current revision, I am doing far much more planning and plotting than ever. This is because most of the plot and character are already there in the first six or seven versions, and it's time to cut and splice and fill in where needed in order to make it work as story. There's still going to be some fresh writing because of some new stuff, which by the way has got me stopped at the moment (thanks a lot Nar [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ), but that's okay. As soon as I have it figured out what a certain professor is going to say and not say, and when a certain faerie princess is going to be revealed, and how pushy my protagonist is going to be, I'll be able to move on. (Like I said, thanks a lot Nar [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).

[Lila Bramble]

Ack, so much writing...*gets dizzy*

For my paladin name, he is just a regular peasant in a sense, and he is not knighted but his father was a paladin and taught him the ways of the white knightery. At that time, all white fighting and white magic is outlawed, so the paladin (he's young!) doesn't have a name like 'Sir __'. I was thinking of RPg sorta thing like...Locke?

[Rimbaud]

Hmmm...I have wanted to post on this thread for so long; work devours time from my hand. In any case, I have been writing for most of my life, and for the last twelve years on one particular work. Obviously in that time I have worked on numerous side-projects. Journalism pays the bills! Well, some of them.

In that time, the Muse has visited me on her own terms. 3am seems to be a popular time for her. Certainly never on a cloudy Saturday morning when I sit before a blank screen - or even a full one. I have no ability to grasp the ungraspable - indeed, I have now forgone that activity and simply wait with the patience I can muster. The time when the spark is not there, I spend in editing and improvements. Although, that too is much facilitated by Her presence.

[Nimiriel]

How much time do you spend, either directly or peripherally, thinking about your stories?

All the time! No matter what I'm thinking or doing, sooner or later (mostly sooner) I find myself thinking of my story again. I think It's mostly because I have a big problem: I know just how the start shall be, and how the main plot starts and ends, and how the first book ends, and how the next book starts and ends, BUT: I don't know how to get my main caracter from the start of the first book and into the main plot... but I'm working on it... all the time!

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Naarmare! How long do I personally spend on my story. Hm, let me think....I've been trying to write one for a couple months now I should say, and I ONLY have one character, and my storyline that isn't completely written out. All in a couple months time! Oh, wait shall I forget my ONE poem that I might fit in there.

Lila, I have this game Majesty and they have Paladins in it. I'm gonna play later and I'll get all the names they have for you. They name the little paladin people, so I'll just "borrow" them and post 'em back up here later.

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to AYWSF, Stephanos. Since Saxony Tarn is probably absent with brains boiling from the heat in CA, I'll do the honors and offer you a virtual AYWSF cup to fill with the virtual spirited beverage of your choice.

|_|)

Drink up and good health and good writing.

Well there you have the makings of another good question, friends: Do you wait for the Muse to strike? Do you have to? How often does She strike? and why the heck is she absent so much? And how do you think Tolkien handled this, or was he too far above us mere mortals to have this problem?

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Naarmare, I usually spend as much time as I can on my story. (forgot to add this part in) I think about it all the time, wondering what I could change, should I leave that part in, blah blah blah. But I didn't really get that far! I'm too picky. I want my characters names to be just perfect and I want my storyline COMPLETELY thought out. This surprises me though, I'm not usually the type of person to gradually work on things.

Nimiriel, I love that poem in your signature! Did you write that? (I like your name too)

[Naaramare]

Do you wait for the Muse to strike? Do you have to? How often does She strike?

Yes, yes and not often enough. I have triggers for m'darlin' muse (who happens to be uncommon and thus male, but that's okay), certain songs that will pinch him into action, but in the long run I just have to wait for him to strike me with the desire to write. This is always at inconvenient times like 1130 at night when I have to work at six the next morning.

and why the heck is she absent so much?

Because my muse and I have serious disagreements about how much angst and pain I will allow him to put my characters through. So he punishes me by abandoning me for long periods.

[Nimiriel]

Thank you Lothiriel Silmarien. Yes I wrote that after reading Legolas' song of the sea ten times... and my name is my own work too, it's going to be one of the characters in my story.

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Nimiriel ]

[Saxony Tarn]

my thanks, LMP, for taking over the bartender duties while i've been letting my brain cool down! And it's supposed to be pleasant all week -- huzzah. (maybe i can get some writing done!)

Good question Naaramare, and you're not alone. My stories tend to be written when they want to be, and when they take a holiday, nothing i can do will force them out. For example, Keviran (the band quoted earlier that LMP liked so much) was first written down loosely in a matter of weeks, then sat in the back of a box (and my brain) for TEN YEARS until a few things fell into place. Then it was like extracting a zipped file. Also in that box are enough incomplete stories that i'm determined to bring the one i'm working on now to a close whether it wants to be or not. (with enough ideas for a sequel, i think it will find an end. Just what end, though, depends on the volunteer beta readers' votes.)

And speaking of "Trust Me", it made it clear to me after about a month of trying NOT to write it that it was going to drive me mad if i didn't. So i write in the evenings (ambient temperature permitting) and red-pen the manuscript during breaks at work. Every day (with occasional evenings off to remind myself that i still have some semblance of a social life) This past weekend some missing lines in a pivotal scene came into form (my excuse for turning my back on the board for the weekend this time) and with luck, i'll be able to move it along toward its conclusion (taking down some hasty notes on where i expected it to go will prove to have been a wise move, i'm sure)

But since i can never depend on this erratic source of inspiration to be steady, i can easily talk myself out of trying to make a living at it. A friend of mine who does make his living at it sometimes has to provoke that creative flow to come when he needs it to -- at times i don't know how he does it (but i'm certain that nothing carrying a criminal charge is involved... B) )

This is a guy who believes he "was put on this Earth to tell stories" (and before you ask, FWW members, he's one of my contacts.)

|_|) <-- a toast to our Muses!

S.T.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Lila, I got the names. Here are the Paladin names I could find:

*Dyevanna the Proud
*Katra Stronghelm
*Gerada the Pious

And here are some other names I found, not Paladin, but oh well!

*Allyn
*Kalderon
*Eterian
*Sir Eldan Knightly
*Sir Baramar
*Sir Tremon
*Sir Sarion the Battlemaster

Hope I helped!